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Thread: Se PoLR or Se Creative?

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    Default Se PoLR or Se Creative?

    I'm trying to type one of my friends (let's call him Khaki). He definitely demonstrates dual-seeking and leading, however I am having trouble placing him as Beta or Alpha/LSI or LII.

    The other night he said to me:

    What's the opposite of hyper-vigilant? Hypo-vigilant? Yeah, that's so me. It never even occurs to me to be on the watch-out for any potential danger. I walk through the seediest areas at really awful hours - I've not trying to be macho or anything, but I just don't think about the danger I'm placing myself in.
    I've been wondering if that indicates Se PoLR or Se creative? I'm leaning toward Se PoLR. I think Se-creative might do the same things (walk around dangerous areas), but they would be conscious of the potential physical threats, assessed them and their action would indicate confidence in being any to handle potential danger.

    I think his statement shows an unawareness of force - manifested in this case by the lack of awareness or heeding of potential physical threats in his environment. It's something he doesn't think about or take much notice of, even though its obvious that its something he should consider.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by unefille; 09-20-2008 at 12:12 AM.
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    I make two assumptions:

    1. Your friend is not young, stupid, naive, and a coddled suburbanite that has never been in a potentially life threatening situation.
    2. The 'rough area' is actually a rough area; crime rates are higher in the area in question, etc.

    Then I suggest your friend is Se creative.

    An Se PoLR, given the two assumptions, would mitigate against attack using a weapon, or traveling with a friend, or choosing a different route.

    I suppose it is a question of how accurate your friend is assessing the situation, and if his response to the situation shows comfort with potential confrontation alongside a desire to not let anyone or anything make decisions for him.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Sounds like Se PoLR.
    Though if you're having trouble:
    think of Ne and how he uses that?
    is he status conscious?
    how does he handle conflict?
    is he practical?
    how is he with daily tasks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    I make two assumptions:

    1. Your friend is not young, stupid, naive, and a coddled suburbanite that has never been in a potentially life threatening situation.
    2. The 'rough area' is actually a rough area; crime rates are higher in the area in question, etc.

    Then I suggest your friend is Se creative.

    An Se PoLR, given the two assumptions, would mitigate against attack using a weapon, or traveling with a friend, or choosing a different route.

    I suppose it is a question of how accurate your friend is assessing the situation, and if his response to the situation shows comfort with potential confrontation alongside a desire to not let anyone or anything make decisions for him.
    Assumption 2 definitely stands. Assumption 1 I'm not able to say anything about as I've only known him for about 3 months. His background is middle-class and suburban, but what situations he has in fact been in, or not been in, I can't be certain of.

    He seems either unaware of, or not giving much regard to, the possibility that he should alter the route he's planning on taking. He acknowledges that from an objective, hindsight perspective, his actions might seem foolhardy, but he doesn't seem to take that into account as a factor that should influence what he plans to do.

    Is that consistent with Se-creative?

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    Sounds like Se PoLR.
    Though if you're having trouble:
    think of Ne and how he uses that?
    is he status conscious?
    how does he handle conflict?
    is he practical?
    how is he with daily tasks?
    I'm not sure how to answer those questions because of the nature of our friendship thus far, though I can come up with two examples that might be related to what you're talking about.

    Might be related to status and Ne PoLR -

    When discussing a thesis topic for him, I pointed out that his topic was perfect for a post-structuralist discourse analyst approach. He hesitated and confessed that he was reluctant to take that route because he felt that his work was more likely to be well-received or garner attention if he took a more 'established' approach, such as realist analysis. He doesn't see the point in pursuing ideas purely for their own sake; the project/thesis should have something relevant to say about how society actually operates and should 'make a mark' of some kind.

    Conflict -

    He's not argumentative for the sake of it, but if he feels that he's right, he rarely backs down. He'll say: 'yeah, yeah, I see your point BUT'. He doesn't back down under pressure. In our committee, there are a lot of 'big personalities' (haha, not least of which is mine) and debate can get very heated. Another guy who I've known longer and is definitely LII (let's call him Anodyne) tends to remain quiet in these discussions, possibly because it can be a little...combative? But the person I'm typing seems to remain fairly calm and unintimidated. I wasn't sure if it could be subtype difference or just individual difference, or type difference.

    How does Se PoLR manifest in debates (with say, a SEE, EIE, LSI, LSE, and LIE as the other participants - just to give an idea of the environment I'm talking about)?
    Last edited by unefille; 09-20-2008 at 12:13 AM.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Yeah, he sounds more LSI.

    Best thing to do, unefille, is to continue to observe him and your LII friend, and see what other discrepancies you come up with.

    My LII best friend won't back down in argument until he's got his point across - he's very forward in argument, but immediately after the conflict leaves the intellectual arena, he's a scaredy-cat; he'll play sneaky games and will make sarcastic and biting comments at you.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yeah, he sounds more LSI.

    Best thing to do, unefille, is to continue to observe him and your LII friend, and see what other discrepancies you come up with.

    My LII best friend won't back down in argument until he's got his point across - he's very forward in argument, but immediately after the conflict leaves the intellectual arena, he's a scaredy-cat; he'll play sneaky games and will make sarcastic and biting comments at you.
    Haha, huge difference would be I get along with this guy about 20 times better than I do with the LII (Anodyne). I sort of have to pull my claws in for the LII (I find him sort of finnicky and sort of Fe-drunk happy - he's the sort of guy for whom all of life's wonders come together when he's eating canapes, drinking imported beer, standing around with some pleasant company making anodyne conversation).

    But I don't want to declare my friend (Khaki) LSI solely because I like him more than the LII. That's pretty bad typing method lol.

    What do you mean by 'sneaky-games'? Do you mean he seems passive-aggressive?
    Last edited by unefille; 09-20-2008 at 12:14 AM.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    No, he'll pass up "subtle" comments about what you're doing; it's as if he's mocking your course of action, or about the way you speak, or something similar. He's quite competitive, but certainly not surface-competitive like, say... a Three . He's a 9w1.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    He's quite competitive, but certainly not surface-competitive like, say... a Three . He's a 9w1.


    The LII I'm not fond of is also 9w1. He just seems so...numbed. If he doesn't agree with what you're saying, he'll just sit there making little bitchy faces and not say anything. Argh, I want to slap him so badly sometimes.
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    Well, my friend tends to think that he has no right to impose upon those who hold different opinions from him, which frequently means he won't rise to a challenge, but rather expect you to make the first move. And, when you do, depending on how committed he's feeling, he may just not really give you a good fight.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    Sounds like Se PoLR.
    Though if you're having trouble:
    think of Ne and how he uses that?
    is he status conscious?
    how does he handle conflict?
    is he practical?
    how is he with daily tasks?
    In terms of Ne, this may be of some relevance:
    He's really into experimental economics, which is about running experiments on groups of people to discover economic phenomenon/rules. I see it as quite a Ne + Ti approach - the experiments that they come up with are very wideranging. For example, leaving envelops with money in them in classrooms and measuring how many are returned, in order to determine levels of altruism. I'm not saying his interest in this preclude being a LSI, but just pointing out he really excelled and enjoyed this subject.

    He shares bits of information he's randomly come across with me at times. Things he knows I'll be amused by/interested in. He always has interesting things to talk about, and he'll remember and bring up our common interests when we're talking together. We swap music, and I like his tastes.

    I wouldn't call him overly status conscious. I mean, it's definitely nothing over the top. He has a lot of personal connections to important people, but he never throws it around or even talks about it unless it is relevant. But I mean, that could just be demonstrating that he's not a tosser.

    He's never struck me as someone who is particularly phased by conflict - rather unaffected overall. He doesn't seem impractical. He is comfortable asking for help when he needs it - he rang me up to ask for help on a subject I'd previously done. If you ask him to do something, he'll follow up on it and he takes his obligations very seriously.

    He's involved in a lot of groups, at very high levels. But he knows his limits, and seems to not take on things he cannot genuinely commit to. He can take the initiative and set up something if he feels a need for it to be done, and he seems fairly comfortable approaching people to that end.

    Oh, a random anecdote: I remember one time when I gave him and his girlfriend a lift home, she and I talked the entire half-hour trip, mainly her recounting a story of something that had happened on their last holiday together, and he was completely silent in the back the entire way back. She made no attempt to include him in the conversation (though he was involved in the story), and he didn't seem overly bothered by that. When he was getting out of the car, he just smiled and said bye. (We have typed the girlfriend as probably ESI)

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Might be related to status and Ne PoLR -

    When discussing a thesis topic for him, I pointed out that his topic was perfect for a post-structuralist discourse analyst approach. He hesitated and confessed that he was reluctant to take that route because he felt that his work was more likely to be well-received or garner attention if he took a more 'established' approach, such as realist analysis. He doesn't see the point in pursuing ideas purely for their own sake; the project/thesis should have something relevant to say about how society actually operates and should 'make a mark' of some kind.
    Hmm, I'd want to add to this that the things you describe him mentioning are all things that his other department are extremely conscious of and emphasise in their honours students. So I suspect his view may be somewhat influenced by that as well.
    allez cuisine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Hmm, I'd want to add to this that the things you describe him mentioning are all things that his other department are extremely conscious of and emphasise in their honours students. So I suspect his view may be somewhat influenced by that as well.
    Sure, but it still struck me as odd. It's possible he's more influenced by his economics major; but I also undertook an economics minor and it would have been a major had I been allowed to overload more. He is possibly more influenced by economic thought than I am, but I think it's clear I am neither LSI nor LII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    In terms of Ne, this may be of some relevance:
    He's really into experimental economics, which is about running experiments on groups of people to discover economic phenomenon/rules. I see it as quite a Ne + Ti approach - the experiments that they come up with are very wideranging. For example, leaving envelops with money in them in classrooms and measuring how many are returned, in order to determine levels of altruism. I'm not saying his interest in this preclude being a LSI, but just pointing out he really excelled and enjoyed this subject.

    He shares bits of information he's randomly come across with me at times. Things he knows I'll be amused by/interested in. He always has interesting things to talk about, and he'll remember and bring up our common interests when we're talking together. We swap music, and I like his tastes.

    I wouldn't call him overly status conscious. I mean, it's definitely nothing over the top. He has a lot of personal connections to important people, but he never throws it around or even talks about it unless it is relevant. But I mean, that could just be demonstrating that he's not a tosser.

    He's never struck me as someone who is particularly phased by conflict - rather unaffected overall. He doesn't seem impractical. He is comfortable asking for help when he needs it - he rang me up to ask for help on a subject I'd previously done. If you ask him to do something, he'll follow up on it and he takes his obligations very seriously.

    He's involved in a lot of groups, at very high levels. But he knows his limits, and seems to not take on things he cannot genuinely commit to. He can take the initiative and set up something if he feels a need for it to be done, and he seems fairly comfortable approaching people to that end.

    Oh, a random anecdote: I remember one time when I gave him and his girlfriend a lift home, she and I talked the entire half-hour trip, mainly her recounting a story of something that had happened on their last holiday together, and he was completely silent in the back the entire way back. She made no attempt to include him in the conversation (though he was involved in the story), and he didn't seem overly bothered by that. When he was getting out of the car, he just smiled and said bye. (We have typed the girlfriend as probably ESI)



    Hmm, I'd want to add to this that the things you describe him mentioning are all things that his other department are extremely conscious of and emphasise in their honours students. So I suspect his view may be somewhat influenced by that as well.

    I was hesitant, but after this I can say I completely relate to what was described by unefille on her first post. And this post make LIE seem to be a possible typing. I can say that sometimes it has been very much a problem of mine, in the sense that I could have achieved much better results if I were able to worry a bit. Of course, I also could have missed some opportunities by being excessively worrisome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I was hesitant, but after this I can say I completely relate to what was described by unefille on her first post. And this post make LIE seem to be a possible typing. I can say that sometimes it has been very much a problem of mine, in the sense that I could have achieved much better results if I were able to worry a bit. Of course, I also could have missed some opportunities by being excessively worrisome.
    Hmmm, I have to admit LIE never came into either of our minds for him, though I'm considering it now.

    More information about Khaki:

    1. I not sure he and his girlfriend are duals, although the LIE-ESI dual pair has been described as 'robotic'. This would really give robotic a WHOLE NEW MEANING. They don't talk together when hanging out socially, but talk to other people. He will leave her alone and come have a conversation with us instead. They don't discuss what the other is doing in their various commitments either - he tends to ask me about a portfolio that I and his girlfriend both work on. She often reaches out to hold his hand and he will ignore her or drop it.

    2. During a 5 hour dinner with me and my SEE friend, it started out with her engaging him (she has a bit of a crush, I think - which is bad, since he has a girlfriend), but as the night wore on, it was mostly me and him talking and agreeing on various topics and arguing against her. He seems to respond to well, but doesn't have much of it himself. He gets along quite well (I think) with the SEE, but he often gets annoyed at the way she tells stories and will make little cutting remarks asking her to get to the point, or teasing her about her inability to set up a good 'punchline' to a story. I do this too, so it can seem like we're ganging up on her - but it's just teasing.

    3. He doesn't monologue a lot and he doesn't offer up extraneous information or factual details either. He tends to ask short, sharp questions and he's very to the point in the way he speaks. I can be very picky about the way people address themselves and if I think they're not getting to a point during a meeting, I often summarise what I think they're trying to say for them. Bad habit, I know. The point is, I've never done that with him.

    4. The car trip idolatrie described is slightly different from another car trip I had with him - I was giving him and the SEE a lift, and she sat in the front with me. We kept up a three way conversation the entire time and he contributed quite substantially through the entire time.

    5. He has very little interest in making money for the sake of making money, from what impressions I've gathered. lol, maybe that's just stereotyping LIEs, though.

    6. He randomly brings me things like CDs, books or magazines he thinks I might interested in, so I've started lending him things as well. He'll send texts and emails about what he thinks of the books I've lent him. He's also pretty good with running jokes and will send random emails continuing a joke from a few days or weeks ago. They'll usually be short but quite funny.
    Last edited by unefille; 09-20-2008 at 12:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    (I find him sort of finnicky and sort of Fe-drunk happy - he's the sort of guy for whom all of life's wonders come together when he's eating canapes, drinking imported beer, standing around with some pleasant company making anodyne conversation).
    Maybe I'm biased, but this sounds so Alpha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    But I don't want to declare my friend LSI solely because I like him more than the LII. That's pretty bad typing method lol.
    Generally it's not a good method, but since the reason you like him more is Se, I think it's relevant (c:
    I've heard the exact same thing from Kristiina when talking about the difference between LII and LSI.

    You also described a likely supervision of the SEE.

    Maybe the comparison with Idolatrie makes him look less Se?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Maybe the comparison with Idolatrie makes him look less Se?
    It's possible - the two LSIs who I know very well (idolatrie and my father) are both Se-subtype LSIs. I might be so accustomed to them that the Ti-subtype is harder for me to recognise.

    That and this guy is a 1w9 might make quite a difference comparing them to an 8w9 or a cp6w5 LSI, I guess.

    I'm not sure though: idolatrie thinks he doesn't 'feel' right. How alien would a different subtype be between two identicals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    That and this guy is a 1w9 might make quite a difference comparing them to an 8w9 or a cp6w5 LSI, I guess.

    I'm not sure though: idolatrie thinks he doesn't 'feel' right. How alien would a different subtype be between two identicals?
    I haven't even found a convincing subtype theory... that being said, Idolatrie feels pretty alien to me, precisely for her (apparent?) extroversion.
    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Maybe I'm biased, but this sounds so Alpha.
    lol. Yeah, Anodyne's very Alpha. I know more than my fair share of LIIs (probably natural since I know a lot of economics and law kids) and he's probably the most 'blissed out on Si and Fe' one I have ever met. His life's ambitious seems to just to be placed in a nice, gated environment where the 'ugly' parts of society are kept away, and he can just enjoy the benefits of conservative yuppie paradise: a beautifully dressed wife, dinner parties, golf on Sundays, wine-tasting...
    Last edited by unefille; 09-20-2008 at 12:14 AM.
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    The whole traditionalism/lack of creativity sounds LSI, but it could be an excuse for laziness, especially with regard to school projects. Not knowing how you get into situations is definitely not sensing type though. Intuitives are much more impulsive, absent-minded, and oblivious to their surroundings. Unless your friend wanted to go there subconsciously he would have avoided it. Sensing types always know where they are and what they are doing there, and LSIs are hard to phase, even in bad neighborhoods. The SEE is a little confusing, but it sounded more like supervision than conflicting because they did seem to mesh somewhat, and having his girlfriend being look-alike makes more sense than being super-ego because though they had different interests they didn't seem to fight much; I could also see an LII staying out of a conversation about himself by zoning out into his own world; an LSI would have to sit and watch it and would probably say something unless he was really embarrassed. LIIs are typically less vocal than LSIs; it says this in their description. As an LSI I will almost never back down in an argument and I have known many LIIs that might not care to argue, but I am sure that there are exceptions, especially depending on the debater's interest in the subject and audience (for instance, you said that your friend gets numb and makes faces when he is not interested in your position). What really gets me is that he is more asking than declarative; he asks short questions and is more interested in summaries than details. I have never known an LSI to be interrogative Reinin type. Not making money for money is more Alpha than any other quadra. Beta types are decisive, they prefer a high salary to workplace comforts. Being blissed out by Si seems like a very strong indication of LII hidden agenda (LSIs I have met do not waste time and prefer more structured environments to maintain). I would suggest LII just based on that. The last thing isn't from my experience, but apparently Alphas like to give each other gifts (such as CDs/magazines):

    Alphas show affection for others in the form of small practical services or gifts. Playful interactions are based around light teasing and making the partner laugh; Alphas create intimacy in a comfortable, welcoming, cozy atmosphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    lol. Yeah, he's very Alpha. I know more than my fair share of LIIs (probably natural since I know a lot of economics and law kids) and he's probably the most 'blissed out on Si and Fe' one I have ever met. His life's ambitious seems to just to be placed in a nice, gated environment where the 'ugly' parts of society are kept away, and he can just enjoy the benefits of conservative yuppie paradise: a beautifully dressed wife, dinner parties, golf on Sundays, wine-tasting...
    Someone should find him an ESE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    The whole traditionalism/lack of creativity sounds LSI, but it could be an excuse for laziness, especially with regard to school projects. Not knowing how you get into situations is definitely not sensing type though. Intuitives are much more impulsive, absent-minded, and oblivious to their surroundings. Unless your friend wanted to go there subconsciously he would have avoided it. Sensing types always know where they are and what they are doing there, and LSIs are hard to phase, even in bad neighborhoods. The SEE is a little confusing, but it sounded more like supervision than conflicting because they did seem to mesh somewhat, and having his girlfriend being look-alike makes more sense than being super-ego because they didn't seem to fight much; I could also see an LII staying out of a conversation about them by zoning into their own world; an LSI would have to sit and watch it. LIIs are typically less vocal than LSIs; it says this in their description. As an LSI I will almost never back down in an argument and I have known many LIIs that might not care to argue, but I am sure that there are exceptions, especially depending on the debater's interest in the subject and audience (for instance, you said that your friend gets numb and makes faces when he is not interested in your position). What really gets me is that he is more asking than declarative; he asks short questions and is more interested in summaries than details. I have never known an LSI to be interrogative Reinin type. Not making money for money is more Alpha than any other quadra. Beta types are decisive, they prefer a high salary to workplace comforts. Being blissed out by Si seems like a very strong indication of LII hidden agenda (LSIs I have met do not waste time and prefer more structured environments to maintain). I would suggest LII just based on that. The last thing isn't from my experience, but apparently Alphas like to give each other gifts (such as CDs/magazines):

    Alphas show affection for others in the form of small practical services or gifts. Playful interactions are based around light teasing and making the partner laugh; Alphas create intimacy in a comfortable, welcoming, cozy atmosphere.

    Ooops, sorry, some of the details got confused - one of the guys (who makes little faces, doesn't argue and is blisshed out on Si and Fe) is LII; the other guy who I'm trying to type might be LII: he's the one with the girlfriend, gives the gifts and is 'hypo-vigilant' (although I wouldn't say he's unaware of where he's going - just not concered/aware of potential danger in taking the path he does). I should go back and give them different names lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Ooops, sorry, some of the details got confused - one of the guys (who makes little faces, doesn't argue and is blisshed out on Si and Fe) is LII; the other guy who I'm trying to type might be LII: he's the one with the girlfriend, gives the gifts and is 'hypo-vigilant' (although I wouldn't say he's unaware of where he's going - just not concered/aware of potential danger in taking the path he does). I should go back and give them different names lol.
    That is actually not so important; the fact that your possibly LSI friend was more interested in summaries than details and asking short questions than having long monologues is totally in line with LII and another matter entirely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    That is actually not so important; the fact that your possibly LSI friend was more interested in summaries than details and asking short questions than having long monologues is totally in line with LII and another matter entirely.
    Hmm, I'm the one who is more interested in summaries than details, not him. What I meant to say is that I tend to 'summarise' information that comes out in a monological form when I'm engaged in a conversation with another person - I will tend to summarise their points for them if I feel that their communication is insufficiently 'to the point'.

    I don't feel the compulsion to do this with him because I feel that he conveys himself adequately, with clarity and is purposive in the way he talks and also gets to the point without needing any assistance to reframe his thoughts. Unlike Anodyne the LII, I feel this guy is able to prioritise is information according to relevance, but I was not certain that was entirely type-related (they're both intelligent guys, so it's not that related either).

    His question asking does not involve an upward inflection of the voice; they're more short sharp statements that do enjoin a response. He tends to make 'declarations' as well. Like, he'll think about something and then he'll say with certainty 'No, I don't think so' / 'No, that's wrong, it's like A.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Hmm, I'm the one who is more interested in summaries than details, not him. What I meant to say is that I tend to 'summarise' information that comes out in a monological form when I'm engaged in a conversation with another person - I will tend to summarise their points for them if I feel that their communication is insufficiently 'to the point'.

    I don't feel the compulsion to do this with him because I feel that he conveys himself adequately, with clarity and is purposive in the way he talks and also gets to the point without needing any assistance to reframe his thoughts. Unlike Anodyne the LII, I feel this guy is able to prioritise is information according to relevance, but I was not certain that was entirely type-related (they're both intelligent guys, so it's not that related either).

    His question asking does not involve an upward inflection of the voice; they're more short sharp statements that do enjoin a response. He tends to make 'declarations' as well. Like, he'll think about something and then he'll say with certainty 'No, I don't think so' / 'No, that's wrong, it's like A.'
    Oh ok. That still sounds like a dialogue, but it's probably irrelevant at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    I haven't even found a convincing subtype theory... that being said, Idolatrie feels pretty alien to me, precisely for her (apparent?) extroversion.
    now I've been REJECTED by the cool kids

    Though, on that, I can jive with the Socionic definition of introverted - that my energy is focused internally, and it works better when I think of it in terms of the Ij temperament. But for the common, non-Socionic definition of introvert, I'm definitely not one. It is really hard for me to overcome that definitional difference, because yeah, I don't like the tag of 'introverted'. But I also think my apparent extrovertedness is something I'm very much in control of. I am assertive when I want to. I choose to engage in social situations, because I need or want to. I mean, this is all intersecting with being 8w9 as well - I do not want anyone to be able to control me or dictate to me, so I put myself in a position where that can't happen. But when I don't care, or am not invested in whatever, I think I tend to turn inwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Someone should find him an ESE.
    God yeah. We're trying. Unfortunately the ESEs we know are like, our mothers and our gay best friend. So...not so much with the success there yet. I'm very fond of him, but I generally seem to have very good relations with LIIs.
    allez cuisine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    now I've been REJECTED by the cool kids
    Fuck you, I'm not a cool kid :-P

    I was saying that if you trust me on my type (ISTj-Ti 1w9), then the "alien" feeling is consistent. I don't trust my own typing beyond ISTj though.
    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Fuck you, I'm not a cool kid :-P

    I was saying that if you trust me on my type (ISTj-Ti 1w9), then the "alien" feeling is consistent. I don't trust my own typing beyond ISTj though.
    But I thought the LSIs were the cool kids by definition?!

    Hmm, actually yeah, the LSIs we're questioning are all possible Ti subtypes. I have zero problem seeing the other LSI-Se we know as my identical. I have accepted another guy as LSI-Ti, but I've always been more...uncertain of his type because I don't feel like I can look at him and go, 'yes, you are of my people.' Hmmm...food for thought for sure.
    allez cuisine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    He seems either unaware of, or not giving much regard to, the possibility that he should alter the route he's planning on taking. He acknowledges that from an objective, hindsight perspective, his actions might seem foolhardy, but he doesn't seem to take that into account as a factor that should influence what he plans to do.

    Is that consistent with Se-creative?
    I suggest it is not consistent with Se creative in that an Se creative would recognize the power/ social structure that exists. The 'bad' part of town is 'bad' for a reason, and de-emphasizing that awareness of the social/ environmental structure doesn't sound Se creative.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I was hesitant, but after this I can say I completely relate to what was described by unefille on her first post. And this post make LIE seem to be a possible typing. I can say that sometimes it has been very much a problem of mine, in the sense that I could have achieved much better results if I were able to worry a bit. Of course, I also could have missed some opportunities by being excessively worrisome.
    No, all it does it make EIE look more possible for you. unefille is certainly not an LIE. Neither are you though, so that's okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Generally it's not a good method, but since the reason you like him more is Se, I think it's relevant (c:
    I've heard the exact same thing from Kristiina when talking about the difference between LII and LSI.

    You also described a likely supervision of the SEE.

    Maybe the comparison with Idolatrie makes him look less Se?
    Yes! The Spirit is back. Long time no freedom of speech.

    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Ezra, it's not unefille saying those words, it's a person she knows. EIE are notorious for being concentrated on avoiding failure, it's actually LIEs and SLEs that are more likely to take risks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    How does Se PoLR manifest in debates (with say, a SEE, EIE, LSI, LSE, and LIE as the other participants - just to give an idea of the environment I'm talking about)?
    Se tends to not have relevance in debates. From an LII standpoint, it is not about defeating your enemy, but instead making a point or being understood.

    I suggest Se sees debates as arguments with a winner and loser, but an LII would have to put away feelings of respect or good will to use Se and defeat an opponent. A general anxiety follows for the LII despite either winning or losing the argument, if it is a combative argument. The LII behavior of 'not backing down' in a debate is confidence in the put forth, but ultimately making someone do something is not the point.

    Why force someone to do something? If they are wrong, and making a mistake, then let them.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    Se tends to not have relevance in debates. From an LII standpoint, it is not about defeating your enemy, but instead making a point or being understood.

    I suggest Se sees debates as arguments with a winner and loser, but an LII would have to put away feelings of respect or good will to use Se and defeat an opponent. A general anxiety follows for the LII despite either winning or losing the argument, if it is a combative argument. The LII behavior of 'not backing down' in a debate is confidence in the put forth, but ultimately making someone do something is not the point.

    Why force someone to do something? If they are wrong, and making a mistake, then let them.
    I have actually observed this behavior in LIIs, as if they are afraid they will be perceived as threatening when they are only defending their point. They are often shaken up later, despite winning or losing. When I debate I continue until winning is no longer an option, but I won't clarify my position unless asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yes! The Spirit is back. Long time no freedom of speech.

    WHAT IS THAT? I must have it. Munich I'm coming. I am speechless (yes I can still type).
    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    WHAT IS THAT? I must have it. Munich I'm coming. I am speechless (yes I can still type).
    Vodka is often made from potatoes, isn't it? So in a sense, vodka is often the 'spirit of potato' lol.
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Vodka is often made from potatoes, isn't it? So in a sense, vodka is often the 'spirit of potato' lol.
    Vodka was a shock too, but this thing has the image of potatoes! (c:
    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    unifille -- see if this helps in comparison

    I am being led to believe that my one of oldest my best friends is an LSI, who is also a counter-phobic E6. Although she does ignore danger, I think it is done more out of counter-phobic ignoring rather than lack of awareness.
    Hmmm, that's really interesting and something that actually makes sense. My friend (Khaki) always has this tenseness about him. The only other person who has that tenseness is his ESI girlfriend. They both seem to...almost 'vibrate' with a nervy tension, some sort of inner agitation.

    When you say:

    She could never be classified as not aware of it because on some level she is constantly seeing what goes on around her, and it registers in her eyes, her body language, and her tone even if she is not comfortable acknowledging it.
    what does it look like?

    With Khaki, his eyes are always darting about the room, like he's scanning the surroundings. He doesn't seem high strung, but not genuinely relaxed either. His speech is often a bit staccato. He's not skittish, but I 'feel' that he is. I've never been able to explain that vibe he gives off...
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Hmmm, that's really interesting and something that actually makes sense. My friend (Khaki) always has this tenseness about him. The only other person who has that tenseness is his ESI girlfriend. They both seem to...almost 'vibrate' with a nervy tension, some sort of inner agitation.

    With Khaki, his eyes are always darting about the room, like he's scanning the surroundings. He doesn't seem high strung, but not genuinely relaxed either. His speech is often a bit staccato. He's not skittish, but I 'feel' that he is. I've never been able to explain that vibe he gives off...
    I am always tense too, and sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. I think it has something to do with being Decisive + having + valuing but it is usually very pronounced in LSIs.
    Last edited by Nexus; 09-22-2008 at 05:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    My LSI friend, she is exactly like that. It wouldn't be the first thing you'd notice about her. You'd first notice her introversion and shyness. But when you get closer to her its pretty palpable.

    I wonder if that quality is the way Se valuing manifests in certain Se valuers...prioritizing observing position/motion/willpower.
    I do that tooo. .. but it's kind of in a passive way ... Although sometimes I use senses other than eyes ... Like I'll feel who's around etc.

    For me it kind of means I know where everyone's at. And I can pick up on changes etc.

    For what it's worth, if it wasn't for that, I'd probably not be able to be as responsive. Although I kind of "pull out" of being aware of some people - and I often don't respond when I can. I kind of guage whether it's necessary or not. But I'm pretty "ready" most of the time as far as things go like being able to have a lighter on hand if someone's going to have a cigarette etc. Although there are a few people who will be "more ready" than me; most of them tend to be quite domineering and/or players. Whereas I'm kind of in the background. But still able to respond quickly.

    When I was young, I used to be pretty good at getting in peoples way. Sometimes it'd seem like I could impress people with my ability to get in their way, and they'd try and throw me off course. And get past me. Although it was talked about how I could use my energy in more "constructive" ways and how I can be really "frustrating" and "don't know where to stop". I just encouraged people to use manners with me. And say that they don't want to play, if they don't want to play rather than lose their temper.

    But without monitoring peoples speed, position will power etc .. . it's much harder to get in their way. You have to be able to determine what it is that people will, or are likely to want, need desire etc. To be able to stop them getting it. And you have to be ready for their "disapproval" when you get in the way of what they want.

    It's also useful if people are fighting etc. And you want to be able to tell if things are going to get out of control or if they're within reasonable limits ... And to break up a fight only if it's *really* necessary. Because most people like to see a good fight.
    Last edited by Satan; 09-23-2008 at 01:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper
    I wonder if that quality is the way Se valuing manifests in certain Se valuers...prioritizing observing position/motion/willpower.
    Yes, prioritizing the observance of discrete, sporadic pieces of reality over the more continuous, compounding context of reality that is Si.
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    Quote Originally Posted by esper
    I find that the position/motion/willpower of objects in the world is both very discrete/sporadic and continuous/compounding. Maybe thats just my version of this vocabulary.
    Well yes, Se does expand, but it never connects anything, only divides reality into smaller discrete pieces. Si compounds experience within an externally-established context.
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