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Thread: Governments for the Quadras

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    Default Governments for the Quadras

    What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

    Alpha: True communism
    Beta: Dictatorship
    Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
    Delta: City-state Oligarchy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    What do you think would be the ideal government for each quadra? Brilliand and I thought of these:

    Alpha: True communism
    Beta: Dictatorship
    Gamma: Money-based (forgot the name of it)
    Delta: City-state Oligarchy
    Money-based is plutocracy.

    Gamma's government is of a plutocratic elite, diffuse enough to avoid any one person's dictatorship, and hereditary to a large degree, but not rigidly so.

    Delta's government I see rather as "small-town communitary values" with weak central government.
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    Delta - Tribal Community

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    Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.
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    There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.
    is this sarcastic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    is this sarcastic?
    Um...no?

    Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.
    +1

    There needs to be some form of self-sustaining mechanism like in Brave New World or 1984, otherwise anyone can come along as soon as the dictator dies and turn it into a democracy.

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...tional_quadras

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.
    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.
    Speaking of which...

    Beta - Fascism
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Beta: EMPIRE
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Um...no?

    Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.
    I wonder how much conflict is in fact instigated by Betas against Betas. Given the subjectivity of both and , two Beta factions can share the same socionics values and yet eerily different social and political values, notions of appropriateness etc.

    In those instances, it would very much be a fight to the death for the world you believe in bringing about. I just can't imagine Betas really getting into a conflict with Deltas; it would be like trying to sledgehammer cotton-wool. Blood and Iron and all that good stuff: Beta v Beta. Maybe Gamma can play a little as well.
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Um...no?

    Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I wonder how much conflict is in fact instigated by Betas against Betas. Given the subjectivity of both and , two Beta factions can share the same socionics values and yet eerily different social and political values, notions of appropriateness etc.
    You have just explained a lot of the world's history in this single paragraph.

    The fight between Soviet-style communism and Nazi-style fascism is not really between "extreme left" and "extreme right", as if they were opposite extremes of a continuum of the same scale. That fight was - is - precisely between two Beta factions of different subjective and social and political values.

    A recent example is in South Africa, where I lived for 2 years. The colonial Gamma-Delta "traditional British Empire patronizingly conservative" regime was replaced in 1948 with the ideological hard-line Afrikaner nationalist- socialist regime of apartheid (Afrikaans for "apartness") of the National Party. That regime gave rise to the equally Beta revolutionaries of Mandela's ANC - which, up to 1989, was officially communist in ideology.

    The regime in South Africa has been democratic since 1994, but the ruling party, the ANC, is still driven by Beta "instincts".


    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    In those instances, it would very much be a fight to the death for the world you believe in bringing about.
    Pretty much so.


    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I just can't imagine Betas really getting into a conflict with Deltas; it would be like trying to sledgehammer cotton-wool.
    What happens, in reality, is that Deltas, in particular Delta NFs, mistake Beta revolutionaries - before achieving power - for people like themselves. They are what Lenin had in mind when he coined the phrase "useful idiots".


    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Blood and Iron and all that good stuff: Beta v Beta. Maybe Gamma can play a little as well.
    Gamma's role is to preserve the existing, working, world against the + Beta ideologies.

    In WWII, the US and Britain acted as the Gamma forces to defeat first one Beta faction, in temporary alliance with the other. The Cold War was the focus on containing the other Beta faction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Betas are creepy...
    Seriously.

    Tribal sounds good. Or anarchy with some rules. I really hate power hungry ANYTHING
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille
    Beta: EMPIRE
    That reminded me of the movie Empire with John Leguazano (or however you spell it). In retrospect, it was pretty beta-esque, in some ways. Like the opening line where he says "You see that car? (//new black lincoln navigator) It's mine. And I park it here. But nobody will touch it. You know why? Respect." Such things point to the governed street hierarchy, and also status, which was consistently demonstrated in the movie IMO (and dude gets plugged at the end...shame...but it's all about power).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I don't know about other Deltas, but anarchy (with some rules) or democracy seems to fit me better. I can't stand elitism in any form. (weak point, I know...)

    Oligarchy might work if any person in the elite was in leadership position for only a short period of time, and if everyone in the society sooner or later would have to serve as part of the elite. No fixed elite, so to say.

    I don't say it is effective. I just thought it would be more Delta.
    That's what I thought at first, but with an anarchy we might get disorganized, and how do we stop the Betas from invading if there's nobody to coordinate movements?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    Delta - Tribal Community
    Precisely! But I reffered to it as a city-state oligarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I just can't imagine Betas really getting into a conflict with Deltas; it would be like trying to sledgehammer cotton-wool...
    Lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I don't know about other Deltas, but anarchy (with some rules) or democracy seems to fit me better.
    To be delta I think the nation has to be something like this:

    Sensible implementation of ideas, each implementation being based on the case at hand (not consistency of ideas) nothing rash or stupid being done.
    Avoiding excessive harshness (on the general population) when it comes to implementing policies, unless absolutely necessary (probably less so in places and times that are violent).

    Conservative, risk avoidance, tons of clever back-up plans, stable, prosperous etc.

    ^^That's probably more Te/Fi.

    Anarchy makes no sense from a purely Te perspective (ignores basic principles about how everything works) and it's risky to implement, anarchy is probably Alpha (it has a lot of hippy overtones) or Beta depending on it's type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Um...no?

    Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.
    really? i was thinking of the vast number of beta revolutionaries there have been. in the sort of cyclical sense of how beta seems to work, i don't see grassroots revolutions as anything out of line with beta quadra values. if you don't like the current authoritarian government, overthrow it and get a new authoritarian government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Dictatorship leaves too much room for grassroots revolution to suit Beta.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    There needs to be another beta extermination campaign.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Speaking of which...

    Beta - Fascism
    No. Fascism = Beta.

    Actually, I think if I was the dictator or part of the high command, I could dig fascism. I would happily rule over the scum of the earth (90% of the world; oh, BurntOrange, don't you just LOVE that figure ).

    Even better: an oligarchy. Instead of the cult of the leader, you have... the cult of the leaders! YES. Gilly, you and I will begin this.

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Beta: EMPIRE
    HEIL THE FOURTH REICH!
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I would happily rule over the scum of the earth (90% of the world; oh, BurntOrange, don't you just LOVE that figure ).
    ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    That's more or less what I meant by anarchy with rules... Weigh every situation and not have general rules. The only rule you would need then is "be nice to people".
    But it's not sensible, people are just not going to be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Betas are creepy...
    .



    Tribal community where most of stuff is decided by common sense depending on the issue at hand! Yarrr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I see. But in my "ideal government" (ruled by all people) there shouldn't be any power people... In that case it is not ideal.

    If we have to include the other quadras, I'll go for an elite including ONLY deltas.
    Actually the idea was to have 4 seperate countries; in a square like this.

    Beta Gamma
    Alpha Delta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Hehehe... Sounds even better. Could I keep my Alpha husband with me?
    Sure! You can live on the border. And you can keep any non-Delta kids until they're 16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    really? i was thinking of the vast number of beta revolutionaries there have been. in the sort of cyclical sense of how beta seems to work, i don't see grassroots revolutions as anything out of line with beta quadra values. if you don't like the current authoritarian government, overthrow it and get a new authoritarian government.
    Exactly.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    You say I'd have to send my BETA son away at 16??? To them evil betas??? Think what evils my good influence could save him form!
    Lol. 'Course being a beta, he may prefer to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Exactly.

    i was thinking of the cuban revolution honestly. at any rate, i find it incredibly ironic that betas are complaining about how much "room" there is for revolution, when i see revolts as almost something central to how beta works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Even better: an oligarchy. Instead of the cult of the leader, you have... the cult of the leaders! YES. Gilly, you and I will begin this.
    I'm ready when you are.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I just felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if a couple million souls suddenly cried out in terror ...
    What? Oh yeah, those guys. Yeah, they had hook noses. They had to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    You say I'd have to send my BETA son away at 16??? To them evil betas??? Think what evils my good influence could save him form!
    "Those" evil Betas, "those".

    Then again, what could one possible expect from a Ti PoLR.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    There is a difference between you? I thought you all wanted power??
    Some just want lots of teh Sex.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Betas separate those?
    Do Deltas not?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Do Deltas not?
    No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Most grassroots revolutions have occurred under oppressive dictatorial regimes, and I'd see the revolutionaries as being more likely to have Beta values than an entrenched dictatorship, or at least equally likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    really? i was thinking of the vast number of beta revolutionaries there have been. in the sort of cyclical sense of how beta seems to work, i don't see grassroots revolutions as anything out of line with beta quadra values. if you don't like the current authoritarian government, overthrow it and get a new authoritarian government.
    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i was thinking of the cuban revolution honestly. at any rate, i find it incredibly ironic that betas are complaining about how much "room" there is for revolution, when i see revolts as almost something central to how beta works.

    It looks like my original point got somewhat misinterpreted here, perhaps due to lack of explanation on my part.

    I said that I didn't think dictatorship was a Beta form of government because dictatorships often breed grassroots revoluntionary campaigns. Thus a structure which is so vulnerable to such overthrow is not likely to be Beta. This was working on the presumption that a dictatorship is led by one person, and implemented by an empowered body. I was actually thinking exactly of the Cuban revolution - overthrow of a corrupt dictator who ruled on the back of a military coup, by a group of revolutionaries who seemed to say 'this is not the right way of doing things, we need to implement a new system'. (Se + Ti)

    Based off my admittedly hasty consideration of the topic when I first posted, I thought that a dictatorship was too internally vulnerable a system to be claimed as 'the' Beta form of government. I'd go with something more like a ruling aristocracy, oligarchy or, yes, the 'empire' thing instead. Having a broader base of influence through a less vulnerable leadership seems more Fe than extolling a single leader who due to his 'single' state would never be able to have the reach of a group/class of leaders, nor is the power base protected if that leader falters. (Which I was reading in a more Fi light - that the appeal of the single leader would remain constant and be the basis of his support. Though if that lagged, force could be used to maintain that power: Se. You can probably see where I'm going with that line of thought...Gamma>Beta.)

    So I was essentially saying that grassroots revolutions are more Beta than dictatorships, though not discounting the attribution to Beta of the latter. I don't quite know what you thought I said. I do take your point, however, that the dictatorship-revolution-dictatorship cycle in whole could be seen as countervailing Beta movements. But I was disputing that dictatorship alone is the Beta mode of government.
    allez cuisine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    There is a difference between you? I thought you all wanted power??
    EIEs attempt for power, but really it's the LSIs in the backroom who are the driving force. Hitler was never powerful. LSIs like Himmler, Reinhard and Rommel were the key to Nazi victory.

    SLEs are powerful, and IEIs love this. IEIs just make predictions and bend over.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    SLEs are powerful, and IEIs love this. IEIs just make predictions and bend over.
    Being a pussy social visionary who follows their tough, confident leader dualz ftw!!


    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Gamma's role is to preserve the existing, working, world against the + Beta ideologies.
    Following from this, do Gammas also have the role of 'maintaining' the system and taking it over from the Betas?

    My train of thought is: Beta governments seem inherently unstable and they can be so for multiple reasons, but the primary one strikes me that once all the and is exhausted (once the 'vision' is established and 'expansion' is ended), the government becomes unstable due to lack of . If they maintain the same structures and idea of governance without any reference to changes in the external world, then things can 'stop working'. Therefore Beta instability isn't cause by volatility within the government, but in fact calcification of a model.

    On the other hand, Gammas and Deltas would be good at 'maintaining' the model once it's set up, making adjustments on the fly according to , however the overhaul of the old system and creation of a new system would require another Beta 'revolution' (so to speak).

    Does that make sense? And if so, what role does Alpha have in the progression or happenstance of history?
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Following from this, do Gammas also have the role of 'maintaining' the system and taking it over from the Betas?
    As far as the system is seen to work: yes, but see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    My train of thought is: Beta governments seem inherently unstable and they can be so for multiple reasons, but the primary one strikes me that once all the and is exhausted (once the 'vision' is established and 'expansion' is ended), the government becomes unstable due to lack of . If they maintain the same structures and idea of governance without any reference to changes in the external world, then things can 'stop working'. Therefore Beta instability isn't cause by volatility within the government, but in fact calcification of a model.
    I think that "calcification" is a better word than "unstable". The problem of Beta governments is precisely as you put it: by being more concerned with the "purity of the model" than whether or not it actually works, it tends to become stagnated.

    Beta governments flourish best in situations of continuous, intensive war.


    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    On the other hand, Gammas and Deltas would be good at 'maintaining' the model once it's set up, making adjustments on the fly according to , however the overhaul of the old system and creation of a new system would require another Beta 'revolution' (so to speak).
    The SEE Mikhail Gorbachev played precisely such a role - or tried to play - in the USSR. The Beta system was clearly failing to perform in , yet the system itself was taken for granted by most. It fell to the Gamma Gorbachev to try to make it work - adjustments, as you say - rather than destroy it.

    It could be argued that it wook another Beta - the SLE Boris Yeltsin - to take the lead in destroying the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Does that make sense? And if so, what role does Alpha have in the progression or happenstance of history?
    One remark: there are also "Gamma revolutions", but they are usually in the form of spreading what has been seen to work, or of stopping Beta revolutions as they are starting - that is, Gammas are "reactionaries".

    Alpha is essentially pre-government, while Delta is post-government. So Alpha's role is to "ask for government", and generating "in the air" the ideas that eventually Beta will choose to implement.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    I said that I didn't think dictatorship was a Beta form of government because dictatorships often breed grassroots revoluntionary campaigns. Thus a structure which is so vulnerable to such overthrow is not likely to be Beta.
    Well, life sucks. By that I mean that being "so vulnerable to such overthrow" is not their intention, but a feature nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    This was working on the presumption that a dictatorship is led by one person, and implemented by an empowered body. I was actually thinking exactly of the Cuban revolution - overthrow of a corrupt dictator who ruled on the back of a military coup, by a group of revolutionaries who seemed to say 'this is not the right way of doing things, we need to implement a new system'. (Se + Ti)
    And I think this is an accurate analysis as far as it goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Based off my admittedly hasty consideration of the topic when I first posted, I thought that a dictatorship was too internally vulnerable a system to be claimed as 'the' Beta form of government. I'd go with something more like a ruling aristocracy, oligarchy or, yes, the 'empire' thing instead. Having a broader base of influence through a less vulnerable leadership seems more Fe than extolling a single leader who due to his 'single' state would never be able to have the reach of a group/class of leaders, nor is the power base protected if that leader falters. (Which I was reading in a more Fi light - that the appeal of the single leader would remain constant and be the basis of his support. Though if that lagged, force could be used to maintain that power: Se. You can probably see where I'm going with that line of thought...Gamma>Beta.)
    The problem with this is that it presupposes total agreement among the group, and total agreement in something as internal as + is nearly impossible. That is why Beta governments end up having one source of supreme ideological "correctness" - which may even be listened to, or followed, for pragmatical reasons, as in "he's right only 90&#37; of the time but better that than someone who's right 70% of the time).

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    So I was essentially saying that grassroots revolutions are more Beta than dictatorships, though not discounting the attribution to Beta of the latter.
    Could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    however, that the dictatorship-revolution-dictatorship cycle in whole could be seen as countervailing Beta movements. But I was disputing that dictatorship alone is the Beta mode of government.
    I'd say that what characterizes Beta is this:

    "tireless struggle for the implementation and defense of their ideas, of whose correctness they are persuaded".

    This has two sides:

    - before reaching power: tireless struggle to be able to implement them
    - after reaching power: tireless struggle to keep them implemented, which implies ruthless fight against all "erroneous" ideas

    Which brings us back to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Having a broader base of influence through a less vulnerable leadership seems more Fe than extolling a single leader who due to his 'single' state would never be able to have the reach of a group/class of leaders, nor is the power base protected if that leader falters.
    Yes, which is why Beta is as keen on persuading others of the rightness of their ideas as just imposing them.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  38. #38
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Following from this, do Gammas also have the role of 'maintaining' the system and taking it over from the Betas?
    Imagine if Nazi Germany had flourished. After a while, Gammas would have had their chance.

    My train of thought is: Beta governments seem inherently unstable and they can be so for multiple reasons, but the primary one strikes me that once all the and is exhausted (once the 'vision' is established and 'expansion' is ended), the government becomes unstable due to lack of . If they maintain the same structures and idea of governance without any reference to changes in the external world, then things can 'stop working'. Therefore Beta instability isn't cause by volatility within the government, but in fact calcification of a model.
    Absolutely. This is what happened in Germany, and what - for much longer - occurred in Sparta and, later, Rome (probably the most successful). Betas are needed to overhaul the common order and make the social change no one will make. Gammas are needed to continue this with the future in mind. Deltas would be the people who just get on with their jobs.

    Does that make sense? And if so, what role does Alpha have in the progression or happenstance of history?
    They don't.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Absolutely. This is what happened in Germany, and what - for much longer - occurred in Sparta and, later, Rome (probably the most successful). Betas are needed to overhaul the common order and make the social change no one will make. Gammas are needed to continue this with the future in mind. Deltas would be the people who just get on with their jobs.
    I disagree that Rome was Beta, at least during its classical period. I think Rome was Beta only at its earliest stage - the ancient Kings - but Gamma during the Republic and the early Empire, becoming Beta again during the late period, after the third century AD.

    This article, How excessive government killed ancient Rome , makes a simplistic analysis based on anachronistic assumptions; but it does give an (Gamma-biased) idea of the essentially Gamma structure of classical Rome, and how it became Beta under Diocletian and Constantine.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think this is a really fascinating topic. Part of the thesis I'm writing right now is about Imperial China and the Imperial Chinese cosmology seems very Beta and, from a holistic perspective, exclusively Beta (which is interesting in and of itself).

    Some reasons:

    1. Based on strong centralised government, with a clearly delineated and enforced hierarchy of power leading up the Emperor who occupied the apex. (Se + Ti)

    2. Cyclical dynastic history - (oversimplifying a lot): each new dynasty would emerge from chaotic warfare incredibly strong and often expansionist. This 'glory' period would last for a few centuries at most, whilst the Empire expanded and fought wars in order to consolidate power. Decline would then inevitably set it and the empire would be plunged into warfare, until a new Dynasty arose, only to repeat the cycle. (Ni + Ti)

    3. The system (the Imperial system) and the cosmology (world-view with legitimated empire) lasted despite the repeated demise of each dynasty and individual glory was only remembered with respect to the dynasty/empire it served; revolutionaries or those who sought to overthrow the system are vilified, unless of course they erect their own dynasty, then they become heroes: Ti/Fe > Te/Fi.

    4. There was a singular doctrine (Confucian cosmology) - all scholars afterward studied his work and gave new interpretation to the classics and the Confucian classics formed the basis of the examination system for entry into the bureaucracy. Essentially, one ideology became calcified as the ONLY ideology and was institutionalised. (Ni + Se + Ti)

    5. 'Empire' came before 'individual'. Ti/Fe > Te/Fi

    What's interesting to me is that this 'model' essentially preserved itself for millennia. It was not a 'stable' model since was prone to complete collapse as each dynasty declined and plunged into warfare, but the 'model' itself remained intact and survived each period of chaos only to be resurrected.
    ()
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