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Thread: ashton's writeup on model X

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    Default ashton's writeup on model X

    here it is:

    Model X

    Ashton & Sarah, from socionix.com, had noticed that the Model-A dual seeking function seemed prominent in all J subtypes, (which for a Ti ENTp is Si), and the hidden agenda function prominent in P subtypes. They drew out a model where each subtype is now regarded as a separate type (a Ne ENTp is a different type from a Ti ENTp).

    In Model X, all of the quadra functions for a type are considered strong, and the non-quadra functions weak. For example, a Ti ENTp will have all four Alpha Quadra functions as strong (Ti Ne Si Fe), and the non-quadra functions (Ni Te Se Fi) as weak. The model lists these strong quadra valued functions first (Mode, Utility, Agenda, Activation), the first two quadra unvalued functions (5,6: Shadow, Occlusion) are weaker and not preferred, while the weakest functions are listed last (7,8: Aversion and Immobilization).

    1st function: Mode – Essentially person’s primary “mode” of looking at reality - the language a type interprets reality with – automatic - This function is always on and constantly aware.

    2nd function: Utility – A function not always on, but instead is used as a tool. The person activates this function himself. It is not always a constant focus of awareness, and is used selectively to assist the mode and/or agenda. While a person does have mastery of this function, the function is used in a narrower range than the agenda, of which the person has a much broader understanding.

    3rd function: Agenda – This is essentially what life is about for a person. It is their central motivation; central tendency in life, the stuff they will pay attention to the most, stuff that gives color to what they do – setting the context for their life. Their understanding of the agenda will really be broad. “If you look at the person\'s actions, thoughts, feelings, desires, etc. in life, you\'ll see an aggregation towards the agenda. It is what colors their life.”-Ashton. The agenda is always constantly aware – always on.

    4th function: Activation – A function that is not always on, and one that must be activated by an outside source, whether by another person, situation, or idea, and something the person can enjoy very much. It lies within a person and is awakened. The person tends to use this function in bursts, is unfocused, and the function is not as “mature” as the other three quadra functions. \"turned on, initiated, activated\" by something else, and it usually comes in bursts and is pretty unfocused.”

    5th function: Shadow – A function that lies underneath the mode and utility - the person can kind of understand it decently, but still usually has to translate information from this function into their own language. This function in essence lies in the shadow of the corresponding focused function. (If shadow function is Te, than Te lies in the shadow of Ti).

    6th function: Occlusion – Similar to the phenomenon of an \"occluded weather front\", where a cold front overtakes a warm front or vise versa, the occlusion basically slips under the radar and doesn’t really get any attention. Essentially this function is occluded by its corresponding focused function (if occlusion function is Ni, then occluded by Ne).

    7th function: Aversion – A function that\'s seen as pretty disgusting, and the person reacts aversely to it. It gives the person a bad taste in their mouth, but they are not immobilized by it. (It’s more like tasting something sour and cringing to it) the function is basically a major turnoff for the person.

    8th function: Immobilization – This is a function where the person becomes paralyzed, and doesn\'t know what to do - it basically just plain \"immobilizes\" them. It that is avoided at all costs and/or countered aggressively with the mode, depending on the subtype. Any type (subtype) with a perceiving function as an agenda will have a counterphobic reaction to their immobilization. Essentially, all P sub J-types (such as Ni ENTj) and all J sub P-types (such as Ti ENTp) will react counterphobically to their immobilization, and J sub J-types (such as Ti INTj) and P sub P-types (such as Ni INTp) will react phobically. With a phobic response, the person will hide from it and hope it goes away, whereas a with a counter-phobic response, the person will come out and directly attack it.

    • Another aspect of Model X is that Judging subtypes tend to get along better with other Judging subtypes and that Perceiving subtypes tend get along better with other Perceiving subtypes (ignoring all other factors). For example, an ENTp-Ti (Ti being a judging function) will tend to get along better with an ISFp-Fe (Fe being another judging function) than with an ISFp-Si (Si being a perceiving function).
    • This idea about inter-subtype relations called for the existence of sub-quadras, or “octants”, such as the Alpha-Judging Octant, and the Alpha-Percieving Octant.
    • Another key principle is that All four quadra functions are strong for each type, whereas Model A had 2 strong valued functions and 2 weak valued functions.
    • Also, it is important to understand the different nature of the utility function versus the agenda function, and that even though the utility function is listed as a strong function in a person’s four letter type (ex: Ti ENTp), they do not have as broad an understanding of the function or as wide a range of use with it as they do their agenda function (Si for a Ti ENTp):

    Ashton described likened it to the following analogy: Take an ISFp-Fe. Let\'s compare their utility function to a hammer (an ISFp-Fe’s utility function is Si., so pretend that an ISFp-Fe’s Si is a hammer. “The person would be very good at using the hammer and banging nails into boards when he needs to, but he doesn\'t really understand hammers that well, it just doesn\'t occur to him and he doesn’t much care. He just bangs stuff when he needs to and he’s good at it. Whereas with a type that has Si as an agenda (Ti ENTp, for example) it would be like having an understanding of the hammer, what it does, how it does it, what it feels like in the hand; feeling the hammer as if it were an extension of your own body, and the person has that sort of one-ness with it.” (original wording, different type and functions substituted)

    32-Subtype Model X Functional Breakdown:

    Alpha Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Ti ENTp: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, Te, Ni, Se, Fi
    Fe ISFp: Fe, Si, Ne, Ti, Fi, Se, Ni, Te
    Fe ESFj: Fe, Si, Ti, Ne, Se, Fi, Te, Ni
    Ti INTj: Ti, Ne, Fe, Si, Ni, Te, Fi, Se

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Ne ENTp: Ne, Ti, Fe, Si, Te, Ni, Se, Fi
    Si ISFp: Si, Fe, Ti, Ne, Fi, Se, Ni, Te
    Si ESFj: Si, Fe, Ne, Ti, Se, Fi, Te, Ni
    Ne INTj: Ne, Ti, Si, Fe, Ni, Te, Fi, Se

    Beta Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Ti ESTp: Ti, Se, Ni, Fe, Te, Si, Ne, Fi
    Fe INFp: Fe, Ni, Se, Ti, Fi, Ne, Si, Te
    Fe ENFj: Fe, Ni, Ti, Se, Ne, Fi, Te, Si
    Ti ISTj: Ti, Se, Fe, Ni, Si, Te, Fi, Ne

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Se ESTp: Se, Ti, Fe, Ni, Te, Si, Ne, Fi
    Ni INFp: Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, Fi, Ne, Si, Te
    Ni ENFj: Ni, Fe, Se, Ti, Ne, Fi, Te, Si
    Se ISTj: Se, Ti, Ni, Fe, Si, Te, Fi, Ne

    Gamma Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Fi ESFp: Fi, Se, Ni, Te, Fe, Si, Ne, Ti
    Te INTp: Te, Ni, Se, Fi, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Te ENTj: Te, Ni, Fi, Se, Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
    Fi ISFj: Fi, Se, Te, Ni, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Se ESFp: Se, Fi, Te, Ni, Fe, Si, Ne, Ti
    Ni INTp: Ni, Te, Fi, Se, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Ni ENTj: Ni, Te, Se, Fe, Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
    Se ISFj: Se, Fi, Ni, Te, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne

    Delta Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Fi ENFp: Fi, Ne, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Se, Ti
    Te ISTp: Te, Si, Ne, Fi, Ti, Se, Ni, Fe
    Te ESTj: Te, Si, Fi, Ne, Se, Ti, Fe, Ni
    Fi INFj: Fi, Ne, Te, Si, Fe, Ni, Ti, Se

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Ne ENFp: Ne, Fi, Te, Si, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Si ISTp: Si, Te, Fi, Ne, Ti, Se, Ni, Fe
    Si ESTj: Si, Te, Ne, Fi, Se, Ti, Fe, Ni
    Ne INFj: Ne, Fi, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Ti, Se

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    In examining Model X, I began to recognize a pattern regarding the relationship between the nature of the mode and agenda functions (1st and 3rd functions on the list above respectively; the functions that are always constantly aware).

    • If you notice, all of the Perceiving TYPES (which includes both subtypes, [ex: ENTp-Ti AND ENTp-Ne] have a split between their mode and agenda functions, where one function is a judging function and the other is a perceiving function. For example, an ENTp-Ti will have a Ti (a judging function) mode and Si (a perceiving function) agenda, and an ENTp-Ne will have a Ne (a perceiving function) mode and an Fe (a judging function) agenda.

    • The Judging TYPES (which includes both subtypes, [ex: ESFj-Fe, AND ESFj-Si) do not have this same split between the mode and agenda functions. Instead, the Mode and Agenda functions are either BOTH Perceiving functions, or BOTH judging functions. For example an ESFj-Fe will have a Fe (a judging function) mode, and a Ti (another judging function) agenda, and an ESFj-Si will have a Si (a perceiving function) mode and a Ne (another perceiving function) agenda.

    This difference between mode/agenda split vs. double hints at a fundamental difference in temperament between Judging TYPES and Perceiving TYPES.

    I continued to think about the nature of each function to try to figure out what this fundamental difference was in terms of breaking each function down to its information elements (as defined at the way beginning of this guide). Sure enough, there existed a pattern and a difference between J and P types in the information elements as well.

    If we look at an ENTp-Ne sub, the person has a Ne (Internal Statics of Objects) mode, and an Fe (Internal Dynamics of Objects) agenda. The ENTp-Ti sub on the other hand has a Ti (External Statics of Fields) mode, and a Si (External Dynamics of Fields) agenda. As you can see from the highlighted words, each subtype (Ne and Ti sub) of this particular perceiving type (ENTp) have either BOTH their mode and agenda functions as object functions, or BOTH their mode and agenda as field functions. So, for all Perceiving Types, the person will have either BOTH their mode and agenda functions as object functions, or BOTH their mode and agenda as field functions

    There is a difference though with Judging types. If we look at a Fe ESFj, the person has a Fe (internal dynamics of objects) and a Ti (internal statics of fields) agenda. The Si ESFj on the other hand has a Si (external dynamics of fields) mode and a Ne (internal statics of objects) agenda. Judging Types will have a split between objects and fields with their mode and agenda functions.

    An image of a street intersection occurred to me, with the mode function being the street the person started on, and the agenda function being the street the person ended up on after passing through the intersection. The street metaphor is illustrated below:



    This diagram illustrates the pattern I discussed in the above paragraphs. In this street analogy, a Perceiving Type (Irrational) will either start on Object Street and Continue on Object Street, or Start on Field Street and Continue on Field Street. All types (Both Perceiving and Judging) go from either a static mode to a dynamic agenda, or a dynamic mode to a static agenda. Contrary to P-types that stay on the same street, if you look at J types, they either start on Object Street and change to Field Street, or start on Field Street and change to Object Street.

    This metaphor illustrates the difference between Judging types and Perceiving types. If you think of the differences between the “cruising through” vs. “stopping and turning” mentalities, each represents a different style of experiencing reality, and it especially yields a different type of temperament for each. Perceiving types (of both subtypes) have the more \"cruising through life\" temperament, and information seems to flow in a more parallel sense for them, since their two main areas of focus are of parallel information elements: 2 fields or 2 objects. Judging types are constantly stopping and turning. There\\'s a deliberateness that comes with that which you\\'ll see in the way J-types move, talk, and act. Even with P sub J types, they will still have the deliberateness, but it\\'ll be more internal. Some may seem irrational and P-ish on the surface, but you\\'ll still be able to detect this deliberateness of the J temperament.

    Carl Jung actually discusses the difference in temperaments of Extraverted and Introverted Rationals (J-types) and Extraverted and Introverted Irrationals (P-types). You can read his descriptions here:

    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

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    ATTENTION: STEVE IS THE AUTHOR OF THIS POORLY WRITTEN, OUTDATED VERSION OF MODEL X

    02:31] Ashton: yeah it's steve
    [02:31] Ashton: it's stuff he wrote.
    [02:31] strrrng: yes
    [02:31] Ashton: Post and say it's him
    [02:31] Ashton: and that thats um
    [02:31] strrrng: i will
    [02:31] Ashton: horribly written and retarded lol
    [02:31] Ashton: and refers to outdated conceptss.

    Anyway, steve, you're a piece of shit, a rat, a pussy, and deserve the most brutal ass beating possible. All this shit you preach about loyalty and honesty, and look at this. Suck a dick, you coward.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    [02:34] dolphin: oh yeah
    [02:34] dolphin: thats the one
    [02:34] dolphin: i had
    [02:34] dolphin: steve sent me it
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    And the drama continues...

    Jason
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Have Expat cherrypick the info and comment in some derisive tone when Ashton isn't even here to defend himself?
    The thought of bothering to do that did not cross my mind for a second, since from what I've glimpsed of it, it's a purely self-contained description, that is to say, since it makes no reference to real people, real behaviors, even thoughts, etc, it's impossible to "cherrypick the 'info'" except as to its internal consistency, which I would see as a waste of time.

    As for Ashton not "being here to defend himself", as I said elsewhere, in this forum he has no rights of any kind. I know that probably has nothing to do with your criticism of niffweed, but I just thought I might mention it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    QUOTE (Steve;349532)
    Also, if you have a need to discuss that model, why don't you do it at socionix where he can discuss it too and not let it get misconstrued? What are your motives in discussing it here? Do you want people to rally around your dismissals of anything socionix and elicit validation for your write-offs? Or are you afraid that it has credence and you are afraid of people catching onto it, leaving you in the dust?
    Steve, if you want people to "catch onto it" and leave niffweed, myself, or whoever in the dust, you are quite welcome to post, and defend, any version of that model here, whenever you wish. In fact, you have done so; without any objection from anyone.

    And those who choose to prefer that model, or any other, are also welcome to it. I'm not sure why you think that everyone else has the same need for validation of their ideas as you have.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'm not sure why you think that everyone else has the same need for validation of their ideas as you have.
    roflmao


    ahahahahahahahahahahahaha


    fucking little cunt phobic 6, steve is.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  9. #9
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Why is it that the people I see on this forum who associate with Ashton have to use so much swearing and attacking in their posts?

  10. #10
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Because we are all mindless drones who obey warlord Ashton's every militant command? Because we need a channel for all this hate?
    I used to think you were quite a pleasant young woman. I've got to say i've been taken aback by the language that's been used, and you've used here. Maybe you're annoyed, but I can't help thinking that perhaps you speak to people like that IRL also, which somehow I find a little disturbing. Not that i'm your guide to good behaviour or anything! I just wonder if your parents know you speak like that.
    Last edited by Cyclops; 09-17-2008 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Why is it that the people I see on this forum who associate with Ashton have to use so much swearing and attacking in their posts?
    motherfuck, I'm gonna kill steve, damn I'm a gangsta, step to me nigga, you suckafuck fool. Beta revolution ftw nigga.

    Fuck.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    *sigh*
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Good that you found that quote; I had a dim memory of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Ashton has a fairly cutting, straight to the point no bullshit style about him which some people find hard to handle, however you really have to look past it and I don't think people should be insecure enough or feel threatened to have him around. It would at least be fair for him to be able to defend himself in threads talking about him. Many of the things he says are true, but some people are unwilling to accept harsh truths sometimes.
    @Steve:

    - do remember your own words, the next time you feel the need to complain about anyone dealing with you in a way you "find hard to handle" and you may be even "unwilling to accept harsh truths".
    - and, again, Ashton has no right to fairness here as long as I have anything to say about it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  14. #14
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    i thought everyone already knew about this idea
    INTp

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    i thought everyone already knew about this idea
    Xactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    *sigh*
    Yeah, no kidding.

    Also, fwiw, I thought the quoted original posts were at least interesting as a thought experiment. Didn't understand the street thing at all though.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    I don't think people knew all the details of it. Most just caught debris flying around at socionix or stickam.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    I've never understood blind following either.
    el oh el, indeed.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ENFj leadership style is a bit cultish as they tend to surround them with people who they guide to fulfill their plans.
    p00
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Steve didn't do this. Dolphin sent it to me. Strrrng and Dolphin, you both disgust me to a degree that I have no verbal expression for.

    Goodbye.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem
    Steve didn't do this. Dolphin sent it to me.
    This is absurd. Dolphin is friends with Ashton and uses his model. She would not reveal it. Additionally, when I told her what was going on, she was dumbfounded. Maybe that was because you sent it to niffweed? In that case, fuck you, I hope you die, cunt. Dolphin may have been stupid to show it to you (look no further than the fact that you probably wouldn't be able to understand it properly), but it is even more fucked up to send it to someone whom you know will publicize it. Ugh.

    Strrrng and Dolphin, you both disgust me to a degree that I have no verbal expression for.

    Goodbye.
    Does that mean you want my cock, too?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    I'll give Ashton the benefit of the doubt and same this isn't the complete model X, because if it is Ashton is really dumb.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    I'll give Ashton the benefit of the doubt and same this isn't the complete model X, because if it is Ashton is really dumb.
    If you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that in a pasted portion of an aim convo, Ashton says that not only is this Steve's poor, convoluted writing, but it is an outdated version of the model.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    If you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that in a pasted portion of an aim convo, Ashton says that not only is this Steve's poor, convoluted writing, but it is an outdated version of the model.
    Which is why I said I would give Ashton the benefit of the doubt.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrxtes
    Steve didn't do this. I sent niffweed the model.
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    I sent Jxrtes the model.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    1. Since cold fronts are dense and compact they are more rigid and so can travel much more quickly than warm fronts (this is because they are more centralized, ordered, and easier to manipulate as whole; when convection is more of an issue than conduction, which tends to be the case among air masses, each mass behaves like an independent substance, the two do not mix). When a cold front overtakes a warm front, it pushes beneath the warm air, forcing it into a higher altitude where pressure is lower and the ground is farther away, so that the relative humidity is increased and the air cools causing clouds and precipitation to form, which are usually detectable on Doppler radar. This is why front collisions are so easy to find, and why storms often occur at these locations.

    2. If the mode of a judging type with a perceiving subtype is a perceiving function, then why is it not considered a perceiving type? Identicals with opposite subtypes in this model only share unvalued functions. Ego block similarity is dependent on subtype rather than type, and the Superid is least similar for mirrors with the same subtype or identicals with different subtypes, but seems to become more similar the more two mirrors approach each other or diverge from each other in subtype, with constant displacement or same direction of spectral divergence reducing similarity. This seems to imply some type of polar, rotationally symmetric, and thus periodic function.
    Last edited by Nexus; 09-17-2008 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    Right, gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    I sent Jxrtes the model.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Steve didn't do this. I sent niffweed the model.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    b) it's an outdated (and shitty) model thanks to steve's additions
    c) steve wrote it up and is in cahoots with niffweed
    Uhhh --

    But what about


    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    The plot thickens.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    lol @ Expat getting all devious and shit.

    I think either dolphin sent it to Jem, and Jem sent it to niffweed, for whatever reason; or, Steve sent it to jrxtes, and jrxtes sent it to niffweed, for whatever reason.

    I don't particularly care about the details. In a way, I'm glad it got publicized - although it wasn't the most refined, accurate depiction. At least people can't bitch about being in the dark on it anymore.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    8th function: Immobilization – This is a function where the person becomes paralyzed, and doesn\'t know what to do - it basically just plain "immobilizes" them. It that is avoided at all costs and/or countered aggressively with the mode, depending on the subtype. Any type (subtype) with a perceiving function as an agenda will have a counterphobic reaction to their immobilization. Essentially, all P sub J-types (such as Ni ENTj) and all J sub P-types (such as Ti ENTp) will react counterphobically to their immobilization, and J sub J-types (such as Ti INTj) and P sub P-types (such as Ni INTp) will react phobically. With a phobic response, the person will hide from it and hope it goes away, whereas a with a counter-phobic response, the person will come out and directly attack it.
    Ah, so that's why nobody who follows that model wants to be a J-subtype. I have yet to see a true adherent of that model who has typed themselves as J-subtype.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Ah, so that's why nobody who follows that model wants to be a J-subtype. I have yet to see a true adherent of that model who has typed themselves as J-subtype.
    Steve did.

    And why would someone be against being a J-sub? What is so much worse about responding counter-phobically to one's polr (or better about responding phobically, for that matter)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Steve did.
    I stand corrected, but see below:

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And why would someone be against being a J-sub? What is so much worse about responding counter-phobically to one's polr (or better about responding phobically, for that matter)?
    Actually I read it too fast, but the idea is the same:

    Any type (subtype) with a perceiving function as an agenda will have a counterphobic reaction to their immobilization. Essentially, all P sub J-types (such as Ni ENTj) and all J sub P-types (such as Ti ENTp) will react counterphobically to their immobilization,
    Actually Steve's self-typing as Ti-ENTp confirms what I was thinking.

    I suggest that all the followers of this model will have typed themselves in a such a way as to say "I react counter-phobically to my PoLR", and I very much doubt that any one of the true adherents of it will have typed themselves as reacting phobically - and if anyone would suggest otherwise, they would go "no! No way I am PoLR-phobic!"

    Or do you have examples that disprove what I have suggested? I mean real self-typings by people who care.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    i don't care who sent it to who. i don't care about the information contained in it. i don't care if it's outdated.

    i just got it from someone (i don't know who it was, ftr) and posted it, and i really don't give a shit whether anyone else cares about its availability or not.

    my assumption is that the person who sent it to me did so because they knew that i'd post it without looking back or caring what happened to it. if that isn't the case, then whoever sent it to me was in serious error.

    i think this debate is largely laughable because people are bitching about divided loyalties and secrecy for a document that apparently nobody cares about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    i don't care who sent it to who. i don't care about the information contained in it. i don't care if it's outdated.

    i just got it from someone (i don't know who it was, ftr) and posted it, and i really don't give a shit whether anyone else cares about its availability or not.

    my assumption is that the person who sent it to me did so because they knew that i'd post it without looking back or caring what happened to it. if that isn't the case, then whoever sent it to me was in serious error.

    i think this debate is largely laughable because people are bitching about divided loyalties and secrecy for a document that apparently nobody cares about.
    Isn't anybody going to try to defend this model? It has creative merit but is ultimately more confusing than helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I suggest that all the followers of this model will have typed themselves in a such a way as to say "I react counter-phobically to my PoLR", and I very much doubt that any one of the true adherents of it will have typed themselves as reacting phobically - and if anyone would suggest otherwise, they would go "no! No way I am PoLR-phobic!"

    Or do you have examples that disprove what I have suggested? I mean real self-typings by people who care.
    Right, I forgot about the counter-phobic reaction that P-sub J's (ashton, fabio, etc) have towards their polr. I could see how this would seem favorable. But more so, I think being a P-sub was more appealing, as they were portrayed as more "raw and open," than their "refined" J-sub counterparts. That being said, I never had a problem with reacting "phobically" to my polr, nor did I have an especially strong bias towards P-subs (for a good time, at least).

    edit: redundant statement
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Right, I forgot about the counter-phobic reaction that P-sub J's (ashton, fabio, etc) have towards their polr. I could see how this would seem favorable. But more so, I think being a P-sub was more appealing, as they are defined as more "raw and open," as opposed to the more "refined" J-subs. That being said, I never had a problem with reacting "phobically" to my polr, nor did I have an especially strong bias towards P-subs (for a good time, at least).

    But, in retrospect, I could see how there was a subtle, overriding bias towards P-subs.
    The fact that Ashton thinks that an ENTj P subtype is more P than an INTp J subtype makes me laugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    The fact that Ashton thinks that an ENTj P subtype is more P than an INTp J subtype makes me laugh.
    He doesn't. He would probably only say that the P-subs of a given quadra had a more raw quality about them. It had nothing to do with spontaneity.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post

    Or do you have examples that disprove what I have suggested? I mean real self-typings by people who care.
    zeia, whoever he is, is typed under that model as INTp-Te. both jadae and ajax are ENFj-Fe.

    more debatable examples might include coolguy89, herzy, mercutio, baby, bulletsanddoves, dreamer, and scarlettlux.

    for all of these except scarlettlux, it is to me unclear as to how much these people know about ashton's model or care. for scarlettlux, even though she no longer (for the most part) seems to hold this viewpoint, she definitely considers herself INFp-Fe whenever she ends up being INFp.

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    The first part of this model (supposing what niffweed has listed is the true model, for simplicity) is exactly equivalent to the smilingeyes model of compatibility over the temperament ring, with a slightly different terminology. I told Ashie about this multiple times, but I don't think we finally reached an agreement on the matter.
    The second part I don't understand very well, but I disagree with the general idea - I think that for an ENTp-Ti Fe is obviously a more considered function rather than for an ENTp-Ne, which will prefer Si more. (and the same reasoning would be valid for all the similar types).
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