Thoughts on this post from another thread

[cracka]

I think Ritella kinda hit the nail on the head a bit in this post, as to what's been happening for some time on the forum now.

Fwiw, I think I may be retiring from my short lived posting history of verbal mish-mosh. I find this forum too oppressive. I don't like that I can't express certain aspects of myself or my personality because I know that someone will call me out on not being INFJ. For the record: Minde /= INFJ and "super nice, good-natured person" /= INFJ (i.e. Munenori who ended up being ISFP. Ha!). I'm too talented and have too much to offer the world than to limit myself to some idiots' preconceived stereotype of an INFJ or subscribe to some "INFJ ideal." Sadly, however, I do feel as though this forum and socionics is done a huge injustice because rather than pause to consider possible variations in a type or the affect of <gasp> personal individuality (yes, not everything can be explained to Socionics), you label the people from whom you would most benefit to learn, make them feel as if they are not being true to themselves (when in fact they are doing exactly that), and ultimately force them to leave. I understand that due to people's misconceptions of socionics, you do have to challenge self typings. But try to consider doing it in a manner that's more open and, perhaps, not immediately after only 2 comments have been made to cause "alarm" about the person's type. For all the well touted logical skills that NTs and Ts possess (another stereotype imo), a few on this forum consistently shun the evidence that they have a very limited range for each personality type and a rather bad interpretation of how the elements translate into real life. How many times has someone posted something in which everyone saw the same element/type/whatever and it turned out to be wrong?

I never have tried to figure out socionics, but I do have a grasp of how typing people can and should work. These days I even find myself getting rather irritated at how when a person says something that may not be the typical thing for that type to say, someone will hop up and declare that the person isn't that type at all, and here's the proof (insert random sentence here, many times totally out of context). FTR, I think there are a few people here who will say they have the best system of socionics and that anyone who disagrees with any part of it is totally wrong. It's actually rather sickening to see so often these days. I won't go saying I'm gonna leave this place, but it's very easy to see why others are doing it. This place is a pool of negativity and if you don't agree with the right person you are told you're ignorant or retarded. It's become a place where people are only open to discussion if you're on the same page, if not, you're not worth their time, so the insults start flying. Don't get me wrong though, I do think some people are waaaaaay off base and it is pretty easily noticed when this is the case, but for the most part, it's starting to become a place where no opinion matters about a person's type unless it's bought off by a certain few people. Even then, those people rarely even agree.

I know it's too much to ask for some people to just "chill out" and use a little consideration when interacting here, some people just don't have that built in... then there are the people who are assholes just because they are a certain type and they'll use that as an excuse to be that asshole any time they can. So, that's about all I have to say at this point, I'm sure some will argue with anything I may have written and it's really not something I'm gonna argue about due to the fact that it's my opinion, and unlike many others here, I'm not trying to push that onto anyone. Just pointing it out.

[cracka]

Also, as UDP pointed out in the other thread it's worth mentioning... that when she mentioned Minde in her post, she didn't intend to say that Minde is not INFJ, but more the fact that Minde is not all that is INFJ, just like Christy B. or Ritella herself are all totally different, even though they are the same type.

[UDP]

Another voiced opinion. I wonder where this will go.

Thank you for your comments, perhaps people will start talking more directly about it.

I would suggest that the people who care actually make an analysis of what is actually going on in the forum, and just have open contributions to what is happening, so people can understand or voice their opinions. This may be already going on, but I don't know. There seems to be an increase in the number of complaints I hear about the forum, so perhaps people are ready to get more vocal about what they see as "bad socionics practice", and so on. Or even, good socionics practice. It might be helpful to try to create some active, upfront discussion about it, rather than little comments here and there (again, this may already be happening - I don't know enough about what's going on to say). If it is happening, or people are finding other means or avenues to talk about socionics, that's great.

*pokes ____ in the side*

I'll put more into this thread over time. It is time for me to sleep.

[JuJu]

I hope everyone reads what you wrote.... Thank you.

In PMs, several told me that they left this forum b/c each time they'd come, they'd get blown a bunch of crap from someone who is bitter and bored ... Generally, ppl get enough crap at work or school. They don't want it in their leisure activity.

Maybe it goes without saying: the ppl here are what make this forum interesting... A lot of ppl have ideas to contribute... If they're allowed to contribute them in an environment where they feel comfortable, they will stay. This will lead to more and more (interesting) ideas--and more and more ppl coming(back.)

This place will become more fun if a few ppl start picking their battles instead of battling (posturing) non-stop.

[tcaudilllg]

Another voiced opinion. I wonder where this will go.

Thank you for your comments, perhaps people will start talking more directly about it.


*pokes ____ in the side*

I'll put more into this thread over time. It is time for me to sleep.

As you and I both know only too well, "effective" socionics practice shifts by the day. We went from knowing next to nothing about Socionics to polarity with the East's own knowledge, perhaps in some way surpassing it.... But of course that's just talking about people who accept mine, labcoat's, and other's experimental observations and bother to confirm them. (like yourself) The conservative wing of the forum is the part of it that performs the stereotyping... although several conservative leaders on this forum are quite knowledgable. Those that aren't won't be shifting their viewpoints unless something strange and unprecedented happens, something that affirms for them the rightness of our standpoint and the incompleteness of theirs.

Perhaps what I'm saying is, until one of us gets recognized with a standing ovation by the Socionics Institute in Kiev, our opinion probably won't amount to a hill of beans from the perspective of say, Rick or Joy. (the consensus leaders on the Right). But once they do come around, I think everyone else will too.

That affirms it: we need more ISTJs around here! More S, less filling.

[xyz]

I've already said this. It will promptly be ignored. Try raising a controversial topic, type, or just say "all muslims must die" over and over while randomly inserting your point, that might generate some actual discussion.

Or it could always devolve into monkeys flinging poo, as it usually does. Either way, this forum is neither informative, nor discussion worthy, nor even a good muse anymore.

[cracka]

I've already said this. It will promptly be ignored.

True, and most likely by the people who really should read it and actually think about it a bit...
Oh well, I just like hopping up on a soapbox every once in a while, and just wanted to point out the fact that I thought Ritella's post was well written in regards to this topic.

[JuJu]

I've already said this. It will promptly be ignored. Try raising a controversial topic, type, or just say "all muslims must die" over and over while randomly inserting your point, that might generate some actual discussion.

Or it could always devolve into monkeys flinging poo, as it usually does. Either way, this forum is neither informative, nor discussion worthy, nor even a good muse anymore.

What's good is you're still here. It would really suck if you left.

I notice you post less and less... I mean, I understand why... I'm just hoping you--and a bunch of other cool ppl--don't leave.

[aestrivex]

I think Ritella kinda hit the nail on the head a bit in this post, as to what's been happening for some time on the forum now.





I never have tried to figure out socionics, but I do have a grasp of how typing people can and should work. These days I even find myself getting rather irritated at how when a person says something that may not be the typical thing for that type to say, someone will hop up and declare that the person isn't that type at all, and here's the proof (insert random sentence here, many times totally out of context). FTR, I think there are a few people here who will say they have the best system of socionics and that anyone who disagrees with any part of it is totally wrong. It's actually rather sickening to see so often these days. I won't go saying I'm gonna leave this place, but it's very easy to see why others are doing it. This place is a pool of negativity and if you don't agree with the right person you are told you're ignorant or retarded. It's become a place where people are only open to discussion if you're on the same page, if not, you're not worth their time, so the insults start flying. Don't get me wrong though, I do think some people are waaaaaay off base and it is pretty easily noticed when this is the case, but for the most part, it's starting to become a place where no opinion matters about a person's type unless it's bought off by a certain few people. Even then, those people rarely even agree.

I know it's too much to ask for some people to just "chill out" and use a little consideration when interacting here, some people just don't have that built in... then there are the people who are assholes just because they are a certain type and they'll use that as an excuse to be that asshole any time they can. So, that's about all I have to say at this point, I'm sure some will argue with anything I may have written and it's really not something I'm gonna argue about due to the fact that it's my opinion, and unlike many others here, I'm not trying to push that onto anyone. Just pointing it out.

i respect this, basically. you certainly are not contributing to this state of affairs, but most of the people that end up complaining about this tendency are doing precisely that. the primary basis of the argumentation is that the sheer amount of dissent right now is rather colossal. from a perspective of "socionics ideology," if such a thing exists, people like juju, consentingadult, and others that bitch and assign blame about how extensive this problem is are equally culpable for the resulting flame wars as people like strrrng/allie/dolphin or myself.


the only real solution that you have is to recluse yourself from the discussions. this is what i have mostly been attempting to do lately, rather than deal with people who i don't have the slightest chance in hell of communicating with, which from my perspective is the most exasperating component of the present state of affairs.

[cracka]

the only real solution that you have is to recluse yourself from the discussions. this is what i have mostly been attempting to do lately, rather than deal with people who i don't have the slightest chance in hell of communicating with, which from my perspective is the most exasperating component of the present state of affairs.

At some point, this may be the best thing to do. There are times where people just really need to know how blatantly wrong they are about something, but there are other times when a person needs to respect someone's own line of thinking and opinions, even if skewed from what they may believe. Sometimes it's best to think "ugh, that's stupid" and not reply (just let it go), especially if it's something minuscule in the grand scheme of things.

The problem I've been seeing from people here lately, is that they will argue a point, just to argue with a post that a certain person made in a thread. Even if it's something they are not 100% sure they are correct on themselves. The person may think they know a bit about something, but they'll be positive they know more than someone else, and then just attack the person because they think they are totally wrong about something. Even if the case arises that the person who joined the discussion to attack someone may not really know shit about that topic at all.
This causes negativity in all types of discussions, even the ones that are not so socionically related.

[snegledmaca]

I think Ritella kinda hit the nail on the head a bit in this post, as to what's been happening for some time on the forum now.

I on other hand think her post is a tribute to projection. A person, rittela in this case, has limited understanding of socionics and projects their own inadequacies as general practice. I have seen this done many times on this forum by people who perceive questioning their type as some sort of personal attack. I also think it's a very fine example of a straw man argument. Rittela did not address a single point brought up to her, she attempted to dismiss it on the grounds that some people are sloppy in typing others and tried to shift the discussion to that.

This place is a pool of negativity and if you don't agree with the right person you are told you're ignorant or retarded. It's become a place where people are only open to discussion if you're on the same page, if not, you're not worth their time, so the insults start flying. Don't get me wrong though, I do think some people are waaaaaay off base and it is pretty easily noticed when this is the case, but for the most part, it's starting to become a place where no opinion matters about a person's type unless it's bought off by a certain few people.

What makes you say that? How? Why would my opinion not matter because somebody doesn't approve of it?

[Mariano Rajoy]

I love socionics <3

And Cracker needs to be a mod, so he can mod out the assholes.

[strrrng]

others that bitch and assign blame about how extensive this problem is are equally culpable for the resulting flame wars as people like strrrng/allie/dolphin or myself.

flame wars lol

[cracka]

What makes you say that? How? Why would my opinion not matter because somebody doesn't approve of it?

I voiced my opinion on what I see myself. If you don't feel this is the case, that's ok too. I'm not gonna argue that point with you.

[munenori2]

I think ritella and cracka have brought up some really good points. That isn't precisely the reason that I've been trying to minimize my time here lately, but it figures into the calculus. I actually enjoy the debate that goes on here (the good ones), but most of the time it seems to devolve into inconsolability and personal attacks when I think people should be able to simply take a step back and chill out. Oh well.

[FDG]

Some people have said that they actually enjoy that atmosphere (discojoe comes to mind). It's going to be hard to change anything as long as these types of actions are done out of personal enjoyment and not simply due to conflicting visions.

[strrrng]

I enjoy the atmosphere lol.

[xyz]

What's good is you're still here. It would really suck if you left.

I notice you post less and less... I mean, I understand why... I'm just hoping you--and a bunch of other cool ppl--don't leave.

thanks, I probably won't really leave or anything... I'll just have to use that filter I use in the real world to filter atmospheres/people I don't like.

[Slacker]

There are two problems here:

1. People get so stuck on thinking someone is some particular type that they get into arguments, and at some point winning the argument becomes more important than the type.

2. People come here not knowing much if anything about Socionics, but sure they know everything, and sure they know their own type even if they might be wrong, and take offense to every suggestion that they learn more and that if they learned more they might see they've mistyped themselves.

You are complaining about one of the problems but it sounds like you might be contributing to the other. I have no idea what type you are but really if you're new you should keep you mind open and just be here for a while before assuming you absolutely know your type.

[aestrivex]

You are complaining about one of the problems but it sounds like you might be contributing to the other. I have no idea what type you are but really if you're new you should keep you mind open and just be here for a while before assuming you absolutely know your type.

are you suggesting cracka is doing this?

[marooned]

The problem I've been seeing from people here lately, is that they will argue a point, just to argue with a post that a certain person made in a thread. Even if it's something they are not 100% sure they are correct on themselves. The person may think they know a bit about something, but they'll be positive they know more than someone else, and then just attack the person because they think they are totally wrong about something. Even if the case arises that the person who joined the discussion to attack someone may not really know shit about that topic at all.

I think that part of it is that there is a sort of "need" or strong pull to do this. Wanting to unsettle things. Anyway I seem to feel rather apathetic about the "atmosphere," except it is better than everyone being fluffy and nice all the time and not saying things they really think or feel. I suppose it is "negative" but I haven't been following a lot of it lately. I guess it has been drifting more away from productive discussion about the theory, but it would have to come back. If you pull metal flakes away from a powerful magnet, as soon as you let go they go flying back.

[Slacker]

are you suggesting cracka is doing this?

No, but maybe Ritella is. How long has she been here? How can she be POSITIVE of her type? She might very well be INFj, but really I think people should keep their eyes open and not feel so committed so early to what type they think they are.

[unefille]

No, but maybe Ritella is. How long has she been here? How can she be POSITIVE of her type? She might very well be INFj, but really I think people should keep their eyes open and not feel so committed so early to what type they think they are.

I think that's very good advice (I certainly heed it!) but I think it's generally easier for an Ne-base type to keep their minds open about their type, particularly when also devaluing Ti, lol.

[JuJu]

rather than deal with people who i don't have the slightest chance in hell of communicating with, which from my perspective is the most exasperating component of the present state of affairs.

The thing is, you have a chance of communicating with everyone here... No one's asking you to censor your ideas and be...

fluffy and nice all the time and not saying things they really think or feel.

...just remember that communication obstacles here are opportunities to help ppl learn Socionics... Instead of tearing ppl down, it benefits everyone if you help them build knowledge.

[FDG]

I think that part of it is that there is a sort of "need" or strong pull to do this. Wanting to unsettle things. Anyway I seem to feel rather apathetic about the "atmosphere," except it is better than everyone being fluffy and nice all the time and not saying things they really think or feel.

You know, sometimes people do think nice and fluffy things.

[aestrivex]

The thing is, you have a chance of communicating with everyone here... No one's asking you to censor your ideas and be...

you are misinterpreting my point. for example, i don't have a chance in hell of communicating effectively with someone like phaedrus (or you, for that matter), which is definitely not because i intentionally censor myself.

[aestrivex]

No, but maybe Ritella is. How long has she been here? How can she be POSITIVE of her type? She might very well be INFj, but really I think people should keep their eyes open and not feel so committed so early to what type they think they are.

definitely, i think she's under the influence of some amount of misinterpretation, although ritella was part of boston and talked with people IRL, unbeknownst to what her forum history might seem to indicate.

it was confusing at any rate because ritella had nothing to do with this thread directly and has not posted here.

[UDP]

As you and I both know only too well, "effective" socionics practice shifts by the day. We went from knowing next to nothing about Socionics to polarity with the East's own knowledge, perhaps in some way surpassing it.... But of course that's just talking about people who accept mine, labcoat's, and other's experimental observations and bother to confirm them. (like yourself)

There was never a statement issued by myself to you
which stated that I accept or confirm your observations, experimental or otherwise.

I'm not sure why you said "like yourself". I don't particularly know anything about your experimental observations, as I've have not looked into them much. So for you to say that I "bother to confirm" them is misappropriation.

Again, this is not a personal attack or disagreement with you... it is just another reaction to someone saying "they know me" or "I know you and agree with you", when, in fact, such is not the case.

[JuJu]

you are misinterpreting my point. for example, i don't have a chance in hell of communicating effectively with someone like phaedrus (or you, for that matter), which is definitely not because i intentionally censor myself.

You do have a chance to communicate effectively though--with me, anyway... I'm open to your ideas.

[Slacker]

definitely, i think she's under the influence of some amount of misinterpretation, although ritella was part of boston and talked with people IRL, unbeknownst to what her forum history might seem to indicate.

it was confusing at any rate because ritella had nothing to do with this thread directly and has not posted here.

Yeah I read her post and responded to it, but I'd forgotten that her post was just quoted and that she hadn't personally written that here. Sorry for the miscommunication.

[cracka]

Yeah I read her post and responded to it, but I'd forgotten that her post was just quoted and that she hadn't personally written that here. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Her post was something I felt like building on when I read it in the other thread. I didn't think a lot of people would go that deep into a 10+ page thread so i felt the need to quote it here. Like Niff. said though, she's been around it a fair enough amount at this point and even at the Boston meet some time ago... so that should be good for something, I'd hope.