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    Default confused encounterings of the functions.

    Haris has a problem. It can either be intuition. Or plain suspicion, combined with lack of knowledge. Or both perhaps. He has difficulty with handling that he knows what someone is upto - especially if they are manipulative. I would like to see if you can relate this to specific functions in terms of how he perceives things. You know, ni, ne fe, fi and so on.

    Of course, im keeping in mind that while socionics will not help define WHY he does, or his inner motivation psychology, it will show what information he is valuing in so he is motivated to act this way Let's begin.

    A little background. Haris is an introverted NF. Thus he could either be an INFP or an INFJ. I think.

    When haris was in his late teens, he was in close contact with people who were..a little different? (im not sure how they should be categorized). These were other teenagers of his age. One was diagnosed with a borderline personality disorder. She was manipulative and would lie and consistently create emotionally charged Fake life experiences that she was 'suffering' from. These ranged from just being depressed to bizarre ones such as seeing a ghost who was ordering her to do things. There were other things which came along with the bpd, but which are irrelevant to the discussion here. Essentially, at times haris would get the feeling that she was lying BUT because here was this emotionally troubled person who needed emotional respite, he would overlook this and chose to Believe her version of it. It was much later that he found out that it truly was a whole lot of bull. Haris always feels responsible for the emotional state of others that he considers himself close to.

    The second person was an extremely unhealthy person. He was someone who would consistently lie about very many things. From what work he did, to whom he met, the people he knew, conversations he had, from a myrad of little everyday things, to things like how was terribly sick, how he suffered from life threating or psychiatric diseased. So much so that he sort of became notorious for this. This had of taken its time to build and during that so did haris' reading of the person. Now haris would very clearly see he was lying. This got to the point, that he could tell which sentences of the person was a lie, and which were not. Haris had a very good reading of this person. However, haris would FORCE himself not to consider this. This part is a little difficult to describe now, as i get it. Let's keep aside the motivations for this. However this resulted in difficulties. For example, then he would consider two seperate realities in his head. One where he was considering the lies ..this was forced to remain in the background..yet it was still there, like a hovering alternative. The other of course, was the one which was the truthful one, by accepting the 'literal truths' of the friend. So it was like having two simultaneous possiblilities of the same reality in his head at the same time. Like creating a simultaneous web of what was possibly happening. This was not to say that he wasn't sure when his friend was lying - he always was.

    As such haris had also a couple of other close relationships which were strongly..manipulative/deceitful in their intent. These effected him quite strongly.

    Haris is now in his early 20's. He has a bit of a problem now. He has an intuitive understanding of when someone is not being literally truthful. This comes from different things. Sometimes it is the tone of the voice, or the way someone twitches their face, sometimes it is emotional content, sometimes it is just the way people have reacted in patterns of behavior. Often the first three seem to trigger the last . Or sometimes it is simply unconcious, an inner knowing, that this is not the literal truth, even if it has not manifested in the past with that person before, or even with any other person(s) in the same manner.

    The problem is just the fact that someone is not being literally truthful is tormenting to haris. This is for all levels of 'lying'. For example, tact requires often that a person put things which are not meant to be understood literally. Sometimes someone puts to haris things very subtly or tactfully - much to haris' advantage or benefit. And yet, this triggers a reaction in haris as to a lie is present, and WHY someone would do it. What then happens is, haris can see an infinite number of possibilities of WHAT that meant. It is to him like creating a web simultaneously moving to and fro from any direction to another, all which seem just as likely, as to why they would do it. The issue is exaggerated out of proportion as to what is meant, and what is expected of haris, and consequently there appears a suspicion and grudge as to what will happen next. Haris chooses to act on the literal truth, to see what is really happening, but at the same tries carries the SUSPICION and GRUDGE until the situation finally clears to him, as to the intent of the lie. Was it just tact, or was it manipulation as applied to him. Sometimes it is serious manipulation , other times it is harmless. But it takes a while for haris to get it out of his system - amd restore a good mood and an even frame of mind..even if he has been apologised and made-up to. As such sometimes even flirtation causes him to go bonkers. To other people, often the same situations would have been so simple to understand as to what meaning was being hinted at.

    This is not to say that this always happens. Just with people he considers as important or idealizes. With others, while having a slight tendency to..appear gullible, infact he is anything as such. Often he Knows the sudden hidden motivations and meanings of people behind interactions and immediately sees that X is going to lead from this situation in the future and manages to avoid it - the means he uses are different but the outcome is the same, to not get "caught" in the situation. Sometimes he even feels that the other people might not have been so consciously aware of their own motivations in such a long-term-future possibility of short term events.


    The question im really trying to ask is - how much of what haris uses has to do with his processing information in terms of ne, ni, fe, and fi, as I seem to have described it. I have tried to use non-socionics descriptions..some things might not even be connected to socionics. Knowing however, what others have to say on this in terms of socionics would greatly reduce some of the confusions I'm having about socionics, especially since yesterday i have gone through a lot of threads involving these and am now left a little befuddle-d. it would be appreciated

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    *confused encounterings of the .. information elements? :$ oops.

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    You know what I'm thinking: Haris has a personality disposition toward authenticity, which draws decietful persons to him. His alter ego is probably very deceitful, perhaps for strategic purposes. (he'd make a damn good spy).

    As the IM bit, he's picking it up with FeNi. I suspect the "truth radar" bit comes into play with the passage of Fe directly to Te: one implies the other automatically.

    I don't worry myself whether or not people are telling the truth; I read bullshit right off the bat and send a counter-signal that says "yeah... riiiiiiiiiiight."

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    You know what I'm thinking: Haris has a personality disposition toward authenticity, which draws decietful persons to him. His alter ego is probably very deceitful, perhaps for strategic purposes. (he'd make a damn good spy).
    lol..like that character dicaprio played in the departed, it reminds me of. Having two selves at the same time..a damn good spy. Interesting insight, yes perhaps that might be true.

    As the IM bit, he's picking it up with FeNi. I suspect the "truth radar" bit comes into play with the passage of Fe directly to Te: one implies the other automatically.
    Can you expand on this a bit? This is exactly the confusion I've been coming up against. I think haris is NiFe ego ( I could expand on it if required) ..but in my understanding of NiFe, it doesn't quite seem to line up with it(nothing to say that I have a particularly good understanding yet). That is why I figured maybe it could be NeFi (ergo He might not value it or use it much naturally but has been 'forced' to and is good at it) Can you try to show how it is FeNi-or rather what FeNi is and then link it up to his example? I'm asking for this, because I don't seem to understand that so well when I try to apply the theory to real life examples to make sense of it. Could this be NiFe too, or can a NeFi induvidual also manage to learn how to 'use' FeNi ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali
    Haris has a problem. It can either be intuition. Or plain suspicion, combined with lack of knowledge. Or both perhaps. He has difficulty with handling that he knows what someone is up to - especially if they are manipulative. I would like to see if you can relate this to specific functions in terms of how he perceives things. You know, ni, ne fe, fi and so on.

    Of course, im keeping in mind that while socionics will not help define WHY he does, or his inner motivation psychology, it will show what information he is valuing in so he is motivated to act this way Let's begin.

    A little background. Haris is an introverted NF. Thus he could either be an INFP or an INFJ. I think.
    I identify with this general background information (I am INFp). While I think both INFj and INFp are adept at recognizing motivations, INFps probably do it more actively. And the 4's - which is about every INFp - also have a tendency to read into others' motivations and not want to believe the truth, in pursuit of their idealizing; but I'll get to that.

    When haris was in his late teens, he was in close contact with people who were..a little different? (im not sure how they should be categorized). These were other teenagers of his age. One was diagnosed with a borderline personality disorder. She was manipulative and would lie and consistently create emotionally charged Fake life experiences that she was 'suffering' from. These ranged from just being depressed to bizarre ones such as seeing a ghost who was ordering her to do things. There were other things which came along with the bpd, but which are irrelevant to the discussion here. Essentially, at times haris would get the feeling that she was lying BUT because here was this emotionally troubled person who needed emotional respite, he would overlook this and chose to Believe her version of it. It was much later that he found out that it truly was a whole lot of bull. Haris always feels responsible for the emotional state of others that he considers himself close to.
    Wow. How strongly I understand this can not even be expressed in words (and won't be, for my emotional sake). But yes, this sounds possibly like an INFp 4 who wants to help others (and be helped -- inverse relationship) and sort of allies his or herself with certain people to reflect his or her inner suffering, experience various perceptions, generally understand the person, etc. Also, seeing the inherent motivations quickly is something I would expect, and ignoring them for the sake of hope/ideals/whatever is something I would also expect. The 4 tends to reside in their ideals - both of themselves and others - and believe me, speaking from experience, this can have very negative effects.

    The second person was an extremely unhealthy person. He was someone who would consistently lie about very many things. From what work he did, to whom he met, the people he knew, conversations he had, from a myrad of little everyday things, to things like how was terribly sick, how he suffered from life threating or psychiatric diseased. So much so that he sort of became notorious for this. This had of taken its time to build and during that so did haris' reading of the person. Now haris would very clearly see he was lying. This got to the point, that he could tell which sentences of the person was a lie, and which were not. Haris had a very good reading of this person. However, haris would FORCE himself not to consider this. This part is a little difficult to describe now, as i get it. Let's keep aside the motivations for this. However this resulted in difficulties. For example, then he would consider two seperate realities in his head. One where he was considering the lies ..this was forced to remain in the background..yet it was still there, like a hovering alternative. The other of course, was the one which was the truthful one, by accepting the 'literal truths' of the friend. So it was like having two simultaneous possiblilities of the same reality in his head at the same time. Like creating a simultaneous web of what was possibly happening. This was not to say that he wasn't sure when his friend was lying - he always was.
    I relate to this profoundly. If you see my more recent blog entries, it reflects this attitude. Having an attachment to something and also considering the non-existance of that thing - especially to a 4 - is incredibly destructive. Not only do ideals pervade one's sense of self regularly, but if you become attached to something - whether a negative or positive influence - and develop ideals of THAT thing, yet know it is in some way tainted, you start going crazy - literally. It is a test of your psychic stability to be put in such a situation, and I commend him for enduring.

    As such haris had also a couple of other close relationships which were strongly..manipulative/deceitful in their intent. These effected him quite strongly.
    I'm beginning to agree with tcaud - that people like him and I unwittingly get pulled into self-destructive relationships and situations. Maybe it's an inherent feeling of defectiveness that needs to be externalized; maybe it's the naivety of our idealistic nature that cause us to be attracted to things which we believe we can save, or that in some mirror way can save us. Who knows. But there is a definite pattern here, and I wouldn't be surprised if your friend is an INFp 4.

    Haris is now in his early 20's. He has a bit of a problem now. He has an intuitive understanding of when someone is not being literally truthful. This comes from different things. Sometimes it is the tone of the voice, or the way someone twitches their face, sometimes it is emotional content, sometimes it is just the way people have reacted in patterns of behavior. Often the first three seem to trigger the last . Or sometimes it is simply unconcious, an inner knowing, that this is not the literal truth, even if it has not manifested in the past with that person before, or even with any other person(s) in the same manner.
    I'm not surprised.

    The problem is just the fact that someone is not being literally truthful is tormenting to haris. This is for all levels of 'lying'. For example, tact requires often that a person put things which are not meant to be understood literally. Sometimes someone puts to haris things very subtly or tactfully - much to haris' advantage or benefit. And yet, this triggers a reaction in haris as to a lie is present, and WHY someone would do it. What then happens is, haris can see an infinite number of possibilities of WHAT that meant. It is to him like creating a web simultaneously moving to and fro from any direction to another, all which seem just as likely, as to why they would do it. The issue is exaggerated out of proportion as to what is meant, and what is expected of haris, and consequently there appears a suspicion and grudge as to what will happen next. Haris chooses to act on the literal truth, to see what is really happening, but at the same tries carries the SUSPICION and GRUDGE until the situation finally clears to him, as to the intent of the lie. Was it just tact, or was it manipulation as applied to him. Sometimes it is serious manipulation , other times it is harmless. But it takes a while for haris to get it out of his system - amd restore a good mood and an even frame of mind..even if he has been apologised and made-up to. As such sometimes even flirtation causes him to go bonkers. To other people, often the same situations would have been so simple to understand as to what meaning was being hinted at.
    Based on this paragraph, I would lean towards NiFe ego functions.

    This is not to say that this always happens. Just with people he considers as important or idealizes. With others, while having a slight tendency to..appear gullible, infact he is anything as such. Often he Knows the sudden hidden motivations and meanings of people behind interactions and immediately sees that X is going to lead from this situation in the future and manages to avoid it - the means he uses are different but the outcome is the same, to not get "caught" in the situation. Sometimes he even feels that the other people might not have been so consciously aware of their own motivations in such a long-term-future possibility of short term events.
    This makes perfect sense, and lends credence to the INFp 4 typing, imo.

    The question im really trying to ask is - how much of what haris uses has to do with his processing information in terms of ne, ni, fe, and fi, as I seem to have described it. I have tried to use non-socionics descriptions..some things might not even be connected to socionics. Knowing however, what others have to say on this in terms of socionics would greatly reduce some of the confusions I'm having about socionics, especially since yesterday i have gone through a lot of threads involving these and am now left a little befuddle-d. it would be appreciated
    I think it's clear those are his four strong functions, and my typing of him is INFp 4.
    Last edited by strrrng; 09-15-2008 at 03:24 PM. Reason: grammar, quoting
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    Thank you so much strrrng. You seem to have resonated strongly with that description and your opinions have helped quite a bit - I will probably now be able to figure out and resolve the functions for myself.

    ps. What is the link to your blog ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali
    Thank you so much strrrng. You seem to have resonated strongly with that description and your opinions have helped quite a bit - I will probably now be able to figure out and resolve the functions for myself.
    Good, I'm glad.

    ps. What is the link to your blog ?
    I don't have a blog, but you can friend me on stickam. My screen name there is strrrng.
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    If you see my more recent blog entries
    that had me confused..

    shall look up stickam sometime then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali
    that had me confused..

    shall look up stickam sometime then
    See the thread "Nick's type blog" in what's my type.
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