Ethics in ENTp

[consentingadult]

I think this is not just ILE, it's Apha in general (Betas too but in a different way). My SEI gf argues in the same fashion. Imo, it's Fe based, it's about taking care of each other emotionally, as opposed to Gammas, who take care of each other economically. Betas are dependent on others for both emotional and economic support.

In the case of ILEs, there might be some sense of fear of abandonment involved, although not of pathological proportions. Would that make sense in your husbands case?

[Blaze]

I think this is not just ILE, it's Apha in general (Betas too but in a different way). My SEI gf argues in the same fashion. Imo, it's Fe based, it's about taking care of each other emotionally, as opposed to Gammas, who take care of each other economically. Betas are dependent on others for both emotional and economic support.

In the case of ILEs, there might be some sense of fear of abandonment involved, although not of pathological proportions. Would that make sense in your husbands case?

i never thought about it this way but i think you are totally on to something. i really don't need a sugardaddy or someone to take care of me financially, but i'm quite dependent on emotional support.

[consentingadult]

i never thought about it this way but i think you are totally on to something. i really don't need a sugardaddy or someone to take care of me financially, but i'm quite dependent on emotional support.

Could you give examples of how you see it working in your life?

[Blaze]

Could you give examples of how you see it working in your life?

yes....i'm in a relationship right now with an IEI and i don't worry so much about him financially taking care of me, since i'm setting things up so i can take care of myself. i really don't want to have to worry about "getting a guy who can take care of me." like, my delta parents think this is really important and i don't give a rat's ass about it. i feel like i have more latitude and freedom in who i choose to be with when i can just look at the person for who they are not so much for whether they can financially take care of me. nor do i much want to financially take care of him either, more like i'd like to support his efforts on behalf of himself. but i totally need and want emotional support. and he gives this to me....and it's amazing how much better i function with him than with my ex, who is SLE.

dunno...what you said just really resonated with me. money's like a given. i can get it pretty easily and i'm kinda like a thoroughbred racehorse. you take care of me emotionally, and rub my feet, and i'm off to win the race. make sense?

[consentingadult]

dunno...what you said just really resonated with me. money's like a given. i can get it pretty easily and i'm kinda like a thoroughbred racehorse. you take care of me emotionally, and rub my feet, and i'm off to win the race. make sense?

Yes, it does. Lets take a look at situations where you are feeling stress and in need of support. What do you feel at such moments, and what is it specifically you want from your partner?

Does the following ring a bell with you: early this year I had to collect paperwork for legal purposes, and as usual was procrastinating on it, until there was no more time left and I simply had to do it, but the anxiety made me freeze to the ground. I asked my gf for a hug, cried, let go of the anxiety, got relaxed, sat down and finished the work in three hours. I didn't need her practical help, at that moment I just needed a shoulder to cry on. She helped me to face my fears. (before people start thinking I'm ILE, please note that it was I who asked for support, not my gf offering me support unsolicited )

[Blaze]

Yes, it does. Lets take a look at situations where you are feeling stress and in need of support. What do you feel at such moments, and what is it specifically you want from your partner?

well let's take right now for instance. i've just started a new job and it's stressful because the people are unknowns and the procedures are unknown. i don't worry about the procedures...just ask and then follow. the people part gets me a little more worried. there were a lot of people hired at once and there's a lot of political type jockeying going on right now as the newly hired try to define their positions, roles, and try to become agents of influence. without my going into it too much there's things about it that make for a lot of ethical complication for me due to who i am and where i come from. so i stress out about how to best position myself in this environment. and also about whether i've stepped on people's toes or offended anybody.

what helps me? talking to somebody who won't judge my anxiety ridden struggles with this and who can offer useful suggestions on what to do today about things. somebody who will maintain an even emotional atmosphere in the home (since i can't do that) and try to get me to laugh. somebody who will cook tonight since i don't fucking feel like it.

by way of contrast, my SLE ex used to give me Se type of advice. this worked fine for him but i didn't benefit all that much. i mean, i can BE organized, diligent, strategic, forceful and goal oriented, but i can't PERCEIVE people's wants, needs, power, and will very well. so any type of Se-related advice unfortunately doesn't do dick to help me out. plus he used to mix in with it his own Fi polr type stuff: "they're all just a buncha assholes anyway, who cares?" "she's weak, don't worry about her."

but anyway i found the fact that he could do things the way he did and be effective quite admirable, but inherent in his advice towards me was a judgement against my Ne way of looking at things. so, part of what made the advice not useful was his lack of acceptance of who i am and the best way for me to do things. and that's just SLE, really. they think they are the best and everybody else is an idiot. so no point in personalizing it or anything, as i've learned.

Does the following ring a bell with you: early this year I had to collect paperwork for legal purposes, and as usual was procrastinating on it, until there was no more time left and I simply had to do it, but the anxiety made me freeze to the ground. I asked my gf for a hug, cried, let go of the anxiety, got relaxed, sat down and finished the work in three hours. I didn't need her practical help, at that moment I just needed a shoulder to cry on. She helped me to face my fears. (before people start thinking I'm ILE, please note that it was I who asked for support, not my gf offering me support unsolicited )

i do understand and totally relate to your process here. i've had the experience of being overwhelmed and feeling inadequate (like in people/political situations) and just breaking down. you said a couple of pages ago that only SEI can help ILE, but i'd have to say that at my age, i've gotten some very useful help from infpman.

i'm not sure of your type but what you said up there sounds kinda more like weak Se or Ti than weak Fi. i would not stress out about something like that (not that i don't understand why you would!! ). this type of thing would energize me. i would dig in and figure out how to win. look for a lot of information, get data data data, and figure out a spin. it would almost be fun.

dunno....am i still making any sense?

[consentingadult]

That makes some sense, yes.

My ESE mother talks about "doing your duty" of "taking care" of husband and kids. (I don't like thinking of any "duty" being involved, as it seems very cold. However she seems really angry with me when I tell her I don't find it my "duty" ...)


Maybe. And that might be the "base" for his "rules"? But how do the rules work? I can't "see" them? My rules are about relations and involve pros/cons. His rules are so different! I still don't "feel" them.

Have you, as an adult, ever felt so alone and deserted, that you felt like a little girl crying with snot coming out of her nose, that you wished your mom was there to hold you, to make you feel safe and protected, to comfort and console you, to have her say "It's all right sweetie, I'm with you now"? If so, then for you such moments are more likely incidental, but to many SLEs and ILEs such a need exists on an existential level, i.e. in the background, the feeling is always there.

Do you feel it now?

[consentingadult]

I don't think I've ever felt like that except once when I was a teenager. Do SLEs and ILEs feel like that frequently???!!!!

And yes, I feel the fear.
Do you say fear is the base of all/most ENTp ethical rules, or just the one about "family"? If fear is the base of all the ethical system of an ENTp, it's incredibly sad... What happens if you take away the fear?

They typically hide it behind a lot of bravado, SLEs behind a though bravado, ILEs behind an intellectual bravado. ILEs are (depending on their level of psychological health) afraid that at some stage there will not be anyone around to take care of hem emotionally. "Family" is the first port of call, but some people (whatever their type) have lost faith in "family" and thus fill that gap with other types of groups.

The only way to take away the fear from an ILE, is to fully accept him and provide ample opportunities for him to be himself in his interaction with you. Now it is not my intention to discourage you, but there is only one type who can do that naturally: SEIs. This is not just my theoretical understanding, I've seen it in reality. Socionics is a beautiful 'science'.

If the fear is taken away, they become relaxed into their bodies (Si), less intellectual, their Ne takes more realistic proportions and their creativity becomes more useful. The learn to live more in the moment and less distrusting of people in general (although this distrust typically is masked with an air of self-confidence), less people pleasing, and their need for acting like clowns diminishes as well.

[Lotus]

If fear is the base of all the ethical system of an ENTp, it's incredibly sad... What happens if you take away the fear?

Everything you're asking about seems incredibly E6-related. Most ENTps are sixes, so it makes sense. But still, those traits aren't necessarily related to Socionics IMO.


EDIT: But the stuff in the beginning I think is relevant. I really don't understand your husband's way of associating "family" with whoever is actually related to them. Why are the people who have the highest capacity to know and care for what's best for us the people we just happen to be born with? My "real" family is more important than my biological/socially-validated one.

[Elro]

Everything you're asking about seems incredibly E6-related. Most ENTps are sixes, so it makes sense.

??

[implied]

@consentingadult -

this strikes me as true in my experience -

Fi – The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know.
He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…
ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him.
ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information.

a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.

[Blaze]

@consentingadult -

this strikes me as true in my experience -




[/i]
a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.

yeah we know we suck at Fi so we overcompensate. way overcompensate. hahahaha i bet every type does weird things with their polr though.

[consentingadult]

@consentingadult -

this strikes me as true in my experience -

[/i]
a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.

Somehow, I missed your post, sorry for responding so late.

I agree, I've seen it in ILEs myself, strong moralism or a total rejection of ethics and an 'inability' to provide a rationale for whatever ethical POV. Also, an inability to see that other people need other 'rules of engagement'. Even for me, that particular line confused me in my self typing, because from the inside, it's hard to tell if your own Fi is Creative or PoLR.

Hmmm... as I'm writing all of this stuff, it seems to be going nowhere... Let me think about it a little bit more...

To be continued...

[Lotus]

??

ENTp 6 seems like a pretty common typing. Did you disagree?

[implied]

ENTp 6 seems like a pretty common typing. Did you disagree?

it doesn't seem entirely uncommon at the least.

[Lotus]

He "understands" all this when I explain it like you did here, and he accepts it, but he feels it's "wrong". It kind of messes up the way he perceives the world, I think. I don't understand neither. I thought maybe it's those (in)famous Ti-rules we see in action? And one of his rules seems to be "family=happy", and I think maybe he can't really cope with the fact that it's not always like that. But I don't get Ti creative at all, especially not in relations. They seem so "stiff" and not relating to reality.

Any ILEs caring to clarify....?

Maybe "family=happy" was a rule he developed based on his own personal experience? He grew up being able to associate "family" with "happy" and therefore believes that it is a general rule? Agh, I have no clue. He seems to want what's best for the kids in that example you brought up, but he assumes that "family" is the same thing to these kids as it is to him. Like, "Why wouldn't everyone want family?" but based on his experience of what "family" is. It can't be applied to everyone.

[HollywoodWanderer]

Maybe he had a stable family growing up and enjoyed it?

[consentingadult]

Does Filtova's descrition of Fi in the IE provide any clues for you, escpecially the bold part:

Fi – The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know.
He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…
ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him.
ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information.

[consentingadult]

This states more or less how I see him, but I'd like to understand HOW his rules work - where do they come from, how are they formed, how do they work, how are they applied, etc.

He's Fi PoLR, so his set of ethical rules must be based on something other than Fi, and that's where I fail to follow...

Aren't you perhaps trying to be good at something you're not? I mean, at work I have a new LSI manager and I'm seriously considering getting the hell out of there instead of trying to understand her

I'm just kidding: I know you won't let it go till you have figured it out

[consentingadult]

I hoped to gain some insight into Ti, actually, not my husband. I just used him as an example. I think I have him figured out pretty well.

That's exactly what I meant: you're trying to figure out Ti, your PoLR. Why bother??