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Thread: Ethics in ENTp

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    I think this is not just ILE, it's Apha in general (Betas too but in a different way). My SEI gf argues in the same fashion. Imo, it's Fe based, it's about taking care of each other emotionally, as opposed to Gammas, who take care of each other economically. Betas are dependent on others for both emotional and economic support.

    In the case of ILEs, there might be some sense of fear of abandonment involved, although not of pathological proportions. Would that make sense in your husbands case?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    That makes some sense, yes.

    My ESE mother talks about "doing your duty" of "taking care" of husband and kids. (I don't like thinking of any "duty" being involved, as it seems very cold. However she seems really angry with me when I tell her I don't find it my "duty" ...)


    Maybe. And that might be the "base" for his "rules"? But how do the rules work? I can't "see" them? My rules are about relations and involve pros/cons. His rules are so different! I still don't "feel" them.
    Have you, as an adult, ever felt so alone and deserted, that you felt like a little girl crying with snot coming out of her nose, that you wished your mom was there to hold you, to make you feel safe and protected, to comfort and console you, to have her say "It's all right sweetie, I'm with you now"? If so, then for you such moments are more likely incidental, but to many SLEs and ILEs such a need exists on an existential level, i.e. in the background, the feeling is always there.

    Do you feel it now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I don't think I've ever felt like that except once when I was a teenager. Do SLEs and ILEs feel like that frequently???!!!!

    And yes, I feel the fear.
    Do you say fear is the base of all/most ENTp ethical rules, or just the one about "family"? If fear is the base of all the ethical system of an ENTp, it's incredibly sad... What happens if you take away the fear?
    They typically hide it behind a lot of bravado, SLEs behind a though bravado, ILEs behind an intellectual bravado. ILEs are (depending on their level of psychological health) afraid that at some stage there will not be anyone around to take care of hem emotionally. "Family" is the first port of call, but some people (whatever their type) have lost faith in "family" and thus fill that gap with other types of groups.

    The only way to take away the fear from an ILE, is to fully accept him and provide ample opportunities for him to be himself in his interaction with you. Now it is not my intention to discourage you, but there is only one type who can do that naturally: SEIs. This is not just my theoretical understanding, I've seen it in reality. Socionics is a beautiful 'science'.

    If the fear is taken away, they become relaxed into their bodies (Si), less intellectual, their Ne takes more realistic proportions and their creativity becomes more useful. The learn to live more in the moment and less distrusting of people in general (although this distrust typically is masked with an air of self-confidence), less people pleasing, and their need for acting like clowns diminishes as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    If fear is the base of all the ethical system of an ENTp, it's incredibly sad... What happens if you take away the fear?
    Everything you're asking about seems incredibly E6-related. Most ENTps are sixes, so it makes sense. But still, those traits aren't necessarily related to Socionics IMO.


    EDIT: But the stuff in the beginning I think is relevant. I really don't understand your husband's way of associating "family" with whoever is actually related to them. Why are the people who have the highest capacity to know and care for what's best for us the people we just happen to be born with? My "real" family is more important than my biological/socially-validated one.
    Last edited by Lotus; 09-10-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    He "understands" all this when I explain it like you did here, and he accepts it, but he feels it's "wrong". It kind of messes up the way he perceives the world, I think. I don't understand neither. I thought maybe it's those (in)famous Ti-rules we see in action? And one of his rules seems to be "family=happy", and I think maybe he can't really cope with the fact that it's not always like that. But I don't get Ti creative at all, especially not in relations. They seem so "stiff" and not relating to reality.

    Any ILEs caring to clarify....?
    Maybe "family=happy" was a rule he developed based on his own personal experience? He grew up being able to associate "family" with "happy" and therefore believes that it is a general rule? Agh, I have no clue. He seems to want what's best for the kids in that example you brought up, but he assumes that "family" is the same thing to these kids as it is to him. Like, "Why wouldn't everyone want family?" but based on his experience of what "family" is. It can't be applied to everyone.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Does Filtova's descrition of Fi in the IE provide any clues for you, escpecially the bold part:

    Fi – The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know.
    He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…
    ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him.
    ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information.
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    This states more or less how I see him, but I'd like to understand HOW his rules work - where do they come from, how are they formed, how do they work, how are they applied, etc.

    He's Fi PoLR, so his set of ethical rules must be based on something other than Fi, and that's where I fail to follow...
    Aren't you perhaps trying to be good at something you're not? I mean, at work I have a new LSI manager and I'm seriously considering getting the hell out of there instead of trying to understand her

    I'm just kidding: I know you won't let it go till you have figured it out
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Everything you're asking about seems incredibly E6-related. Most ENTps are sixes, so it makes sense.
    ??
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    Actually this is a question I have had per my desire to place everything in neat little boxes...

    Hypothetically...

    Are "we" saying the point of view is "we're together, no matter what, even if we're totally miserable and never get along, because we're family... we'll somehow work it out"

    and that the point of view is "we're together because the relationship is healthy and beneficial to all involved, but if we go through periods of severe stormy irreconcilable problems or differences, then the relationship must be cut off, even if we're family..." in other words the strength/health/benefits of the relationship outweigh other factors.

    ???

    Also, the sense of duty... "because I have X relation to you I therefore have a duty to behave a certain way towards you..." For some reason, I thought that sort of thing was >.

    I don't really want to completely dichotomize everything into boxes... I'm more trying to center on something... (it's more if there's a balance does one tip slightly more one way than the other...)
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-11-2008 at 12:11 AM. Reason: paranthetical

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    @consentingadult -

    this strikes me as true in my experience -

    Fi – The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know.
    He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…
    ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him.
    ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information.




    a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    ??
    ENTp 6 seems like a pretty common typing. Did you disagree?
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    ENTp 6 seems like a pretty common typing. Did you disagree?
    it doesn't seem entirely uncommon at the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    it doesn't seem entirely uncommon at the least.
    Well yeah, I wasn't saying all ENTps are sixes. But if you think of all the E-types most common for an ENTp (5, 6, or 7 usually?), six tends to be prevalent. This is all IME though, so whatever.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    My impression is that 7s are considerably more prevalent for ILEs. That's not to say 6's can't be ILEs or vice-versa, but I definitely wouldn't link 6s as most likely to be ILEs or ILEs most likely to be 6s from my understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    My impression is that 7s are considerably more prevalent for ILEs. That's not to say 6's can't be ILEs or vice-versa, but I definitely wouldn't link 6s as most likely to be ILEs or ILEs most likely to be 6s from my understanding.
    Neither would I.

    What I meant in that post was that it sounded like she was describing an ILE 6 and that the fears she referred to were most likely due to their E-type rather than their Socionics type.
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    Ah, I see. Sorry, I don't read very carefully all the time
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    i don't see what the fuck the principles described have to do with 6, and i don't think ILE 6 is an especially good arrangement.

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    Fi is something that just isn't at all prevalent in my mind. What ethical rules I have are very flexible and subject to changing circumstances. My concern when constructing ethics is a sense of balance and the idea that others should not be hurt or their basic human rights infringed upon. From there, everything is in a grey area and I might say something one day then say the complete opposite the next. Where I'm concerned, I value respect and it's on a plane of respect that I make ethical decisions. For instance, I'll treat someone I have absolutely no respect for like shit because I simply don't care. Similarly if someone has no respect for me, I'll treat them like shit because I don't care anymore. When others hold me in regard or I hold them in regard, or if I simply have no reason to disrespect them, then I treat them by the rules mentioned above, and I get upset if those rules are broken.

    Family, in my case, is very important because they're people with whom I have a deep and strong emotional attachment to. I mean even then I often feel detached. What's important to note is that I have difficulty experiencing deep emotional bonds with people so I hold the ones that hit that point in the highest regard. I'm an addict for feeling things because it's something that doesn't happen frequently. So my ethical standards regarding family are the highest and that same standard then gets projected onto others.

    That being said, my opinions differ from those of your husband, Mimosa. But the idea of family as a focal point could be similar nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    i don't see what the fuck the principles described have to do with 6, and i don't think ILE 6 is an especially good arrangement.
    Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    [...] afraid that at some stage there will not be anyone around to take care of hem emotionally. "Family" is the first port of call, but some people (whatever their type) have lost faith in "family" and thus fill that gap with other types of groups.

    The only way to take away the fear from an ILE, is to fully accept him and provide ample opportunities for him to be himself in his interaction with you. Now it is not my intention to discourage you, but there is only one type who can do that naturally: SEIs. This is not just my theoretical understanding, I've seen it in reality. Socionics is a beautiful 'science'.

    If the fear is taken away, they become relaxed into their bodies (Si), less intellectual, their Ne takes more realistic proportions and their creativity becomes more useful. The learn to live more in the moment and less distrusting of people in general (although this distrust typically is masked with an air of self-confidence), less people pleasing, and their need for acting like clowns diminishes as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    My ILE-husband says "family" is the most important thing in his life. He can be very sad whenever his friends with children break up, saying he feel sorry for the person left "alone" (often the man if the woman keeps the kids). I don't get his "family-entity-rules". I mean, I love to see happy families, but if I see families struggle, I think they should not stay together. My husband says he agrees, but somehow seems to think that it's "wrong" for families to not be happy. As if "family"="happy".
    Compare all that to this:
    Type Six in Brief

    The committed, security-oriented type. Sixes are reliable, hard-working, responsible, and trustworthy. Excellent "troubleshooters," they foresee problems and foster cooperation, but can also become defensive, evasive, and anxious—running on stress while complaining about it. They can be cautious and indecisive, but also reactive, defiant and rebellious. They typically have problems with self-doubt and suspicion. At their Best: internally stable and self-reliant, courageously championing themselves and others.
    • Basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance
    • Basic Desire: To have security and support
    • Enneagram Six with a Five-Wing: "The Defender"
    • Enneagram Six with a Seven-Wing: "The Buddy"
    Key Motivations: Want to have security, to feel supported by others, to have certitude and reassurance, to test the attitudes of others toward them, to fight against anxiety and insecurity.
    Type Six Overview

    We have named personality type Six The Loyalist because, of all the personality types, Sixes are the most loyal to their friends and to their beliefs. They will “go down with the ship” and hang on to relationships of all kinds far longer than most other types. Sixes are also loyal to ideas, systems, and beliefs—even to the belief that all ideas or authorities should be questioned or defied. Indeed, not all Sixes go along with the “status quo”: their beliefs may be rebellious and anti-authoritarian, even revolutionary. In any case, they will typically fight for their beliefs more fiercely than they will fight for themselves, and they will defend their community or family more tenaciously than they will defend themselves.
    The reason Sixes are so loyal to others is that they do not want to be abandoned and left without support—their Basic Fear. Thus, the central issue for type Six is a failure of self-confidence. Sixes come to believe that they do not possess the internal resources to handle life’s challenges and vagaries alone, and so increasingly rely on structures, allies, beliefs, and supports outside themselves for guidance to survive. If suitable structures do not exist, they will help create and maintain them.
    Mimosa and consent.. w/e kept going on about a need to believe in "family" and a reassurance of someone being there. A support. The insecurities or "fear" they spoke of sounded extremely sixish. The attachment wasn't to family itself, but the concept or idea of "family" apparently. Thinking someone would be all "alone" without this attachment. The belief/concept of family seemed more like a structure or support. Especially since he said the belief/concept in family was something irrational that he didn't understand. That alone made me think it was some sort of underlying insecurity rather than his socionics type. And this just happens to be the underlying fear of the Enneagram six.

    Sorry that's written so poorly. I really don't feel like putting together anything that requires much effort tonight. I'm multi-tasking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed
    i don't see what the fuck the principles described have to do with 6, and i don't think ILE 6 is an especially good arrangement.
    6 is part of the compliant social style. This hornevian group is named such because they are compliant to the internal rules, principles and codes they have developed. The way this manifests with a 6 is, they feel obligated to their ties (to people, systems, ideas) and the beliefs underlying these associations, whether it's a place where they grew up or a club in high school. 6's (along with 1's) are probably the most focused on principles of all the enneagram types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    Imo, it's Fe based, it's about taking care of each other emotionally, as opposed to Gammas, who take care of each other economically. Betas are dependent on others for both emotional and economic support.
    el oh el at you, indeed. Fe = emotional support and Te = economic support. Gah, no wonder my ESE mom is always there for me emotionally. And my ENFp dad just loves practicality. This is revelational.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    Have you, as an adult, ever felt so alone and deserted, that you felt like a little girl crying with snot coming out of her nose, that you wished your mom was there to hold you, to make you feel safe and protected, to comfort and console you, to have her say "It's all right sweetie, I'm with you now"? If so, then for you such moments are more likely incidental, but to many SLEs and ILEs such a need exists on an existential level, i.e. in the background, the feeling is always there.
    Um, no. If anything, this about being a 6 (or a 4, for that matter) -- fearing emotional abandonment and that nobody cares about you

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    They typically hide it behind a lot of bravado, SLEs behind a though bravado, ILEs behind an intellectual bravado. ILEs are (depending on their level of psychological health) afraid that at some stage there will not be anyone around to take care of hem emotionally. "Family" is the first port of call, but some people (whatever their type) have lost faith in "family" and thus fill that gap with other types of groups.

    The only way to take away the fear from an ILE, is to fully accept him and provide ample opportunities for him to be himself in his interaction with you. Now it is not my intention to discourage you, but there is only one type who can do that naturally: SEIs. This is not just my theoretical understanding, I've seen it in reality. Socionics is a beautiful 'science'.

    If the fear is taken away, they become relaxed into their bodies (Si), less intellectual, their Ne takes more realistic proportions and their creativity becomes more useful. The learn to live more in the moment and less distrusting of people in general (although this distrust typically is masked with an air of self-confidence), less people pleasing, and their need for acting like clowns diminishes as well.
    Good points here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MimosaPudica
    Actually, I'm quite sure he's an E7, and if I'd guess a wing, I'd say a definite 8.
    The chances of an ILE 7w8 are slim. The way you're describing him does not seem like a 7. The whole reliance and contentment with associations/ties seems like object attachment relations (3, 6, 9) -- attaching oneself to things perceived as good and taking comfort when these needs are met. And the fears of abandonment seem to point to reactive harmonic style (4, 6, 8).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Maybe he had a stable family growing up and enjoyed it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I hoped to gain some insight into Ti, actually, not my husband. I just used him as an example. I think I have him figured out pretty well.
    That's exactly what I meant: you're trying to figure out Ti, your PoLR. Why bother??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are "we" saying the point of view is "we're together, no matter what, even if we're totally miserable and never get along, because we're family... we'll somehow work it out"
    From where I'm standing, absolutely. Which may come as a shock if you know some of my recent history....but absolutely.

    To me it's about the idea of family always being there for each other - once I define someone under "family" I would do anything for them, I mean help them out on the side of the road at 3am, right down to take responsibility of their kids if something was to happen to them, it's that idea of unconditional love, like the love of a mother for example. (Or at least my idealism of a mother)...

    I don't just put blood relatives into this category, in fact, I don't include parts of my extended family in that group that I class as my "real" family. These are the people I do class as my "real" family:

    - My husband (currently separated, but I'm trying to patch things up and get back on track for the better)
    - My mother: Although we don't always see eye to eye and can be rather vocal about it at times (she's ISFj), I'd always be there for her in a jam
    - My father: We don't get along at all, barely even talk even while living together and I'd say things are more than strained (he's INTp), but if something ever happened to him I'd probably be the first or one of the first to be there. I have been in this position in the past and that was always the case.
    - My brother: Not always there for me when I need him, but never consciously (most likely INTj). He always means well, he is always concerned for me. Plus, even if he towers over me, he's still my kid brother.
    - My best friend and her fiancé: I've known my bestie (ESFj) for 12 years, her fiancé roughly 6 years. They are family to me like any other.
    - Another bestie, male, friends for 12 years.
    - A relatively new friend that has been there for me without pressure during hard times when a lot of people weren't. This is reciprocal and I appreciate his selflessness and empathy.
    - My grandparents on one side
    - A select few aunts and uncles

    __________________________________

    That's about it. For those people the above rule applies. It's almost like a class above the standard idea of family.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    not at all!!! the enneagram is a bullshit and i don't understand its place on this forums!
    i've made a test and fell into the 6 type, it looks the closest to ILEs, some things apply and some don't:
    - being without support: yes
    - being without guidance: no. we are independent in thinking more than most other types.
    - basic desire security and support: NO! actually our basic drive is to discover, to find new ways of making the life better and whatnot. security is a (basic) necessity for ILEs, not a drive. the anxiety comes in forseeing instability could threaten our progress.
    - "They will “go down with the ship” and hang on to relationships of all kinds far longer than most other types": no f***ing way! we could change how many relationships the situations require, but we would like to have stability because we have NO INTEREST to waste precious time about this issues, while being aware one can't do something important without support in daily matter. i know isolated ILEs far away from their families and proud of their non-attachment. they managed to be self cared and some are not even interested in a relationship.
    - "they will defend their community or family more tenaciously than they will defend themselves.": it is true that we become lions in defending our families although we're not so motivated in defending ourselves, but i DOUBT about the communities. we hate injustice and i, personally, don't feel any drive to defend even the closest relatives if they prove guilty or "played with the fire".
    other enneagram types don't apply 100&#37; to ILEs, as well.
    period.
    -----------
    on topic:
    Mimosa Pudica, i think every ENTP has "great plans" but need a stable base to begin working on them, we need the space to put our "tools" ready for work. we need independence and being "deported", changing environment means starting over. that explains the paradox of interest vs lack of interest in families for ILEs. etc. gtg
    Great! You're just showed me that you don't think you are an E6! Now what's your point? I never said ILE = E6. However many ILEs do strongly identify with E6 so please don't speak for them.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros
    not at all!!! the enneagram is a bullshit and i don't understand its place on this forums!
    i've made a test and fell into the 6 type, it looks the closest to ILEs, some things apply and some don't:
    - being without support: yes
    - being without guidance: no. we are independent in thinking more than most other types.
    - basic desire security and support: NO! actually our basic drive is to discover, to find new ways of making the life better and whatnot. security is a (basic) necessity for ILEs, not a drive. the anxiety comes in forseeing instability could threaten our progress.
    - "They will “go down with the ship” and hang on to relationships of all kinds far longer than most other types": no f***ing way! we could change how many relationships the situations require, but we would like to have stability because we have NO INTEREST to waste precious time about this issues, while being aware one can't do something important without support in daily matter. i know isolated ILEs far away from their families and proud of their non-attachment. they managed to be self cared and some are not even interested in a relationship.
    - "they will defend their community or family more tenaciously than they will defend themselves.": it is true that we become lions in defending our families although we're not so motivated in defending ourselves, but i DOUBT about the communities. we hate injustice and i, personally, don't feel any drive to defend even the closest relatives if they prove guilty or "played with the fire".
    other enneagram types don't apply 100% to ILEs, as well.
    Shut up, you don't know shit, clown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I think this is not just ILE, it's Apha in general (Betas too but in a different way). My SEI gf argues in the same fashion. Imo, it's Fe based, it's about taking care of each other emotionally, as opposed to Gammas, who take care of each other economically. Betas are dependent on others for both emotional and economic support.

    In the case of ILEs, there might be some sense of fear of abandonment involved, although not of pathological proportions. Would that make sense in your husbands case?
    i never thought about it this way but i think you are totally on to something. i really don't need a sugardaddy or someone to take care of me financially, but i'm quite dependent on emotional support.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    @consentingadult -

    this strikes me as true in my experience -




    [/i]
    a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.

    yeah we know we suck at Fi so we overcompensate. way overcompensate. hahahaha i bet every type does weird things with their polr though.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    i never thought about it this way but i think you are totally on to something. i really don't need a sugardaddy or someone to take care of me financially, but i'm quite dependent on emotional support.
    Could you give examples of how you see it working in your life?
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Could you give examples of how you see it working in your life?

    yes....i'm in a relationship right now with an IEI and i don't worry so much about him financially taking care of me, since i'm setting things up so i can take care of myself. i really don't want to have to worry about "getting a guy who can take care of me." like, my delta parents think this is really important and i don't give a rat's ass about it. i feel like i have more latitude and freedom in who i choose to be with when i can just look at the person for who they are not so much for whether they can financially take care of me. nor do i much want to financially take care of him either, more like i'd like to support his efforts on behalf of himself. but i totally need and want emotional support. and he gives this to me....and it's amazing how much better i function with him than with my ex, who is SLE.

    dunno...what you said just really resonated with me. money's like a given. i can get it pretty easily and i'm kinda like a thoroughbred racehorse. you take care of me emotionally, and rub my feet, and i'm off to win the race. make sense?

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    @consentingadult -

    this strikes me as true in my experience -

    [/i]
    a lot of them actually strike me as overconcerned with ethics. i guess hkkmr is one ENTp who i have met who gives this impression. actually he moralizes a lot where i don't think it would be necessary. i also have seen Ti dominants having this strong sense of "ethics" which seems to be something like a -role to me, being concerned with being a good guy. i'm not entirely sure i understand how ENTp ethics work either. but it comes off as a sort of naivety regarding , in the sense of what you bolded.
    Somehow, I missed your post, sorry for responding so late.

    I agree, I've seen it in ILEs myself, strong moralism or a total rejection of ethics and an 'inability' to provide a rationale for whatever ethical POV. Also, an inability to see that other people need other 'rules of engagement'. Even for me, that particular line confused me in my self typing, because from the inside, it's hard to tell if your own Fi is Creative or PoLR.

    Hmmm... as I'm writing all of this stuff, it seems to be going nowhere... Let me think about it a little bit more...

    To be continued...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    dunno...what you said just really resonated with me. money's like a given. i can get it pretty easily and i'm kinda like a thoroughbred racehorse. you take care of me emotionally, and rub my feet, and i'm off to win the race. make sense?
    Yes, it does. Lets take a look at situations where you are feeling stress and in need of support. What do you feel at such moments, and what is it specifically you want from your partner?

    Does the following ring a bell with you: early this year I had to collect paperwork for legal purposes, and as usual was procrastinating on it, until there was no more time left and I simply had to do it, but the anxiety made me freeze to the ground. I asked my gf for a hug, cried, let go of the anxiety, got relaxed, sat down and finished the work in three hours. I didn't need her practical help, at that moment I just needed a shoulder to cry on. She helped me to face my fears. (before people start thinking I'm ILE, please note that it was I who asked for support, not my gf offering me support unsolicited )
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Yes, it does. Lets take a look at situations where you are feeling stress and in need of support. What do you feel at such moments, and what is it specifically you want from your partner?
    well let's take right now for instance. i've just started a new job and it's stressful because the people are unknowns and the procedures are unknown. i don't worry about the procedures...just ask and then follow. the people part gets me a little more worried. there were a lot of people hired at once and there's a lot of political type jockeying going on right now as the newly hired try to define their positions, roles, and try to become agents of influence. without my going into it too much there's things about it that make for a lot of ethical complication for me due to who i am and where i come from. so i stress out about how to best position myself in this environment. and also about whether i've stepped on people's toes or offended anybody.

    what helps me? talking to somebody who won't judge my anxiety ridden struggles with this and who can offer useful suggestions on what to do today about things. somebody who will maintain an even emotional atmosphere in the home (since i can't do that) and try to get me to laugh. somebody who will cook tonight since i don't fucking feel like it.

    by way of contrast, my SLE ex used to give me Se type of advice. this worked fine for him but i didn't benefit all that much. i mean, i can BE organized, diligent, strategic, forceful and goal oriented, but i can't PERCEIVE people's wants, needs, power, and will very well. so any type of Se-related advice unfortunately doesn't do dick to help me out. plus he used to mix in with it his own Fi polr type stuff: "they're all just a buncha assholes anyway, who cares?" "she's weak, don't worry about her."

    but anyway i found the fact that he could do things the way he did and be effective quite admirable, but inherent in his advice towards me was a judgement against my Ne way of looking at things. so, part of what made the advice not useful was his lack of acceptance of who i am and the best way for me to do things. and that's just SLE, really. they think they are the best and everybody else is an idiot. so no point in personalizing it or anything, as i've learned.

    Does the following ring a bell with you: early this year I had to collect paperwork for legal purposes, and as usual was procrastinating on it, until there was no more time left and I simply had to do it, but the anxiety made me freeze to the ground. I asked my gf for a hug, cried, let go of the anxiety, got relaxed, sat down and finished the work in three hours. I didn't need her practical help, at that moment I just needed a shoulder to cry on. She helped me to face my fears. (before people start thinking I'm ILE, please note that it was I who asked for support, not my gf offering me support unsolicited )
    i do understand and totally relate to your process here. i've had the experience of being overwhelmed and feeling inadequate (like in people/political situations) and just breaking down. you said a couple of pages ago that only SEI can help ILE, but i'd have to say that at my age, i've gotten some very useful help from infpman.

    i'm not sure of your type but what you said up there sounds kinda more like weak Se or Ti than weak Fi. i would not stress out about something like that (not that i don't understand why you would!! ). this type of thing would energize me. i would dig in and figure out how to win. look for a lot of information, get data data data, and figure out a spin. it would almost be fun.

    dunno....am i still making any sense?

    ILE

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    funny. i just noticed, consentingadult, that you asked me how i feel at stressful moments and i didn't really answer your question. haha i said i feel stressed in stressful moments and i want somebody to help me figure out what to do. very T of me.

    i guess what i missed is that part of what i need is for somebody to help me figure out what i feel since what i feel is this vague yet overwhelming, undifferentiated stress. ultimately, this helping path usually visits the following themes: 1. usually some of my feelings are based on things that i'm speculating about and don't really know(Ne). so throw that out. 2. usually i'm not thinking about the perspective of others. so, being helped to do that usually loosens up that tightness a bit and points toward solutions. 3. i could be applying some type of rigid ethical rule, unknowingly, and having expectations that are too high. let it go. 4. i possibly could have offended some types with too much honesty, so figure out how to get that back or STFU next time.

    great sex is very relaxing, too.

    also mimosa, didn't mean to derail here too much....but maybe my posts help you understand your husband? the fundamental issue is that ILE is not naturally ethically inclined. so we are always worrying about our relationships, especially if no one who understands us is helping us. the older we get, the more experience with people we get, the more we see this. the tendency would be for us to apply a rigid expectation of support from family relationships. especially since the relational landscape for ILE's is very difficult, so we figure at least our family is there for us. while human relationships may not be difficult for YOU, they are for us. extremely so.

    i'm probably quite a bit older than your husband though. i've seen it the way he does, but over the last few years, have substantially changed my mind about expectations of family members, especially where the socionic relationships between said family members are not the best (for example, supervision). at this point, what i see much more clearly for myself is the need to let go of trying to substantially change or improve my family relationships. it's more like minimize the negativity with them and figuring out for myself how much time and effort i feel ok about putting in.

    i'm much better off putting effort into relationships with people who will naturally appreciate me, and who i can appreciate, whether they are family members or not.
    Last edited by Blaze; 09-14-2008 at 05:33 PM.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    i do understand and totally relate to your process here. i've had the experience of being overwhelmed and feeling inadequate (like in people/political situations) and just breaking down. you said a couple of pages ago that only SEI can help ILE, but i'd have to say that at my age, i've gotten some very useful help from infpman.

    i'm not sure of your type but what you said up there sounds kinda more like weak Se or Ti than weak Fi. i would not stress out about something like that (not that i don't understand why you would!! ). this type of thing would energize me. i would dig in and figure out how to win. look for a lot of information, get data data data, and figure out a spin. it would almost be fun.

    dunno....am i still making any sense?

    Yes, you are making a lot of sense here. First of all, I agree that with age, comes skill and balance. I also agree that a lot of anxiety can be overcome by having someone around understand and support you without being judged. I speculate that this is because we are being to hard on ourselves, and by accepting us the way we are, our mates show us that it is okay to accept ourselves, and the tension/anxiety goes away.

    I also think it's very funny how you contrast procedures vs. political games, because political games always energize me, but when people start forcing procedures on me, I start feeling like I'm doing it all wrong and insecure, I stick strictly to the procedures and become quite unproductive. This is happening to me right now: in the past year management only gave me targets and goals and left it up to me how to accomplish them, and this gave me the space to do things the way I thought was best, and to take away a lot of the 'pain' for other people in the chaos we were in. But now I have a new manager who's job it is to streamline the department into one that applies ITIL procedures. All of a sudden, I feel like my accomplishments are no longer appreciated and no longer can do good.

    As to my own fears, deep inside, they basically come down to not doing my responsibilities because I'm afraid that I will be judged negatively, regardless of how well I perform. So to avoid criticism, I don't do my chores.

    With regards to what I said about the relationship between SEI and ILE, of course, you can also learn and be helped by other types, one better than another. It sounded like black-and-white thinking, but this is obviously not how I meant it. I do not believe I'm ILE, still, my SEI gf helps me a great deal.

    I like the way you put into words the most effective strategy for avoiding interpersonal stress: lowering your expectations of other people you don't feel comfortable about, stop putting energy in them and focus more on people you get along with naturally. I couldn't have said it more effectively myself
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    if i'd have to identify with an enneagram type i'd surely identify with 6 or 5 (my type doing the last test was 6). it's like choosing between the only options, "dumb" and "stupid". the enneagram types are fallacies of accident (a kind of logic errors) crying out loud.
    how the damn a sane person can assume things like these:
    - need for support = need for guidance = the same type
    - the basic fear of person X is being abandoned, therefore his drive is security
    so, if his security need is satisfied, he'll loose all the drive and will sit all day laying in bed without a purpose??
    - the basic drive of person X is security, therefore he remains loyal to his beliefs.
    (make any combination you like)
    let me remind you these "loyal until death" ILEs in whom name i was so bold to talk, should discard their past achievements, they should have a tendency to change relationships for experimenting something new, they should be driven by possibilities, potential, they should have "the ultimate goal of introducing novelty and fresh perspectives", they should take the most radical solutions in changing their lives and others', shouldn't they?? they're suddenly not interested in new strange phenomenons but in building a fortress?
    i have the feeling the purpose of this so-called science is to judge people instead of discovering the true human nature.

    please excuse my rudeness.
    Don't worry, you're excused. You obviously haven't learned much about Socionics or Enneagram. I'll excuse to to do that before you ever talk to me again.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Yes, you are making a lot of sense here. First of all, I agree that with age, comes skill and balance. I also agree that a lot of anxiety can be overcome by having someone around understand and support you without being judged. I speculate that this is because we are being to hard on ourselves, and by accepting us the way we are, our mates show us that it is okay to accept ourselves, and the tension/anxiety goes away.

    I also think it's very funny how you contrast procedures vs. political games, because political games always energize me, but when people start forcing procedures on me, I start feeling like I'm doing it all wrong and insecure, I stick strictly to the procedures and become quite unproductive. This is happening to me right now: in the past year management only gave me targets and goals and left it up to me how to accomplish them, and this gave me the space to do things the way I thought was best, and to take away a lot of the 'pain' for other people in the chaos we were in. But now I have a new manager who's job it is to streamline the department into one that applies ITIL procedures. All of a sudden, I feel like my accomplishments are no longer appreciated and no longer can do good.

    As to my own fears, deep inside, they basically come down to not doing my responsibilities because I'm afraid that I will be judged negatively, regardless of how well I perform. So to avoid criticism, I don't do my chores.

    With regards to what I said about the relationship between SEI and ILE, of course, you can also learn and be helped by other types, one better than another. It sounded like black-and-white thinking, but this is obviously not how I meant it. I do not believe I'm ILE, still, my SEI gf helps me a great deal.

    I like the way you put into words the most effective strategy for avoiding interpersonal stress: lowering your expectations of other people you don't feel comfortable about, stop putting energy in them and focus more on people you get along with naturally. I couldn't have said it more effectively myself
    hahahaha that is very funny what you are saying about procedures. i guess i don't like being micromanaged either, and that is how i feel in a job where they won't give me any leeway. i don't worry about procedures though; i try to find a way around them or just do them. but i think ILE and IEE both like to have room to work. ILE=more technical; IEE=more political/relational. if i don't like procedures, i'll try to write new ones that work to my advantage. systems stuff i guess. lol isn't it funny how the flow of management can change your whole world at work? happened to me in my last job...guess i adapted pretty well, but it was like a 180 at first. i can picture you being able to handle the people aspect of things well; i'd kill to be able to do this. as it is, i try to keep in mind that if i keep my eye on giving them great product, (which i am great at) and make them look good then maybe my political skills won't matter so much? at least i'm hoping.....

    have you figured out your type? do you think you could be an IEE? then you'd be in a semi dual relation with your SEI girlfriend, which i could see being pretty grounding.

    well thank you for your compliment about what i wrote. call it an advanced Fi rule of thumb easier to write about than to actually do, but yes, what i strive for with those more difficult relationships.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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