Acting like your dual

[Amber]

DJA is a total jerk and full retard. mu4's video is a more realistic representation of the guy.
But awesome that he found someone to pierce through his heart and see "sensitivity". Retypes AS IEI.

And what relationship advice. No really. A Fi inferior trying to crutch a Fi polr. All this is so ridiculous. AS is falling right in the guy's lap without much self-respect. Why not. Bisexuality is liberating.

You must be joking about DjA. Whenever I'd talk to him on TypoC in just a tiny little bit stronger style than my default neutral, he'd always be this pussy and back down very quickly, openly pleading for me to stop and leave him alone. He just likes to play drama in his videos. I dunno are we supposed to chalk this up to his life stress too? I'm being a bit sarcastic here, yeah.. I don't have a problem with him otherwise but I think he's really fake in presentation lol.

I also think Ni creative for him is more likely than SLE.

This is true. I do think he's SLE, but a very unhealthy one whose Se doesn't come out as confidence, but as extremely volatile paranoid aggression.

[Words]

Hi, mu4.
That video is totally my SLE friend from college. Karate and everything. One night, after he had had no luck in the bars, he went down the street trying to kick in the side windows of the parked cars. Fortunately, they are tempered glass and didn't break. Plus, he was incredibly drunk and not on his game. Otherwise, he'd have cut his foot off. But that's low Ni, the inability to see where your actions are leading.
He settled down a lot after he got married. Amazingly enough, he never went to jail. Luckiest bastard I've ever known.

No it's a drunk, young, asshole which can be any type

Even LIE

[Words]

DJ Arendee is a total jerk and full retard. mu4's video is a more realistic representation of the guy.
But awesome that he found someone to pierce through his heart and see "sensitivity". Retypes AS IEI.

And what relationship advice. No really. A Fi inferior trying to crutch a Fi polr. All this is so ridiculous. AS is close to falling in the guy's lap without much self-respect. Why not. Bisexuality is liberating.




This is true. I do think he's SLE, but a very unhealthy one whose Se doesn't come out as confidence, but as extremely volatile paranoid aggression.

AS goes on a bit for LIE, or Te lead, I'm trying to think of a Te lead he could resemble.

He has Ni, P temperament, no roughness or straight to point efficiency.

With that aside, takes too long to get to his point, also weird Fe ethical judgements in how he compares people, IEI, troll account.

[Adam Strange]

AS goes on a bit for LIE, or Te lead, I'm trying to think of a Te lead he could resemble.

He has Ni, P temperament, no roughness or straight to point efficiency.

With that aside, takes too long to get to his point, also weird Fe ethical judgements in how he compares people, IEI, troll account.

Yes, most of the LIE's I know are more "straight to the point" than me. They don't win with people as much as I do, though. They don't convert them to their own way of thinking, which I find is more efficient in the long run than just saying, Do this or you can't play with us anymore. Diplomacy has its uses. Maybe that's where you see the Fe and IEI'ness. But you don't see me at work, and have never seen me when I get upset. This forum is basically relaxation and information gathering for me, it is not competition. I save competition for work, and even then, I prefer cooperation. Doesn't mean I don't plan ahead and marshal open, overwhelming attacks on a problem.

One mitigating factor might be my age, which is higher than I'd like. Also, I have a very high IQ, and IQ is an age multiplication factor of how much you know vs how much the average person of your age knows and ENTJ's tend to develop as they age. I didn't really become an ENTJ, as they are conventionally thought of, until I was about 25. I was pretty terse then. Before that, I was just gathering information and contacts. Since then, I've been trying to become more effective. You can call it smooth, you can call it Healthy, but I call it effective.

Consider this when you are typing me. There are almost no LIE's with a Te tendency on this or any other forum. Most LIE's don't even believe they have an inner psychology, so your sample size and experience are going to be very low. I may be setting the curve.

[Words]

Yes, most of the LIE's I know are more "straight to the point" than me. They don't win with people as much as I do, though. They don't convert them to their own way of thinking, which I find is more efficient in the long run than just saying, Do this or you can't play with us anymore. Diplomacy has its uses. Maybe that's where you see the Fe and IEI'ness. But you don't see me at work, and have never seen me when I get upset. This forum is basically relaxation and information gathering for me, it is not competition. I save competition for work, and even then, I prefer cooperation. Doesn't mean I don't plan ahead and marshal open, overwhelming attacks on a problem.
One mitigating factor might be my age, which is higher than I'd like. Also, I have a very high IQ, and IQ is an age multiplication factor of how much you know vs how much the average person of your age knows and ENTJ's tend to develop as they age. I didn't really become an ENTJ, as they are conventionally thought of, until I was about 25. I was pretty terse then. Before that, I was just gathering information and contacts.
Consider this when you are typing me. There are almost no LIE's with a Te tendency on this or any other forum. Most LIE's don't even believe they have an inner psychology, so your sample size and experience are going to be very low. I may be setting the curve.

Dude you are 'vortex' thinking for people into that

Zero Te, Fe stuff

How many accounts do you have btw you pop up everywhere

[Adam Strange]

Dude you are 'vortex' thinking for people into that

Zero Te, Fe stuff

How many accounts do you have btw you pop up everywhere

I'll have to look into vortex thinking, when I have more time, maybe in a few days I'm not familiar with it.
I only have one account here. Why would I want more?

[Enoch]

A very interesting progression for EJArendee, who shows signs of clear mental illness;

Perhaps when stressed or drunk or medicated we oscillate into more subconscious processes. Acting like your dual in a human outcry-

That which is just beneath the surface;

I often wonder the effect of psychiatric drugs like the one EJArendee takes on personality, is he schizoaffective?

[FDG]

when someone says a person is likely to act like their dual it's usually a sign they have a borked up understanding of socionics and suck at typing. duals are opposites in terms of most observable behavioral traits and have similarities on a deeper, unobservable level only.

Voted the most sane forever and ever

[mu4]

Voted the most sane forever and ever

I think "acting" can easily be mimicry, but cognition is a whole different matter. Group behavior is very mimicry oriented.

I think duals who are in sync do mimicry each other extensively if observed together.

However nobody should confuse Tracy Morgan and Tina Fey for identicals.

[Skepsis]

I'm sure others will disagree, but I don't see any reason why people can't act like any other type, at least for a short time. I don't think that personality is fixed at birth, but develops, evolves, and adapts throughout life. A person my act similar to their dual if they had actually developed their dual seeking function, which is entirely possible.

[Amber]

some people prolly disagree, but I think one should kinda have Ne (or mby also Ni) with _F_ to (wanna) act like other types, dunno.

[Skepsis]

Why would that be the case? I haven't read any data that supports the idea that only NFs can behave or want to behave like other types. There doesn't seem to be any good argument either as to why an NF can behave like an NT, but an NT can't behave like an NF. There may be some correlation, but I cannot see it as being absolute. None of the type descriptions or information elements by socionics experts that I've read online mention anything about one type being more prone to this than another. Not that matters in itself, but I'm curious as to how much speculation about type is coming into play. Perhaps it would be the underlying motivations or information elements that would determine how this would done. I don't know.

At times, I think there is something very troubling and intellectually dishonest about MBTI and Socionics in that it doesn't address the endpoint of development, or how self-actualized personality types look. While it is true that a person that fits the stereotype of one of the personality types is most likely that type, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to assign a type to those who have experienced self-realization or self-actualization, because that person will no longer behave in stereotypical ways. You cannot help it once you've become aware.

I have come to think that while we may start out close to one type, and I do say "close to" because I think cognitive functions are approximations, the degree in which we each deviate from that type varies from person to person and is part of individualization and self-development. In a sense, each individual is only loosely affiliated with the stereo-personality type by the end of self-actualization.

Ultimately though, this is speculation.

[Myst]

Actually, the last line in the post was directed at Amber. I'm growing to like and respect her abilities to type people more and more as I read more of her posts. But, if she is an ESI (and that's not for me to decide), I know from personal experience that ESI's are not comfortable with open, direct, public praise. So, I deliberately left the sentence open to interpretation. I figure that if she wants praise, it's there, and if she doesn't, she can safely ignore it.

Gotcha

Furthermore, Amber might be right. I probably don't understand what Benefit relationships are about. I do know that I immediately liked two people who are my Benefactors and look to them for advice, and that they like me less but still like me, and I sense that three people who are my Beneficiaries feel the same way about me. They kind of look to me for moral support. It's strange, but true. I'm happy to provide moral support, but I don't know if it does them any good. But just because I identify what seems to be similar information exchange between Benefactors and Beneficiaries, that doesn't mean I understand the reasons we have those feelings.

Hey I think no one knows what Benefit relations are about. It's one of the shadier parts of the theory.

As for liking EJ, one of my best friends from college is an SLE. When he didn't have a dual girlfriend, he was a self-destructive, dangerously crazy guy who had the uncanny ability to piss off everyone he met. We did things together that used up two of my nine lives. But when he finally found someone who loved him, he finished his PhD in mathematical Group Theory and got tenure. He is still a bit crazy and aggressive, but he mostly settled down and became productive. So, EJ is salvageable. Most people are, if they're not actually evil.

Lol man if only the quality of being evil or not evil was the only determining factor in that. Not really...

I don't know him irl. I just wrote some lines to him, telling him I thought he was basically fine, even though his life is falling apart around him because of lack of Ni, and he just needs an IEI to help straighten him out. Which I think is true.

How the fuck is someone "basically fine" when they are having outright hallucinations? I'm sorry, you are too brainwashed by socionics theory, stretching it way beyond its intended limits to explain things while completely disregarding all other areas of psychology and ignoring even the tiniest traces of common sense.

EJ is a very smart and perceptive guy. You may not like his style, but I can see the good guy under the crazed demeanor and have tremendous respect for his analytical abilities. I personally think that the smarter a person is, the more sensitive they are to seeing their life unravel for reasons beyond their control. I mean, what IEI hasn't thought about that? IEI's and SLE's share common functions. My own IQ puts me in the top 0.1%, and even though I was blessed with being an LIE, I still have had many moments when I thought my little airplane was headed straight for the treetops, and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
Sometimes, you just need someone to lend you a hand. If you don't have that person, you might be forced to try to use your weaker functions directly, and that is like letting a five-year old take the wheel when your normal driving skills aren't getting the job done.

Sure it's not great to try and use your rather weak superid directly but see above, DjA/EJ has a different issue, not simply trying to use superid. Also I have no idea how you got to the point of buying his crap so much that now you think he's got exceptionally good analytical abilities? He has some abilities in that area sure but "exceptional" is another category.

I'll have to look into vortex thinking, when I have more time, maybe in a few days I'm not familiar with it.

Vortex-Synergetic/V-S thinking style as per Gulenko cognitive styles, the article on that is on this site and on wikisocion as well.

Why would that be the case? I haven't read any data that supports the idea that only NFs can behave or want to behave like other types. There doesn't seem to be any good argument either as to why an NF can behave like an NT, but an NT can't behave like an NF. There may be some correlation, but I cannot see it as being absolute. None of the type descriptions or information elements by socionics experts that I've read online mention anything about one type being more prone to this than another. Not that matters in itself, but I'm curious as to how much speculation about type is coming into play. Perhaps it would be the underlying motivations or information elements that would determine how this would done. I don't know.

At times, I think there is something very troubling and intellectually dishonest about MBTI and Socionics in that it doesn't address the endpoint of development, or how self-actualized personality types look. While it is true that a person that fits the stereotype of one of the personality types is most likely that type, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to assign a type to those who have experienced self-realization or self-actualization, because that person will no longer behave in stereotypical ways. You cannot help it once you've become aware.

I have come to think that while we may start out close to one type, and I do say "close to" because I think cognitive functions are approximations, the degree in which we each deviate from that type varies from person to person and is part of individualization and self-development. In a sense, each individual is only loosely affiliated with the stereo-personality type by the end of self-actualization.

Ultimately though, this is speculation.

Forget the stereotypes, then you won't have to speculate about any of this. The theory is not about stereotypes at all.

[Skepsis]

Forget the stereotypes, then you won't have to speculate about any of this. The theory is not about stereotypes at all.

I know that the theory is not, but the typing process largely depends on stereotypes. It shouldn't in theory, but it is apparent when one is looking for how one type is likely or unlikely to behave. What you're left with the latter is person A cannot be type x because it is unlikely that type x would behave like person A. But unlikely does not mean not possible. The question is where to draw the line between not likely and not possible and this is difficult because it is difficult to empirically measure.

[Beautiful sky]

We sound like each other not sct

[Myst]

I know that the theory is not, but the typing process largely depends on stereotypes. It shouldn't in theory, but it is apparent when one is looking for how one type is likely or unlikely to behave. What you're left with the latter is person A cannot be type x because it is unlikely that type x would behave like person A. But unlikely does not mean not possible. The question is where to draw the line between not likely and not possible and this is difficult because it is difficult to empirically measure.

No, the typing process does not depend on stereotypes either. If you depend on them, you are doing it wrong.

[Amber]

I know that the theory is not, but the typing process largely depends on stereotypes. It shouldn't in theory, but it is apparent when one is looking for how one type is likely or unlikely to behave. What you're left with the latter is person A cannot be type x because it is unlikely that type x would behave like person A. But unlikely does not mean not possible. The question is where to draw the line between not likely and not possible and this is difficult because it is difficult to empirically measure.

The InformationElements used in this passage are Ni, Ne, Fe, and Te.

[Skepsis]

No, the typing process does not depend on stereotypes either. If you depend on them, you are doing it wrong.

I didn't say that is how I type. In fact, I prefer not to type unless there is plenty of information in support of a conclusive type. My point is that people can behave in non-stereotypical ways and still be the type they claim to be. Type pretending is no different than role playing or acting, which any type can do. It just isn't a viable long term strategy. That is all.

[Myst]

I didn't say that is how I type. In fact, I prefer not to type unless there is plenty of information in support of a conclusive type. My point is that people can behave in non-stereotypical ways and still be the type they claim to be. Type pretending is no different than role playing or acting, which any type can do. It just isn't a viable long term strategy. That is all.

That point -bolded- is trivial.

What did you mean by type pretending?

PS: I forgot to originally comment about how I do agree that you should be able to transcend the type caricatures...

[Amber]

That point -bolded- is trivial.

What did you mean by type pretending?

PS: I forgot to originally comment about how I do agree that you should be able to transcend the type caricatures...

Ne egos (especially NF >> traditionally called "identity-seeking temperament" for a few good reasons) have an uncanny, but also relatively amusing ability to absorb other (people's) personalities somehow. I saw it in Ne users irl >> they can get stuff close to "the essence" of a person (* Internal Statics of Objects), their mannerisms, their thought patterns etc. and build up novel sides of their own personality by simply internalizing that.

Now irl I saw this play out as a good method of reading people in order to understand them or --- in some cases --- as a form of chameleonism ... kinda the Ne ego trying to get under someone's skin by insinuating some form of profound affinity. NFs are better at it ofc, ILE can be pretty effective only on the spot ...by reproducing someone's uttermost beliefs in a conversation in a fairly subtle way ..I gather it works with some people.

Online I saw the same tendency manifest itself as a desire to change type pretty often ... coupled with an ability to actually adopt the basics of a type >> talking style, mentality, possible worldview, a few experiences carefully selected to suit the new type etc.
It can be fun as an act of self-searching through others ... if you look at it with a philosophical bent. Kinda there's no fixed self, but you can stretch and move as you like by integrating some more sides into your personality. I think it depends on someone's motivations for engaging in such a game. If it's mainly an act of self-discovery or smth. done to escape boredom with a one-and-only stable self ... you can smile when you see it.

[Skepsis]

That point -bolded- is trivial.

What did you mean by type pretending?

PS: I forgot to originally comment about how I do agree that you should be able to transcend the type caricatures...

What I mean by type pretending is acting like your dual, or some other type. But, I don't consider this as pretending so much as it is the process of self-actualization, which is the endpoint of typology for all types. Once you are aware of your core you can look beyond it to continue to develop. This could result in changes in perspectives and even behavior. *Self-actualization should not be confused with any particular function or type as any type can self-actualize. If you become good at functions that were once a weakness, you have reached a different stage in development.

[Myst]

What I mean by type pretending is acting like your dual, or some other type. But, I don't consider this as pretending so much as it is the process of self-actualization, which is the endpoint of typology for all types. Once you are aware of your core you can look beyond it to continue to develop. This could result in changes in perspectives and even behavior. *Self-actualization should not be confused with any particular function or type as any type can self-actualize. If you become good at functions that were once a weakness, you have reached a different stage in development.

Okay, well, all this seems quite hypothetical and rather meaningless generalities.

To get more specific, I honestly don't think you can make your weaknesses your strengths but sure, some development of them throughout life is quite normal, I'm sure. Why the attempt to force more than this normal process based on some vague notions and without even having a clear method for doing so.

If you do have such a method, feel free to share.

[Skepsis]

Okay, well, all this seems quite hypothetical and rather meaningless generalities.

To get more specific, I honestly don't think you can make your weaknesses your strengths but sure, some development of them throughout life is quite normal, I'm sure. Why the attempt to force more than this normal process based on some vague notions and without even having a clear method for doing so.

If you do have such a method, feel free to share.

I don't recommend forcing it, just recognize that it is something that does occur during development. Often it is forced upon you in environments that you may not be able to avoid being in or control. For instance, an Fe or Fi polr working in a job that requires good interpersonal relationship skills and pleasing customers regardless of the circumstances. To keep the job, you have to at least meet a minimum level of interpersonal skill, and that will require the use of ethical functions.

[Aylen]

Is this a case of acting like your dual?

[Myst]

I don't recommend forcing it, just recognize that it is something that does occur during development. Often it is forced upon you in environments that you may not be able to avoid being in or control. For instance, an Fe or Fi polr working in a job that requires good interpersonal relationship skills and pleasing customers regardless of the circumstances. To keep the job, you have to at least meet a minimum level of interpersonal skill, and that will require the use of ethical functions.

Development is a rather complex topic, sure, it happens, and outside socionics context too. As for the socionics example here, sure you may learn the skill inside the specific situation but other new types of situations will still need you to learn adapting to them again.

[Beautiful sky]

First off, you don't even understand what the Benefit relation is about - the Benefactor is supposed to find the Beneficiary a dull, helpless, and uninteresting person due to the lack of "suggestive" in them (which the B_actor allegedly craves). It's an unequal relationship in theory ... with the Benefactor in a superior position while the B_ary finds them awesome due to their creative. That isn't happening. You're posting and promoting links of dude ...so it's kinda the other way round. You'd have an excuse if you had any clue other than socionics on why you like the person anyway.

Secondly, if you compare me to this moron, your senses and your methods of assessing ppl totally suck. You should post on the ENTJ perCaf forum .. it wouldn't be visible there.

He said he likes you. Did you miss that part as you got into an analysis of the benefit relations? Benefit relations are a warm relationship because at first the pair finds each other comforting but later discovers that one is constantly getting criticized for not meeting the other's expectations. Socionics.com

[Amber]

I don't recommend forcing it, just recognize that it is something that does occur during development. Often it is forced upon you in environments that you may not be able to avoid being in or control. For instance, an Fe or Fi polr working in a job that requires good interpersonal relationship skills and pleasing customers regardless of the circumstances. To keep the job, you have to at least meet a minimum level of interpersonal skill, and that will require the use of ethical functions.

I agree, I know Delta NFs with stronger Te thanks to lots of research work. Science forces one to develop muscle. Not sure if being a lab nerd and analysing urine, sperm or blood qualifies. Your Si may be average tho if you lounge around enough.

What I mean by type pretending is acting like your dual, or some other type. But, I don't consider this as pretending so much as it is the process of self-actualization, which is the endpoint of typology for all types. Once you are aware of your core you can look beyond it to continue to develop. This could result in changes in perspectives and even behavior. *Self-actualization should not be confused with any particular function or type as any type can self-actualize. If you become good at functions that were once a weakness, you have reached a different stage in development.

You are exactly the same as half a year ago or so -- functionally speaking and not only (add outlook and behavior). So I wouldn't place so much hope in automatic self-actualization if I were you. You've got more chances of success if you simply try acting like another type, as usual.

[The Reality Denialist]

Dual seeking function is weak. There is no way around it. It can look comical when you try to supply it.
INFj who starts to think what is the most energy efficient way to use an VCR, ISFp who thinks about historical implications between kitchen equipment and motors. Both of them are reasonable and nice thought experiments but there is not much more depth in long run.

Sometimes I get overly worried when someone hurts him/herself lightly or when I accidentally spill over my mug contents. I am also sometimes overly sensitive about my health (not in HA way).