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Thread: Had A Ne Clash Yesterday

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    Default Had A Ne Clash Yesterday

    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.

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    You could always sell out to the Ne-man.

    But seriously, I have no way how to help you here. I'm too biased with my love for Ne. I would probably act more or less exactly like your friends did, and I tend to agree wholeheartedly with the forumers you mentioned. Sorry that this post is useless.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    You could always sell out to the Ne-man.

    But seriously, I have no way how to help you here. I'm too biased with my love for Ne. I would probably act more or less exactly like your friends did, and I tend to agree wholeheartedly with the forumers you mentioned. Sorry that this post is useless.
    Hahahaha. It's okay.

    *grinning* You're another one to add to the hitlist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Hahahaha. It's okay.

    *grinning* You're another one to add to the hitlist.
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    Why can't you stick with it? I think you should. If it is what you belive, then stick with it! Who cares what quadra they are in, or what functions they seek. Stick to your guns man!

    Edit: But still be nice about it etc.. dont be a jerk.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    Why can't you stick with it? I think you should. If it is what you belive, then stick with it! Who cares what quadra they are in, or what functions they seek. Stick to your guns man!
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.
    You need to accept that people will think differently from you and they have the right to determine their lives as they see fit. Whilst you might think that your way is correct, you have no right to impose it upon them. You can make a good case for you opinions and position, but ultimately, accept that they have personal responsibility for their way of life.

    I guess you have to appreciate the subjectivity of your own experience and philosophy.

    I don't know, I mean, I think that's the mature way. You could also just shrug and say 'Well, too stupid to appreciate my wisdom.'

    I mean, what do you want to happen? To make them see the wrongness of their way and the rightness of yours? It's incredibly frustrating in life when you KNOW you're right and yet you also KNOW other people aren't wrong. There really isn't a way to resolve that but to accept the multiplicity of experience.

    That's probably not very helpful, but it's just advice true to my experience. I used to get upset at the same thing. I KNEW they were wrong and yet I could see their way working for them. It made me SO frustrated. I got over it by reminding myself that I wasn't oracle of rightness and humility in recognising my personal fallibility and the merit of other people's values is a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.
    Oh, no. This is bad. Why do they have so much power over you? You should know to be confident in your own ideas and own view of things. Who cares what they say! Seriously, if you believe in it, stick to your guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    It's just an inherent clash of functions, man. There's not much you can do about it. I don't really get along with cracka either. The ESFj way of life is foreign to me.

    If you realize you can't change them, and they can't change you - wouldn't it be best to just ignore each other? (haha I realize that's bad advice your grandma gives you but I don't know what else to say)

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    You need to accept that people will think differently from you and they have the right to determine their lives as they see fit. Whilst you might think that your way is correct, you have no right to impose it upon them. You can make a good case for you opinions and position, but ultimately, accept that they have personal responsibility for their way of life.

    I guess you have to appreciate the subjectivity of your own experience and philosophy.

    I don't know, I mean, I think that's the mature way. You could also just shrug and say 'Well, too stupid to appreciate my wisdom.'

    I mean, what do you want to happen? To make them see the wrongness of their way and the rightness of yours? It's incredibly frustrating in life when you KNOW you're right and yet you also KNOW other people aren't wrong. There really isn't a way to resolve that but to accept the multiplicity of experience.

    That's probably not very helpful, but it's just advice true to my experience. I used to get upset at the same thing. I KNEW they were wrong and yet I could see their way working for them. It made me SO frustrated. I got over it by reminding myself that I wasn't oracle of rightness and humility in recognising my personal fallibility and the merit of other people's values is a good thing.

    +10.

    i'll add my 2 cents also. there are situations where Ne is more valuable than Se and vice versa.

    if i'm in a big fucking crisis and i need somebody to get other people moving in a direction, then i'm going to turn to an Se. if things are totally chaotic and impossible to try to figure out, i'm going to turn to an Se. they won't wonder about possibilities. they'll draw a straight line from problem to solution.

    if things are completely frustratingly stalled and entropic, i'm looking for Ne to shake it up. when tools plans missions and the like aren't working or when there's a lack of meaning or purpose in something i'm going to turn to Ne.

    it's about using people (in a good way) for what they are good at and at the right time and in the right situation, not really right or wrong. i'm not sure what your situation is since you don't really give details, but it sounds like the situation was not right for Se. so drop it then and go with the Ne flow...it won't hurt ya as long as you don't try to be good at it. besides you might learn something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.

    You have to remember that reality exists regardless of whether a person is Ne or Se. There is a right answer, and that is what you should be defending, not yourself or somebody else.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.
    The greater evil is being dishonest to yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.
    Se/Ni valuing does not = blind, absolute certainty in your own convictions. Any type can be an insular dick; stop rationalizing it through functions.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so".
    There's a reason why you can't believe what you're saying the whole time: because it is an incomplete - and probably premature - subjective viewpoint. Do you honestly ever expect to win an argument where you try to impose a personal belief on someone?

    I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.
    No. The reason you want everyone to be like you is because you are actually quite uncertain of whether you are right or not. You project your own insecurities about your opinions externally to get some form of validation. A person can know they're right without feeling the need to prove it to others; doing the latter only looks compensatory and stupid (hence your "having a life" thread). I know this because I've done the same thing in the past with my family. Typically when someone goes on the offensive without being provoked, they are simply trying to reassure themselves, solidify their position in reality. It shows that they are trying to figure things out and do want to learn, but are too caught up in cocky, hormonal bullshit to go about it in a healthy way.


    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.
    Simple answer: grow up and get over yourself. Stop feeding off of this cycle of self-promoting dogma and realize that you can be secure in reality without controlling others.
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    well, this has been my exact "problem" my whole life. how i handle and have learned to deal with it is to do daily work to keep my mind open to others way of being. daily, or i become a complete ass again.

    i liken it to working out. i workout everyday. if i didn't, my body and spirit gets weak and i don't like that. so, i use my will to do some mental/emotional/spiritual work everyday to keep my mind open to others' way and others' way of seeing things, even when i don't agree.

    there is a great dichotomy there. being strong in my beliefs/views while also staying open to the fact that others see and do things differently than me and since we're "all in this thing together," i might as well figure out a way to be okay with others while still staying true and strong to my own things.

    this takes work, every day.

    for me, this is why i had such a hard time picking and seeing what type i am. i may "value" certain things, but i see the worthiness in all things, whether i agree with them or not. then, i can still be right. and so can others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The greater evil is being dishonest to yourself.
    I disagree. Reread what he wrote, and toss your assumptions to the side this time. Put the empathy to the side, too. Think objectively....

    We're not just talking about any Ne here, are we? We're talking about a specific kind of Ne, right? Elucidate this for us please, Ezra.

    I can think of four forms of Ne right off:
    - options
    - potential
    - innate characteristics (like genes, DNA)
    - imagined scenarios

    I think you're seeing this as a black and white problem, Ezra. There is such a thing is drawing a proverbial line in the sand aforetime; making people aware it exists; and then warning them not to cross it. That's how I handle all such matters, and I can tell you from tested experience that it is much more effective on a day to day basis than taking positions that are all-or-nothing, either in terms of becoming a doormat or a stormtrooper, if you catch my drift. If you cannot reconcile my advice with your behavioral preferences, then at least be mindful that that is how I operate, and how in my experience many others operate too. (and if you pay attention you'll notice they tend to be in charge in democratic institutions at least). If you take an extreme position you should expect an extreme response, so aim for the middle.

    If I were to recommend an example of a guy doing his best with impossible circumstances, it would be Beethoven. As a rule though, drawing lines in the sand is about the best way you can deal with people of different views. It signals to your opponent exactly what you're afraid of, and gives them an opportunity to revise their approach into something that doesn't antagonize you. Most people prefer to avoid conflict with other individuals, because it leaves them vulnerable.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    You have to remember that reality exists regardless of whether a person is Ne or Se. There is a right answer, and that is what you should be defending, not yourself or somebody else.
    No. Perceptions of reality exist. Just because I believe excessive materialism is wrong doesn't mean it is. I can't prove it is, even if they can't prove it isn't. So all we have to rely on is opinion, and only a fool believes their opinion, without proof, is definitively true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    only a fool believes their opinion, without proof, is definitively true.
    This is precisely how you have acted recently.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Yeah, I tend to have confidence in my opinion, but I don't necessarily believe it's right. There's a different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yeah, I tend to have confidence in my opinion, but I don't necessarily believe it's right. There's a different.
    If so, why do you then push your opinion on your brother if even you are not certain you are correct. Surely he will pick up on that hypocrisy immediately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Yeah, I tend to have confidence in my opinion, but I don't necessarily believe it's right. There's a different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right.
    You're slipping lately, Ezra.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yeah, I tend to have confidence in my opinion, but I don't necessarily believe it's right. There's a different.
    You shouldn't push that which you don't believe is right. That said, neither should those who believe they are right push themselves on those who disbelieve in the rightness of the cause, unless they are also 1) confident in the opinion and 2) confident that the other person has the same opinion.

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    Do we not all, as human beings, have an instinctive drive to do something contrary to what is rational?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Do we not all, as human beings, have an instinctive drive to do something contrary to what is rational?
    each in our own way...and with our own definition of what is rational...(not the universal one, but the one that we each hold in our consciousness)

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    Why don't you stop kidding yourself and admit that the tough-guy, ESTp fan-club image is just a cover-up for how much you wish you were an Ne-ego. It's ok, you know. We know how awesome we are

    No, but in all seriousness, I think it's a matter of take a step back from yourself and recognizing your own strengths, as well as those of others. So when your Ne-ego friends make you feel like a dink for not considering certain things, take a step back from yourself and see how those things fit into your idea and then readjust. It doesn't mean you have to let go of your position entirely. Firmness of mind and the ability to sort between fact and fiction is a strength of Se-valuers. Sometimes the solidity of your own way of thinking can cloud your ability to see all the possibilities, but similarily as an Ne-valuer I have a hard time coming to a firm conclusion or decision. So when your Ne friends seem like they're ripping apart your opinions or ideas, instead you can look at those things and pick out what's good from what they're offering you.

    You say you want a steak, they offer you a platter of a variety of choice meats instead. You can still pick which is the best one. Sometimes you'll stick with the steak and say that your first choice was the right choice, other times you'll change your mind and realize that you hadn't thought about the possibility of lobster. You're still making good use of your strengths, while recognizing the contribution of your friends as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof. It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?). And quite frankly, you're not going to like everybody or what they do. In the end, you cannot make anyone do something he/she doesn't want to do; that's something I have had to come to grips with recently. I also think there's a lot to be said for when, where, and how one expresses his opinion.

    Other than that, what type are you? Not sure whether you're SEE or SLE.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?).
    Umm... he is, usually, that type of person to deal with...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Do we not all, as human beings, have an instinctive drive to do something contrary to what is rational?
    You are on an escapade of self-contradictions and rationalizations.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Why don't you stop kidding yourself and admit that the tough-guy, ESTp fan-club image is just a cover-up for how much you wish you were an Ne-ego. It's ok, you know. We know how awesome we are

    No, but in all seriousness, I think it's a matter of take a step back from yourself and recognizing your own strengths, as well as those of others. So when your Ne-ego friends make you feel like a dink for not considering certain things, take a step back from yourself and see how those things fit into your idea and then readjust. It doesn't mean you have to let go of your position entirely. Firmness of mind and the ability to sort between fact and fiction is a strength of Se-valuers. Sometimes the solidity of your own way of thinking can cloud your ability to see all the possibilities, but similarily as an Ne-valuer I have a hard time coming to a firm conclusion or decision. So when your Ne friends seem like they're ripping apart your opinions or ideas, instead you can look at those things and pick out what's good from what they're offering you.

    You say you want a steak, they offer you a platter of a variety of choice meats instead. You can still pick which is the best one. Sometimes you'll stick with the steak and say that your first choice was the right choice, other times you'll change your mind and realize that you hadn't thought about the possibility of lobster. You're still making good use of your strengths, while recognizing the contribution of your friends as well.
    Thank God for

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof. It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?). And quite frankly, you're not going to like everybody or what they do. In the end, you cannot make anyone do something he/she doesn't want to do; that's something I have had to come to grips with recently. I also think there's a lot to be said for when, where, and how one expresses his opinion.

    Other than that, what type are you? Not sure whether you're SEE or SLE.
    If I was SEE, many things would need to be rethought out. There is some difference of opinion on my creative function, but I'm generally seen as Se ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You are on an escapade of self-contradictions and rationalizations.
    Yeah I can't really escape it. I just don't want to admit I'm wrong. Fine, I contradicted myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Thank God for
    You got it Pontiac, any time.
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    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof.
    i say "to me," all of the time. (if you go back over all of my posts, it's there. ) most people still don't hear it though and take what i'm saying as me being closed minded to anything other than what i'm saying. i wish people would realize i say "to me," for this reason!!!! i have a strong opinion but i am still open to others'.

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    I had an SLE business partner once. While I liked the guy, I found it difficult at times to hold a discussion with him because he was often unable to admit his mistakes.

    At the time I didn't know about socionics, so I simply called it being "overly proud". I now think that it has to do with the Fe HA: SLEs often try to hide their mistakes because they subconsciously believe that they are not worth being liked/loved if seen as faulty. I have seen the same in ILEs.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Is this something that still wants addressing? By someone like me?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Is this something that still wants addressing? By someone like me?
    go for it. i'd like to hear what you have to say.

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    No. The reason you want everyone to be like you is because you are actually quite uncertain of whether you are right or not. You project your own insecurities about your opinions externally to get some form of validation.
    NO! You could be wrong too, mr/ms? faux-psychologist. You're not in his brain, you don't know. So fuck off. I've been in many life situations where I was the only correct one, and the only way I could survive was to lie and pretend that I was just as stupid as they were. Otherwise it would be social suicide and I wouldn't have gotten through it. I'm sure many people can relate to this.

    He's doing no such thing, what you're claiming he's doing. At least, there is no evidence for it. He's not 'projecting his insecurities.' You're just projecting your stupidity. Leave Ezra alone.

    If anybody is projecting their insecurities, it's Phaedrus. But Ezra is a good guy. *shrug*

    Psychoanalyzing people on a message board = epic fail. No offense, but everybody please- stick to your day jobs.

  37. #37
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    go for it. i'd like to hear what you have to say.
    Aaaand, dbmmama takes over the thread. Again.

    Honestly, Minde, if you want to reply, you can do, because I've come to no conclusion about how to deal with this issue. In fact, if anything, I've settled into my old ways again; I'm making no effort to remove "should"s and "must"s from my vocabulary when discussing people's lives. I can't help but moralise.

    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    i strongly agree. arguments you would be LSI/ISTJ, analyzing your behavior on the forums:
    - you are interested of what everybody thinks, with the purpose of everyone's position in the hierarchy (Ti).
    Incorrect. I'm interested in what most people think. People from my quadra generally take priority, because what they say tends to be interesting. I rarely listen to Alphas, with a few exceptions. Gammas are a confused bunch (that is, there are a lot of mistyped "Gammas", so I'm a fence-sitter when it comes to giving a shit about their quadra). Deltas I tend to go on and off in interest about; sometimes what they say provides a new perspective worth learning about; sometimes they just discuss the most boring shit I've ever encountered).

    I've never actually questioned why I am interested in what everyone thinks. I'm not completely sure that it's about determining a forum hierarchy, although I wouldn't be surprised if "placing people" in my world would have something to do with it. I did read once that creative function is more consciously evident to us than base function, which tends to be so automatic that you often don't notice use of it.

    - you take the "pulse of the nation" to test the rapport of forces from time to time (Se) - the threads started by you
    Yes.

    - you sometimes want to appear more exquisite - i don't have an example for that right now (Se)
    Again, I don't understand what you mean.

    - i noticed you have a strong interest in the Enneagram, which i see as a totalitarian system aimed to enframe people in a narrow and easier controllable set - (Tx as a base function)
    I think this is a gross misconception of the Enneagram. Have you actually ever read any Enneagram literature before?

    - you put yourself in a position that gives you the ability of using scorn against inconvenient disagreements - of course if you talk to everybody you don't have the the time to answer every silly post (Se)
    Yes.

    remember Ne/Si valuating ppl are very individualistic.
    So am I.

    let me ask some questions about your little conflict there:
    - do you use expressions like "everybody knows ...", or "it is obvious that ..."? (they need verifiable observations to be convinced rather than established facts)
    Yes, nearly all the time. People often criticise me for it. When I say that something is "obvious", more often than not it is obvious only to myself and those who agree with me.

    - when arguing to both of them at the same time, does it happen sometimes that you ignore one's question (or answer) for a supposed obvious reason? (like continuing an earlier phrase with the other, or talking a supposed more important matter with someone else). this may render a person with Se on the super-ego block completely uncooperative, despite further provocations/challenges.
    I don't like to leave people's questions addressed to me unanswered. I find it rude and highly disrespectful.

    - do you sometimes discard someone's solution or advise justifying he/she's not in the position to tell but source X? sometimes this puts you in a very bad light (or completely discredited) in the group, like in the case the others in the group were made aware of truth earlier by consulting source X, which you declare trustworthy.
    I'm not sure whether I have prejudice towards or against certain sources. It's a possibility. The only source I know to be infallible is Augusta. I'm not talking about in an objective reality; I'm talking about within the context of socionics. Socionics is correct within socionics, because if it wasn't that would defy logic. This is why I'm so biased towards what she says, and why I am so against people questioning what she said about socionics, because her theory is socionics. It's like when people say "no, Augusta is wrong about Te"; what they are saying is "within socionics, Augusta's system, what Augusta says about her conception of the function Te, an interpretation which she came up with, is wrong". It's ridiculous.

    damn this post became too long.
    I've seen far longer. Don't worry about it.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Honestly, Minde, if you want to reply, you can do, because I've come to no conclusion about how to deal with this issue. In fact, if anything, I've settled into my old ways again; I'm making no effort to remove "should"s and "must"s from my vocabulary when discussing people's lives. I can't help but moralise.
    I have difficulty keeping from it myself, if you haven't noticed. I don't think it's a terrible thing to have ideas on what should and should not be.

    But... let me ponder the matter a little longer. There is a truth to be found, an answer. I do not see it clearly, yet, though I sense its presence. Even if I do not find it through thought, at least my musings might be a bit helpful to you, yes? Even if all it is is a different perspective and not a true answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I don't like to leave people's questions addressed to me unanswered. I find it rude and highly disrespectful.
    <3
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  40. #40
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    well you should listen to your supervisors.
    I do.

    "exquisite" - maybe i can't express because of my weak Se. "stylish" would make sense? style, elegance, deserve of attention, etc.
    If it comes down to an expression of ideas, I like to be seen as what I am; I make no qualms about claiming that I'm intelligent. Some people will say I'm not worth listening to. Well, I say they're not worth bothering with.

    When it comes down to style in terms of fashion sense, I really couldn't give a shit. As long as I smell clean and look presentable, I'm content. Physically, I certainly am worth little to no attention. But if my ideas aren't listened to by anyone, I'm unhappy. I do indeed need an audience to express myself.

    i was talking about trustworthy sources in general discussions, i believe you don't talk to your brother & co about Socionics only. (as a matter of fact i hardly talk something else with my family and some friends other than that how they can improve their lives and relationships)
    The only time I've talked extensively about socionics outside of this forum (or an instant messenger) is when I meet Expat and Isha.

    do you know their types?
    Whose types?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Even if I do not find it through thought, at least my musings might be a bit helpful to you, yes? Even if all it is is a different perspective and not a true answer.
    I've rarely encountered something which is entirely useless in life.

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