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Thread: Remorse; moral question

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    Post Remorse; moral question

    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    You can't live with regret, but you can endevor to do it right next time and to actually apply the lessons you've learned. But you've gotta go all out or you're not being true to yourself -- spare nothing in the pursuit of integrity.

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    Somtimes there is grounds for justification of what you do. In those cases you analyze the situation and come to a solid conclusion that what you were doing was really for the best. Sometimes apologies are necessary. You can apologize to the offended individual(s). Even if they don't accept your apology or don't see it your way you have done all you can do. The most important thing is to realize that sometimes you must learn to forgive yourself and move on. If you can't do learn to do that than it is difficult to really move on in life.
    Last edited by Bardia; 09-06-2008 at 11:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?
    The subject is wrongly stated from the beginning. "Mistakes" do no exist.

    If you really want to know, mistakes are simply "changes in direction". It's the main difference between intelligent beings like humans and the rest of the universe: that everything else follows a linear logic and ends up in an infinite loop.

    Mistakes serve the fundamental purpose of getting ourselves out of those infinite loops (you can also call them a state of "apathy").

    As long as the whole mind changes direction, there is no inner conflict. However, if for some reason only one part of the mind changes direction while the other remains intact, an increasing conflict between both will arise. That's what we call remorse.

    I personally deal with remorse exactly like I deal about a nutrition diet: by understanding that extremes are wrong. It is preferable to eat a bit of what we like (with moderation), even if it's not so healthy, than to leave the want build up until you can't stand it anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?

    Often, I first rationalize and try to get rid of the cognitive dissonance, but the guilt never goes away. Then, I meditate to fully experience the feelings of guilt, live through them, feel ashamed, admit to myself I was wrong, and when I do that, the feelings go away to never return.

    EDIT TO ADD: one of the important things to overcome such feelings, is to live them through without blaming yourself. Self-acceptance is important in these cases, you have to fully own your feelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The subject is wrongly stated from the beginning. "Mistakes" do no exist.

    If you really want to know, mistakes are simply "changes in direction".
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    You have to live with it. Essentially, the best policy is to ignore them, while recognising that they will pop up in your life, and they will make you feel uncomfortable, but it will only be temporary. Another approach is to accept that what has happened has made you a wiser person. This may even be a better method than the one I just outlined. I don't know. Try for yourself.

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    i actually just had a conversation with my istp friend in which she explained how she regrets "mistakes" that she's made in relationships. it was a long conversation, but basically I was telling her that I don't really think there are "relationship mistakes." She seemed to think that when she showed certain aspects of herself or said things to people it was "bad."
    I can elaborate more on this if it's in line with what you were referring to, but I'm not sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?
    You can never regret an action, only its consequences. Like Mikemex said, it is about changes in direction. You assess things in hindsight, and observe the effects certain actions carried with them, and thus try to orient yourself better for the next time. But you should never live with regret, because each action is a building block that colors one's experience. To look back and pick and choose what you "should" have done is silly. Things happen, you just have to keep moving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The subject is wrongly stated from the beginning. "Mistakes" do no exist.
    Well excuse me, but I stated what I thought and what I was curios about, not what YOU think I should have stated. The rest of your post I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    i actually just had a conversation with my istp friend in which she explained how she regrets "mistakes" that she's made in relationships. it was a long conversation, but basically I was telling her that I don't really think there are "relationship mistakes." She seemed to think that when she showed certain aspects of herself or said things to people it was "bad."
    I can elaborate more on this if it's in line with what you were referring to, but I'm not sure.
    Well I was addressing it as a global issue since that's how I see it exists and happens, (not bounded to any particular experiences), but yeah, the subject you started is pretty much in line with what I have in mind so it would be nice to hear your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    To look back and pick and choose what you "should" have done is silly.
    But isn't that a part of the "learning from experiences" approach. How will I learn if I don't look back and evaluate my past actions?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The subject is wrongly stated from the beginning. "Mistakes" do no exist.

    If you really want to know, mistakes are simply "changes in direction". It's the main difference between intelligent beings like humans and the rest of the universe: that everything else follows a linear logic and ends up in an infinite loop.

    Mistakes serve the fundamental purpose of getting ourselves out of those infinite loops (you can also call them a state of "apathy").

    As long as the whole mind changes direction, there is no inner conflict. However, if for some reason only one part of the mind changes direction while the other remains intact, an increasing conflict between both will arise. That's what we call remorse.

    I personally deal with remorse exactly like I deal about a nutrition diet: by understanding that extremes are wrong. It is preferable to eat a bit of what we like (with moderation), even if it's not so healthy, than to leave the want build up until you can't stand it anymore.
    this is what i strive for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    But isn't that a part of the "learning from experiences" approach. How will I learn if I don't look back and evaluate my past actions?
    you do both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    you do both.
    Thanks, seexy. I guess it's not a silly thing to do afterall, eh?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Thanks, seexy. I guess it's not a silly thing to do afterall, eh?
    to me, that's called "growing up" and becoming a "mensch." we all have that potenial, it just takes a different road for each of us.

    here's a nice little thing about mensch:

    http://www.jewishealing.com/theartofthemensch.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    But isn't that a part of the "learning from experiences" approach. How will I learn if I don't look back and evaluate my past actions?
    You only evaluate past actions in order to benefit your future. If the past actions have a dissonance, you find the problems, so that the future actions can be more in accordance with what is "good", what works best, etc. (and vice-versa) To look back at a past action in itself and say "I wish I hadn't done this" is pointless; it's like creating a void in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    To look back at a past action in itself and say "I wish I hadn't done this" is pointless; it's like creating a void in time.
    ooooo, i like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?

    blame someone else

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    blame someone else
    clever.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    clever.
    To be honest, it's more like "Fuck it, can't change the past".

    Alternatively sometimes I beat myself up. And want to punch something.

    Ideally, I channel the anger/regret into something productive so that it doesn't bug me so much.

    I've found that being honest about my mistakes seems to make them hurt less.

    I find that sometimes when I've been active a long time there's this kind of "down time", where things come spinning back to me, and it's like I get these micro-jolts.

    For what it's worth, I've been told in the past that I don't show remorse. No-one has ever really taught me how to show remorse. THey don't really teach you, they just expect you to know. It's kind of like being expected to write with your left hand, when you're right handed. Some people practice, but you're never going to be good at it, unless you're really devoted to it. But when you can right with your right hand most people, don't really try to learn. So I kind of just try to avoid situations where people might try and expect me to show remorse.

    The usual reason, that people have given for wanting me to show remorse, is when I've hurt other people, who have gotten in the way. And I've justified that if people didn't get in the way, they wouldn't get hurt. But some people make themselves a problem, and then wonder why they get hurt. And think it's downright rude, when someone turns themself into a problem, and is difficult towards you for you showing remorse for hurting them.

    If they didn't want to get hurt, they'd stay out of the way. And if you hold a grudge, you hold a grudge. It doesn't go away until the score is settled.

    And only a liar, and a cheat, would show "remorse", when they feel "kill".
    Last edited by Satan; 09-07-2008 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Well excuse me, but I stated what I thought and what I was curios about, not what YOU think I should have stated. The rest of your post I understand.
    The quality of an answer depends on the quality of a question. If a question is wrongly stated, then the answer is to be flawed. It's like asking how many fingers a dragon has; thing is, there are no dragons in the first place.

    Whenever a person like you demands a direct answer to a question, chances are that they are not really interested in gaining understanding, but more after an emotional need. In your case it seems like your goal is simply to shake the negative feelings. If you were really interested in understanding, you should be interested in the idea that perhaps you're looking at the problem from the wrong perspective and that any related answer is to be flawed.
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    I don't believe in mistakes nor do I hardly ever feel guilty for anything. Whatever that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica
    I don't believe in mistakes nor do I hardly ever feel guilty for anything. Whatever that means.
    I agree with you in a very specific manner, but due to your vague wording, I'm betting you'll receive the Fi treatment from the usual gang on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    The usual reason, that people have given for wanting me to show remorse, is when I've hurt other people, who have gotten in the way. And I've justified that if people didn't get in the way, they wouldn't get hurt. But some people make themselves a problem, and then wonder why they get hurt. And think it's downright rude, when someone turns themself into a problem, and is difficult towards you for you showing remorse for hurting them.

    If they didn't want to get hurt, they'd stay out of the way. And if you hold a grudge, you hold a grudge. It doesn't go away until the score is settled.
    From a purely clinical pov, this is pretty much the textbook definition of sociopathic (leaning toward psychopathic) behavior.

    And only a liar, and a cheat, would show "remorse", when they feel "kill".
    ...and here the sociopathic justification for said behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    What do you do when you've done something which at the time you thought was right just to later realize you shouldn't have done it and you wish you haven't? How do you deal with your feelings of regret and remorse? Or do you justify all your deeds with the fact that you did what you thought was right, and therefore not regret anything you do?
    I have always had a difficult time with "regret", as I tend to blame myself first and foremost, having a defective sense of self-worth.

    My "feelings" of regret ultimately become a kind of mental torture. Even if I may truly believe I followed my heart, I wind up focusing on the end result. That is, if the other person rejects me, disagrees or has a negative reaction to something about me, somehow I'm always wrong. I have trouble separating true remorse (when I am directly responsible for doing or saying something inconsistent with my moral code) from self-blame (when someone else has a negative reaction to me, when I've done nothing to directly warrant responsibility for their reaction).

    Somehow, "rejection" and "wrong" are often conflated in my self-concept, leading to regret and self-recrimination for being myself.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The subject is wrongly stated from the beginning. "Mistakes" do no exist.

    If you really want to know, mistakes are simply "changes in direction". It's the main difference between intelligent beings like humans and the rest of the universe: that everything else follows a linear logic and ends up in an infinite loop.

    Mistakes serve the fundamental purpose of getting ourselves out of those infinite loops (you can also call them a state of "apathy").

    As long as the whole mind changes direction, there is no inner conflict. However, if for some reason only one part of the mind changes direction while the other remains intact, an increasing conflict between both will arise. That's what we call remorse.

    I personally deal with remorse exactly like I deal about a nutrition diet: by understanding that extremes are wrong. It is preferable to eat a bit of what we like (with moderation), even if it's not so healthy, than to leave the want build up until you can't stand it anymore.
    This sounds like an afterconstruct to me. If, like Winterpark said, we unintentionally hurt somebody with our actions we will still have hurt that person no matter how much we tell ourselves our action was necessary/part of a paradigm shift in life or whatever. To justify it as 'I had to do it' afterwards, when the consequences become clear, may not be entirely truthful. If we knew the result of our actions we may have chosen another way to act. But this is the human dilemma, we do not always know and we do hurt other people without meaning to.

    Sometimes we end up so stuck that no matter what we do to break free we end up hurting someone. From the last point of view I can understand your reasoning better.

    I agree with your last paragraph though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    The quality of an answer depends on the quality of a question. If a question is wrongly stated, then the answer is to be flawed.
    And when is a question "wrongly stated"? When you think it is? I must be an idiot if I don't see things as you do. Are you Phaedrus?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    It's like asking how many fingers a dragon has; thing is, there are no dragons in the first place.
    This is a senseless comparison. And dragons do exist, but only in certain ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Whenever a person like you demands a direct answer to a question, chances are that they are not really interested in gaining understanding, but more after an emotional need. In your case it seems like your goal is simply to shake the negative feelings. If you were really interested in understanding, you should be interested in the idea that perhaps you're looking at the problem from the wrong perspective and that any related answer is to be flawed.
    Your assumptions are very close minded and incorrect.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    I have always had a difficult time with "regret", as I tend to blame myself first and foremost, having a defective sense of self-worth.

    My "feelings" of regret ultimately become a kind of mental torture. Even if I may truly believe I followed my heart, I wind up focusing on the end result. That is, if the other person rejects me, disagrees or has a negative reaction to something about me, somehow I'm always wrong. I have trouble separating true remorse (when I am directly responsible for doing or saying something inconsistent with my moral code) from self-blame (when someone else has a negative reaction to me, when I've done nothing to directly warrant responsibility for their reaction).

    Somehow, "rejection" and "wrong" are often conflated in my self-concept, leading to regret and self-recrimination for being myself.
    Generally speaking, I relate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    This sounds like an afterconstruct to me. If, like Winterpark said, we unintentionally hurt somebody with our actions we will still have hurt that person no matter how much we tell ourselves our action was necessary/part of a paradigm shift in life or whatever. To justify it as 'I had to do it' afterwards, when the consequences become clear, may not be entirely truthful. If we knew the result of our actions we may have chosen another way to act. But this is the human dilemma, we do not always know and we do hurt other people without meaning to.
    Exactly.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    And when is a question "wrongly stated"? When you think it is? I must be an idiot if I don't see things as you do. Are you Phaedrus?
    Nah, I lose my time with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Nah, I lose my time with you.
    I think you're right.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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