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Thread: Karl Marx

  1. #81
    echidna1000's Avatar
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    It is the IEI who asserts a long-term historical narrative of our society that is still predicted to unfold (T), wherein individuals are reduced to classes (L) locked in a state of struggle (F).

    Those people who assert Alpha NT see the L, sure, but they are not looking at the Beta T/F values surrounding this.

  2. #82
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echidna1000 View Post
    It is the IEI who asserts a long-term historical narrative of our society that is still predicted to unfold (T), wherein individuals are reduced to classes (L) locked in a state of struggle (F).

    Those people who assert Alpha NT see the L, sure, but they are not looking at the Beta T/F values surrounding this.
    Naw, ILE's are the big super long term thinkers, but they don't control the timing very well. Which is why his predictions are largely true 150 years later instead of right after his death, his timing was off but we largely live in a world where alienation and commodity fetishism has taken hold, where finance capitalism rules the day. is good at figuring out potential outcomes but devalues timing, which is focused on(which devalues alternative possibility for subjective vision). Marx was not fully committed to his vision of communism and this is where his break with Bakunin arose. Almost all "Marxist" revolutions occurred based on Bakunin's idea of peasant revolution(). Marx believed in organized rational action(Ti), and Bakunin the impulsive mass of force(Se) which included criminals and such. This is the fundamental conflict of later Marx vs earlier Marx when he shifted from a accepting sub-type to creative sub-type.

    ILE's also have as the role function and this is the primary social function they perceive which is something they observe keenly and react against yet is not something they prefer. Marx observed this keenly and he could not dismiss what he saw, and as an Spinozist his view was "Might makes right" and although this may seem like it values , the core aspect of this philosophy is devaluing because it's about redefining "What is Might". Marx is no different here, because in his world Capitalists had the might and the lower classes did not, his view like that of Spinoza was to redefine the perception of Might. There is also a huge misconception about because it's purpose is not passive, and as a Pe function it is not boundary respecting, but in a more cognitive, internal fashion rather than the external sensory fashion. Marx's goal was to unlock the potential of the proletariat class and use this organized power of such a movement to change the world. This is an educated, competent, decent class that was socially involved but oppressed, this is a remark on potentiality of this specific class and not one based on impulsive reactionary revolutions of the past which largely consisted of peasantry, criminals and demagogues.

    So essentially Marx's idea was that a educated, socially involved, oppressed class(with high potential) can organize and unlock their potential power to overturn the social order. This is essentially - - information transformation. But Marxist-Leninism which was created by a SLE is essentially a - method which takes power and then organizes people.

    I think most individuals that criticize Marx do not understand his work and attribute many of the actions and consequences of individuals(betas) who came after Marx towards Marx and this interferes with the typing.

    Communist solutions have essentially been beta but this is very different than the half glorification, half lament for capitalism that exists in Marx's writings. For Marx, Capitalism was something that freed people from aristocratic slavery, and as such an advancement for humanity, but it is plagued with many problems. This is essentially a Alpha Democrat's criticism of Gamma Democrats. From his background as an dialectical philosopher he was attempting to posit the anti-thesis and synthesis which would interact with capitalism in order to form a new order, unfortunately this is probably not his cognitive strong point and he was only able to describe the problem and the solution is woefully lacking in detail. And he was dealing with these psychological and sociological problems long before these became every day issues of social science. So what Marx did well was describe the mechanism of capitalism, and it's effect on the psychology of individuals and the mechanism in the psychology which created problems in his environments, and in potential environments that would arise from capitalism. What he failed to do was foresee how long it would take to do as well as what his own calls for intervention would do. Humanity is once again in a time of great growth in wealth disparity, great alienation and it once again portends great struggle(of class and other sort). Because humanity has not been able to solve the problem of alienation, solve the problem of our own psyches rebelling against itself. Earlier in this conversation many individuals talk about political systems that dismissed human nature, but Marx did not create these systems and you cannot attribute them to his thinking, what is clear is that human nature is the problem and this is implicit in Marx's thoughts. For all our advancement, there is still so solution for our will towards destruction and self-destruction, these patterns start from the small from individuals and families and arise also when people cooperate and group. The individual diseases are infectious and sometimes the groups go mad.

    Modern sociology and psychology have begun to study some details of these phenomena that Marx only began to observe and understand. The economic conditions today also are trending towards the description Marx presented and as such Marx is experiencing a resurgence, because what he described is hard to dismiss when it's smacking you in the face.

    Also from a remarkable standpoint, Marx never thought communism would work in Russia(which it did not), he did not see Russia as being capable of implementing communism. The only major power that is still based in Marxist-Leninist philosophy(despite all the capitalism running around) is China and this country doing quite well, while bringing hundreds of millions of people to the middle class. Industrial modes of production are actually a prerequisite for communism yet it's difficult to create this industrial world in communism, which is why capitalism is the mechanism by which overturned feudalism, and you can see this occurring in China under essentially Beta/Gamma leadership. Yet the problems of capitalism plagues China like no other place because it's vastness and growth in recent times. China is caught in a great dialectic between it's capitalist industry and its communist origins, and from this there is a potential for synthesis. Marx is taboo in the US/UK for the most part but it is still required reading in China to almost everyone and furthermore they see the problems Marx laid out in everything day to day.
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    From what I've read in his manifesto, he intellectually grasped the essence of history, flipped it around and came up with rules to aid the new order --> NeTi 5w6 So/Sp.
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    Last edited by golden; 01-11-2017 at 08:06 PM.

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