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Thread: Tao Te Ching

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    Default Tao Te Ching

    Is anyone familiar with it's teachings?

    I just read a bit of it... and I have to say that I've never seen anything so Ne/Si.
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    Daoism was one of my favorite philosophies (though more getting into Chuang Tzu than Yang Chu or Lao Tzu). I actually wondered if it might not be Ni, but that's probably because it's so purposefully vague. It's been a while since I read the Tao Te Ching so it was more of a memory thing than looking at it closely. Very dynamic in scope I'd say.

    However, I can kind of see it as a reaction towards more typically held Confucian ideas, which I tend to see as more Gamma oriented.
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    I'd say he probably has Te as his second function.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Daoism was one of my favorite philosophies (though more getting into Chuang Tzu than Yang Chu or Lao Tzu). I actually wondered if it might not be Ni, but that's probably because it's so purposefully vague. It's been a while since I read the Tao Te Ching so it was more of a memory thing than looking at it closely. Very dynamic in scope I'd say.

    However, I can kind of see it as a reaction towards more typically held Confucian ideas, which I tend to see as more Gamma oriented.
    There's definitely no Se valuing there. (See what I quoted in the James Allen topic.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I'd say he probably has Te as his second function.
    Who?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Who?
    Tao Te Ching
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    i agree; i think taoism basically has elements of Ni and Si but is probably closer to SLI as an integral philosophy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    There's definitely no Se valuing there.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. I suppose I didn't mean it as a valued function necessarily, just that Ni seemed to make an appearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    i agree; i think taoism basically has elements of Ni and Si but is probably closer to SLI as an integral philosophy.
    I could see this pretty easily. The focus of a lot of the work seems squarely on a dynamic inward perception of life and the world, and I'd say that the sort of immersive quality it places on what's going on all around is probably more a sign of an Si-outlook, if that makes any sense at all.
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    Lao Tzu is a true baller. Tao Te Ching seems repetitive/redundant/whatever after a while, but if you are willing to let things sink in and don't just let yourself get frustrated with what seems to be mindless reframing of essentially identical ideas, it is actually good advice that is worth listening to.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Tao Te Ching
    lololololol

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Lao Tzu is a true baller. Tao Te Ching seems repetitive/redundant/whatever after a while, but if you are willing to let things sink in and don't just let yourself get frustrated with what seems to be mindless reframing of essentially identical ideas, it is actually good advice that is worth listening to.
    How the hell is this good advice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How the hell is this good advice?
    Try it and find out.
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    I should try being fat, stupid, and useless?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I should try being fat, stupid, and useless?
    Not exalting the gifted doesn't make one stupid.

    Stuffing your belly (depending on if you interpret this as gluttony or, as is probably more accurate given the historical context, as satisfying one's physical needs and taking pleasure in that) doesn't make one fat.

    Taking things as they come without any sort of ceaseless attempt to make your mark on the world and the accompanying conflict that generates doesn't make you useless.

    It's not a perfect philosophy, but it's one that seeing the immense conflict and rigid focus present at its advent in Chinese history, makes some sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Not exalting the gifted doesn't make one stupid.
    That wasn't the part I was referring to when I said "stupid". That was the one line I agreed with.

    Stuffing your belly (depending on if you interpret this as gluttony or, as is probably more accurate given the historical context, as satisfying one's physical needs and taking pleasure in that) doesn't make one fat.
    I figured as much. I was mostly joking about that one.

    Taking things as they come without any sort of ceaseless attempt to make your mark on the world and the accompanying conflict that generates doesn't make you useless.
    See, making your mark on the world is a concept that I would lump in with the first line.

    It's not a perfect philosophy, but it's one that seeing the immense conflict and rigid focus present at its advent in Chinese history, makes some sense.
    I very much understand the value in being fully present. The concepts of nonattachment, nonresistance, and nonjudgment are very meaningful to me. When I think about the text in those terms, it makes more sense... However, the manner in which those concepts are being presented in the Tao Te Ching really rubs me the wrong way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How the hell is this good advice?
    It's not if you take it literally instead of reading between the lines and trying to see what the underlying message is.

    If it doesn't seem repetitive to the nth degree, you're not reading it right When it does seem repetitive, you will realize that life really is that simple.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The idea behind the Tao Te Ching, IMO, is to reiterate similar concepts in a variety of applications in order to hammer home the underlying message on a more subconscious level.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It's not if you take it literally instead of reading between the lines and trying to see what the underlying message is.

    If it doesn't seem repetitive to the nth degree, you're not reading it right When it does seem repetitive, you will realize that life really is that simple.
    I didn't get all that far, but it did indeed seem repetitive. I much prefer Tolle's version of these concepts, though the way he explains them isn't a completely perfect fit for me, either. I imagine most people who read up on such things end up piecing together their own understanding from various sources they've read and their own values and experiences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I didn't get all that far, but it did indeed seem repetitive. I much prefer Tolle's version of these concepts, though the way he explains them isn't a completely perfect fit for me, either. I imagine most people who read up on such things end up piecing together their own understanding from various sources they've read and their own values and experiences.
    I think they would be fucking retarded if they took any single one and ran with it.

    If you are seeing the thematic repetition in Tao Te Ching, I have to wonder why you insist on interpreting Lao Tzu's passages so literally, especially if you are both taking time and cultural scope in to account, and looking for pertinent ideas for your own life, as opposed to being out to criticize its relevance to your own life when approached with a fundamentalist attitude.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I think they would be fucking retarded if they took any single one and ran with it.

    If you are seeing the thematic repetition in Tao Te Ching, I have to wonder why you insist on interpreting Lao Tzu's passages so literally, especially if you are both taking time and cultural scope in to account, and looking for pertinent ideas for your own life, as opposed to being out to criticize its relevance to your own life when approached with a fundamentalist attitude.
    Like I said... it just rubs me the wrong way. It's the way the concepts are presented, not the concepts themselves. And I was mostly joking about the "stupid, fat, and useless" thing. It's just that to me, that's what it sounds like it's saying. I realize that it's not meant to be taken at face value like that, but idk... imagine the most annoying pop song you've ever heard having a really good message that you totally agree with. You still wouldn't like the song.
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    Personally it's a lot easier for me to separate meaning from content when it's words on a page; obnoxious vocals, cheesy background music, and poor soundboarding tend to be massive distractions.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    It's an exaggerated analogy, but the point remains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    lololololol

    How the hell is this good advice?
    Read the text without reading the text. Meaning can be found in the text. The meaning of the text is a text without meaning. The tao is in the text and tao is not in the text. The tao is found in acting without acting, being without being, and becoming without becoming.
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    Yeah, I know... it's just not for me. Like I said, the same exact concepts are present in other books, and I personally prefer some of those other books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Yeah, I know... it's just not for me. Like I said, the same exact concepts are present in other books, and I personally prefer some of those other books.
    I'm going to make a wild guess here by saying that the Tao Te Ching came first and the rest are a bunch of unoriginal hacks.
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    The Tao Te Ching holds a patent on spiritual truth? Those spiritual truths didn't exist before it was written? They wouldn't have existed had it not been written?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It's an exaggerated analogy, but the point remains.
    Personally I find it rather insignificant. But that's me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    The Tao Te Ching holds a patent on spiritual truth? Those spiritual truths didn't exist before it was written? They wouldn't have existed had it not been written?
    You are reading what I am saying without reading what I am saying.
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    How the hell is this good advice?
    It is, if you aim is to prevent quarreling, stealing, and confusion of the heart in an absolutely certain way.

    In fact, it seems to be the perfect philosophy from an irrational-introverted-positivist-dynamic. I can't say I disagree, I can only say it is a philosophy my own mind and body could not easily follow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    You are reading what I am saying without reading what I am saying.
    lol
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    As a personal interpretation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    How the hell is this good advice?
    "Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling." - If you show off, people will be bitter and won't work as well will you.

    "Not collecting treasures prevents stealing." - A robber only tries to rob you if you have something of value.

    "Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart." - Example: a monk engaging in a fast would not want to 'confuse' his/her heart (i.e. weaken his/her resolve) by thinking longingly about the most delicious roast dinner.

    "If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere." - If you show off your knowledge, or try to come across as learned, then 'clever people' may try to influence you. Better to just be yourself, be natural, don't have any pretensions, and everything will be fine.

    "If nothing is done, then all will be well." - Take a look at a topic that I started recently: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=20758 If I did 'nothing' i.e. just was myself, then it would solve a lot of problems for me. Another example is if someone wants to be a strict teacher, or to come across as strict, or to come across as dignified etc ... they will be so insecure about their image that people will see through them and know that they aren't really strict, or dignified etc. But if the teacher changes himself or herself so that he or she actually is strict, or dignified, or strong, or has a high sense of self-esteem, this will naturally be reflected in an understated way that is far more powerful.


    Another point to note is that Taoist texts were often quite cryptic. "If nothing is done" is only one half of the equation. You need the other half (compare with yin-yang philosophy). Doing 'nothing' is know as "wu-wei"; but before you do nothing you need to do something, which is known as "yu-wei". As an example, you're going to take an exam.

    Yu-wei: you prepare as best you can
    Wu-wei ("If nothing is done, then all will be well."): you don't 'try' to be clever in the exam, or to do well, you just do it naturally and let your preparation 'take the exam for you'
    Five/Tanzhe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Is anyone familiar with it's teachings?

    I just read a bit of it... and I have to say that I've never seen anything so Ne/Si.
    I consider myself actually a syncretist composite of pagan and Taoist ideals.

    In fact, the only belief I've been able to sustain has been in the advice I receive from the I Ching, which I consult a few times a week. It's calming, thoughtful and almost unfailingly accurate. (Sometimes a bit incomprehensible, but usually spot on crystal-clear).

    It is absolutely an irrational-appealing philosophy. Like Zen.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

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    Lao Tzu is probably an SLI. He supervises Joy, because he knows exactly how to work the system, while recognising that it's futile. Joy fails to see how futile her life is.

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    Nonattachment, nonjudgment, nonresistance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Nonattachment, nonjudgment, nonresistance.
    Whereas your doctrine is, attachment, judgement and resistance. Correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Whereas your doctrine is, attachment, judgement and resistance. Correct?
    Doctrine? I wouldn't use that word.

    But no. I also believe that nonattachment, nonjudgment, and nonresistance are the keys to spiritual development and personal growth.
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    Placate, Sedate, Eradicate.
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    lather, rinse, repeat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    lather, rinse, repeat
    hehe
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    I must say old Lao Tzu makes tons of sense to me I am much like aka-kitsune in that regard. I also enjoy the 'logic' and wisdom behind the I Ching even if I don't consult it as such.
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    In a past thread on Lao Tzu, hkkmr said that Taoism is an irrational philosophy about fitting into "nature" in contrast to Stoicism which is a rational philosophy about fitting into "nature".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Doctrine? I wouldn't use that word.

    But no. I also believe that nonattachment, nonjudgment, and nonresistance are the keys to spiritual development and personal growth.
    So you're actually embracing some of the Ne/Si aspects of Taoism, despite your true character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    In a past thread on Lao Tzu, hkkmr said that Taoism is an irrational philosophy about fitting into "nature" in contrast to Stoicism which is a rational philosophy about fitting into "nature".
    Stoicism is anti-nature. In fact, rationality is anti-nature.

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