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Thread: dbmmama and Fi?

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    @mimosa: yes you describe creative Fi very well indeed. flexible. is leading Fi the same way though?

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by mimosa pudica
    At least my Fi-rules don't allow me to EVER make my laws universal. In my perception, the Fi-rules are about feelings (fields) - "I can't hurt people", "I should respect others and their believes", etc. The Fi-rules are NEVER about "objects", like the rules you describe here are. You talk about how MOTHERS and KIDS are and should behave to live happy lives. Also, my Fi would never, ever allow me to think that what is right for me is right for anyone else, not even for my children. And I treat my children differently as well, according to how I see them responding to different care taking. I work, but I don't judge anyone not working, nor others working more than me. Nor fathers working, nor fathers staying at home. Nor parents leaving their kids with the grand parents or in day care. I "judge" all by the different feelings I pick up, and I see that some people are happy with how they live, some are not. And it's not about staying home or not. Both can be good, both can be bad, even simultaneously or different from person to person, depending on a lot of things. I think that is how my Fi works, and that's why I think you are wrong when you think your "rules" are about Fi. Your rules limit choices and thus the flow of energy, the very flow of energy I perceive to be Fi. If your rules limit Fi, how can they be Fi-valuing? Your rules, as I perceive it, limit Fi as they limit it's freedom.
    This sheds absolute no light on her type (or Fi, for that matter).
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    I think maybe Fi-leading is perhaps a bit more rigid than that, but I agree fundamentally with Mimosa's views (except I don't necessarily get "feelings" nor would I make an association between feelings and fields, hmm but I guess Fi could be how you feel about something, the relation between you and that something, so I guess in a way it makes sense). It seems more generally to be a delta outlook to me. I actually think the main distinction she is trying to make is not (or is not just) Fi/Te vs Ti/Fe but rather Ne/Si vs. Se/Ni (though it could be both). I think valued Fi blocked with Se could be what Mimosa is pointing out in dbmmama, whereas she herself maybe uses Fi blocked with Ne.

    I was going to quote something from wikisocion about Delta types not liking rules which didn't take individual circumstances into account, but now I can't find it :S

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    Well, to be honest, I tend to agree with dbmamma on that point. Not necessarily on the way she expressed her position, but my views are aligned with hers as far as the core issue goes. I've seen Fi types (Diana, if I recall correctly) agreeing with her, too.
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    She's probably ESFj.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere
    I think maybe Fi-leading is perhaps a bit more rigid than that, but overall I feel some resonance with Mimosa's views. It seems more generally to be a delta outlook to me. I actually think the main distinction she is trying to make is not (or is not just) Fi/Te vs Ti/Fe but rather Ne/Si vs. Se/Ni (though it could be both). I think Fi blocked with Se could be what Mimosa is talking about, whereas she herself uses Fi blocked with Ne.
    Any distinction between Te/Fi and Ti/Fe was lost in the convoluted string she spewed. As for a difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni, I think that is remotely plausible, as Se/Ni tends to be more absolute (if that is what you're referring to) in it's experiential outlook.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere
    I was going to quote something from wikisocion about Delta types not liking rules which didn't take individual circumstances into account, but now I can't find it :S
    Yes, and I am grateful that you couldn't find it.
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    Can't say about Fi valuing... but I do think ESFj is the most likely type for dbmmama.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    How is Obama a pussy? All politicians need to be idealistic. They are getting lots of fat cash precisely *to* be idealistic leaders instead of doers. You can't blame them for that. Experience can be hired. Politicians and leaders are much better when they're idealist intuitives rather than hard-working "manly" sensors. It's the nature of the beast. Writers are the same way. The pen is mightier than the sword, and dictates the ideal way for humans to behave. The intelligent control the non-intelligent in this game.

    Have you seen Obama try to bowl? He can't really do actual work well, but that's why he's a politician. *insert random joke here.* Politicians by their very nature are like that. They are supposed to understand how all systems work but not get their feet sullied in any one thing. A civilization needs that, unless you want to give up your conveniences. People that want to 'stick it to the man' can't even give up their i-pods or computers or level of cozy comfort. I'm just saying.

    Bush tried to rule with a iron fist and look where it got us. More Heart and Mind and Spirit than Hand, please. I'd take a liberal pussy boy over a bully boy conservative any day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Any distinction between Te/Fi and Ti/Fe was lost in the convoluted string she spewed. As for a difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni, I think that is remotely plausible, as Se/Ni tends to be more absolute (if that is what you're referring to) in it's experiential outlook.
    yes, that's what i was referring to

    Yes, and I am grateful that you couldn't find it.
    why? do you think that is inaccurate? maybe i dreamt it up

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Well, to be honest, I tend to agree with dbmamma on that point. Not necessarily on the way she expressed her position, but my views are aligned with hers as far as the core issue goes. I've seen Fi types (Diana, if I recall correctly) agreeing with her, too.
    Right, I didn't see any specific function usage in dbmmama's paragraph, really. Her opinion made logical sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimosa pudica
    I don't say Fi-types can't agree, or disagree for that matter. I say it's probably not Fi-rules, rather cultural rules. dbmmama (who I like a lot) seemed to think these are Fi-rules, and I don't think they are.
    What is an Fi rule, to you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimosa pudica
    As I said, it was not about her opinion, it was about her thinking her opinion has to do with Fi. I don't think it has, and that was meant to help her.
    Why did it have to do with EJ or Fe, then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    I was going to quote something from wikisocion about Delta types not liking rules which didn't take individual circumstances into account, but now I can't find it :S
    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Yes, and I am grateful that you couldn't find it.
    actually it was from Rick's site:

    Subdued elements:
    The Delta Quadra doesn't appreciate high ideals or abstractions that don't relate well to real life. They also don't like large institutions or power systems that do not take into consideration the interests of separate individuals.
    I guess that's not really what Mimosa was pointing out in dbmmama's post, but I still think the reason for her [Mimosa's] view at least is her Ne-valuing

    and also there's a similar theme in Alpha
    Subdued elements:
    The Alpha Quadra is especially sensitive to and critical of mercantilistic views, ostentatious displays of wealth and status symbols, rude and aggressive behavior, moral criticism, and people who suggest they are wasting their time on unproductive things.
    its Ne/Si vs. Se/Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    At least my Fi-rules don't allow me to EVER make my laws universal. In my perception, the Fi-rules are about feelings (fields) - "I can't hurt people", "I should respect others and their believes", etc. The Fi-rules are NEVER about "objects", like the rules you describe here are. You talk about how MOTHERS and KIDS are and should behave to live happy lives. Also, my Fi would never, ever allow me to think that what is right for me is right for anyone else, not even for my children. And I treat my children differently as well, according to how I see them responding to different care taking. I work, but I don't judge anyone not working, nor others working more than me. Nor fathers working, nor fathers staying at home. Nor parents leaving their kids with the grand parents or in day care. I "judge" all by the different feelings I pick up, and I see that some people are happy with how they live, some are not. And it's not about staying home or not. Both can be good, both can be bad, even simultaneously or different from person to person, depending on a lot of things. I think that is how my Fi works, and that's why I think you are wrong when you think your "rules" are about Fi. Your rules limit choices and thus the flow of energy, the very flow of energy I perceive to be Fi. If your rules limit Fi, how can they be Fi-valuing? Your rules, as I perceive it, limit Fi as they limit it's freedom.
    I'm somewhat confused, since I'm still trying to come to grips with and , but how is this about ? Since concerns static bonds between people, I'm not sure in what way can ever prescribe any form of 'general' rules where the other 'person' is not identified. After all, in an impersonal situation, what operates is not but - that is, the principle of 'I can't hurt people' and 'I should respect people and their beliefs' is in fact a Ti-rule, whilst an Fi-rule might be 'I can't hurt Steven' and 'I should respect Louise and her beliefs'. The difference with blocking according to and would be how these bonds are formed and how they are maintained/broken.

    Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I'm somewhat confused, since I'm still trying to come to grips with and , but how is this about ? Since concerns static bonds between people, I'm not sure in what wat can ever prescribe any form of 'general' rules when the other 'person' is not identified. After all, in an impersonal situation, what operates is not but - that is, the principle of 'I can't hurt people' and 'I should respect people and their beliefs' is in fact a Ti-rule, whilst an Fi-rule might be 'I can't hurt Steven' and 'I should respect Louise and her beliefs'. The difference with blocking according to and would be how these bonds are formed and how they are maintained/broken.

    Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
    Not sure if that's the standard interpreation, but it makes a great deal of sense. And shows why morality isn't just an Fi thing. I might have to reassess myself in terms of Fi vs Ti

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I'm somewhat confused, since I'm still trying to come to grips with and , but how is this about ? Since concerns static bonds between people, I'm not sure in what way can ever prescribe any form of 'general' rules where the other 'person' is not identified. After all, in an impersonal situation, what operates is not but - that is, the principle of 'I can't hurt people' and 'I should respect people and their beliefs' is in fact a Ti-rule, whilst an Fi-rule might be 'I can't hurt Steven' and 'I should respect Louise and her beliefs'. The difference with blocking according to and would be how these bonds are formed and how they are maintained/broken.

    Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
    actually I think this (your view on Fi) is perfectly consistent with what Mimosa was saying. She didn't identify the specific people explicitly, but in what she said was implied that you can't have general rules which you can use to judge all people, but that you have to take the specific people into account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    actually I think this (your view on Fi) is perfectly consistent with what Mimosa was saying. She didn't identify the specific people explicitly, but in what she said was implied that you can't have general rules which you can use to judge all people, but that you have to take the specific people into account.
    Having read her first post a few times over I would surmise that Mimosa meant that dbmmama's sentiment indicated a form of Ti-rule: that is all mothers should behave in the same way with respect to their children, rather than taking into account the specific individuals (Mother X, Child A, Child B, Child C), which would indicate -valuing. And as a result, it is more likely that dbmmama belongs to a quadra that values Fe/Ti rather than Fi/Te?
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Having read her first post a few times over I would surmise that Mimosa meant that dbmmama's sentiment indicated a form of Ti-rule: that is all mothers should behave in the same way with respect to their children, rather than taking into account the specific individuals (Mother X, Child A, Child B, Child C), which would indicate -valuing. And as a result, it is more likely that dbmmama belongs to a quadra that values Fe/Ti rather than Fi/Te?
    yeah that's what I got as well. But I thought you were asking how Mimosa's own views were Fi? sorry if I misunderstood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I'm not sure I see what you mean (I'm no expert in functions), but I can answer how it is for me. There are general rules at the bottom saying I should not hurt anyone, and then there are spesific guidelines telling me how to relate to different people. I.e. some people will like a little joking, some will not. So I can ban "joking about the glasses of Emma" and still "joke about the glasses of John", as I will know that Emma doesn't like it, and John does.

    As you can see, you are both right and wrong. It is true that my guidelines are different for different people, but still, "joke about glasses" can't ever be a general rule. I can't ban a specific "object", just a "feeling" (hurt anyone).

    Don't know if that answered anything, I'm a little confused in what is what function myself. Also Fi, is a "feeling" I take in more than something I can write about in words. When I say "don't hurt anyone" it's about sensing how they feel more than how to act with them. Things you say to one person can be completely wrong if you say it to another, and you just know what is and what's not good when you talk with someone.

    If that's not about Fi, then I don't know what type I am...........

    Yes.
    To me, there's a lot of functions jumbled up there, but the question of adjusting your behaviour toward different people is more a question of than . What guides your output can be either or . You might use both, but the extent to which you privilege on over the other indicates a particular valuing of that function.

    But I think I understand what you were trying to say in your original post. And also, on a completely unrelated note, I do think dbmmama is ESE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    yeah that's what I got as well. But I thought you were asking how Mimosa's own views were Fi? sorry if I misunderstood
    Yes, I was doing that as well, although I don't want to push for answers too much.
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    thank you mimosa for wanting to help clarify things for me...

    but for
    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    All you people who love to type based on surface manifestations, heed this message, and heed it good
    suck a dick and die. I'm not ESE either. good day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama
    suck a dick and die. I'm not ESE either. good day.
    lol, wtf? you realize that message was directed at people typing me in enneagram based on bullshit, right? And where did I claim you were ESFj? I didn't even type you in this thread lol. You've essentially contradicted yourself without any outside help. congrats!
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    lol, wtf? you realize that message was directed at people typing me in enneagram based on bullshit, right? And where did I claim you were ESFj? I didn't even type you in this thread lol. You've essentially contradicted yourself without any outside help. congrats!
    it wasn't directed at you. i was just using your words, i liked them. i was referring to people who just jumped on the bandwagon of saying i'm ESE without knowing really knowing me the same way you said in your thread about me and/or others saying you were a 6 who don't really know you.

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    I know people with Fi + Se who might have the same kind of arguments. I could see how it might lead you to believe she isn't Fi + Ne, because we're more prone to considering choices people might make in every possible scenario. But I don't even know if I'd rule that out on that one post, because some of these kinds of beliefs come from our own personal experiences rather than having a Socionic explanation.

    So, dbmmama, I can't keep track but what types are you considering for yourself, and what have you ruled out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You've essentially contradicted yourself without any outside help. congrats!
    And that *could* point to weak (and maybe unvalued) Ti, but again there could be other explanations too. Still, that's a classic Ti PoLR thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama
    it wasn't directed at you. i was just using your words, i liked them. i was referring to people who just jumped on the bandwagon of saying i'm ESE without knowing really knowing me the same way you said in your thread about me and/or others saying you were a 6 who don't really know you.
    oh lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    oh lol
    now, we've got something here about me.

    i thought that my meaning of what i said in that post was perfectly clear. but, you and/or allie both interpreted the same way and not in the way i meant. and then i have to go back over what i said to explain it. this shit happens to me a lot irl. it sucks. and i do it to others too. i like clarity, clarity of thought, clarity of meaning. i'm a stickler for the meaning of words to mean exactly what a person says, yet, i must not be able to do it if others keep misinterpreting what i mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    And that *could* point to weak (and maybe unvalued) Ti, but again there could be other explanations too. Still, that's a classic Ti PoLR thing.
    at this moment, SEE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I know people with Fi + Se who might have the same kind of arguments. I could see how it might lead you to believe she isn't Fi + Ne, because we're more prone to considering choices people might make in every possible scenario. But I don't even know if I'd rule that out on that one post, because some of these kinds of beliefs come from our own personal experiences rather than having a Socionic explanation.
    i AM open to those possibilities when thinking of others, but don't do it right away or naturally. but i will do them after some thought.

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    You do seem more Se than Ne. And I can see how you could have Ti PoLR. So I think SEE makes sense, personally. And I can hear those arguments coming from one of many ISFjs or ESFps I know.

    Also, I think people with creative Fi get mislabeled Fe pretty often. Extraversion + obvious F type doesn't necessarily = Fe.
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    Actually, SEE does make some degree of sense, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    now, we've got something here about me.

    i thought that my meaning of what i said in that post was perfectly clear. but, you and/or allie both interpreted the same way and not in the way i meant. and then i have to go back over what i said to explain it. this shit happens to me a lot irl. it sucks. and i do it to others too. i like clarity, clarity of thought, clarity of meaning. i'm a stickler for the meaning of words to mean exactly what a person says, yet, i must not be able to do it if others keep misinterpreting what i mean.
    Total stab in the dark, but that seems to suggest not the greatest Fe, nor much Ti either. And maybe Te valuing with 'wanting the words to mean what the person says'. lol, am totally reaching here. My socionics-fu is still in neophyte mode.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Actually, SEE does make some degree of sense, too.
    thank you. i like you elmo. and respect your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Total stab in the dark, but that seems to suggest not the greatest Fe, nor much Ti either. And maybe Te valuing with 'wanting the words to mean what the person says'. lol, am totally reaching here. My socionics-fu is still in neophyte mode.
    since i'm thinking SEE, that fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I know people with Fi + Se who might have the same kind of arguments. I could see how it might lead you to believe she isn't Fi + Ne, because we're more prone to considering choices people might make in every possible scenario. But I don't even know if I'd rule that out on that one post, because some of these kinds of beliefs come from our own personal experiences rather than having a Socionic explanation.
    here's the deal. i'm SEE. sis is IEE. we learned lots of cool stuff from each other over the years. she looks more SEI like because of it and i look more Ne because of it. but, irl, that's what we are.

    i gotta get the hell outta here! i got shit to DO!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Total stab in the dark, but that seems to suggest not the greatest Fe, nor much Ti either. And maybe Te valuing with 'wanting the words to mean what the person says'. lol, am totally reaching here. My socionics-fu is still in neophyte mode.
    i do understand a person's meaning underneath the words but i do not appreciate that i have to interpret it in my head. i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean without my brain having to guess and interpret it. even though i CAN do that, i'd rather not have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    i do understand a person's meaning underneath the words but i do not appreciate that i have to interpret it in my head. i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean without my brain having to guess and interpret it. even though i CAN do that, i'd rather not have to.
    And I do that sort of stuff reflexively, so it might be Fe related.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    And I do that sort of stuff reflexively, so it might be Fe related.
    then, i'm not really sure about my mil. you and her are so much alike. but, she was not good with reading people's facial expressions and such. she was amazed when i could so easily.

    i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    here's the deal. i'm SEE. sis is IEE. we learned lots of cool stuff from each other over the years. she looks more SEI like because of it and i look more Ne because of it. but, irl, that's what we are.

    i gotta get the hell outta here! i got shit to DO!!
    That made no sense.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    That made no sense.
    to you.

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