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Thread: INTj-ESFj dual relationship: How to Charm an ESFj

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    Talking INTj-ESFj dual relationship: How to Charm an ESFj

    Edit: Original post in Russian:http://www.socionik.com/thread/1613-0.html

    ++added: see also Duality observations


    How to Charm an ESFj


    We present to your attention instructions intended to help LIIs [Robesperam] to more confidently and comfortably become introduced with and continue relations with their only and unique ESEs [Gyugoshkami].

    Let us try to embrace the unembracable!!! (that is, ESEs)

    1. How to find / Where to look for ESFj?

    ESEs can be found everywhere due to their natural activeness and at least their curiosity (and at most - their inquisitiveness). Nevertheless, it is considered more natural to search for ESEs in the fields of possible application of their base function of "black ethics" Fe (fields of service, performance, music ...) and of creative "white sensing" Si - various branches of design-studio (design of interiors, exteriors, fox terriers…, of clothing, colors, people and events…, medicine, cooking, aesthetics, various fine arts, ballet and dance ...), as well as humanitarian professions (teaching), flora and fauna, travel guides, and so on….

    And nevertheless, facts are an obstinate thing, and they unequivocally show that ESFjs are sometimes inexorably drawn to exact sciences and technological spheres in general, i.e. places that usually have an abundance of LIIs. Thus, to begin, take a look around yourself ... - is it that merry girl who works at the neighboring desk, with whom it's so pleasant for you to associate?

    Besides the professional sphere, an important role in the life of any ESE play active forms of leisure. Moreover, they are often preferred: gatherings of friends and family members, picnics, barbecues, hiking, rock climbing and camping trips, racing tracks, student groups and clubs of all times and all peoples (because there it's fun! and helps one's community/country!), beaches, pools, gyms, theaters, concert halls, museums, sport competitions, ...

    2. How to recognize an ESFj?

    This is easier to do where ESEs can naturally show themselves. Possible types of manifestations as per the situation: mass-organizer, activist, welcoming host/hostess, attentive affable service personnel, enthusiast, fighter for fairness, sports fan, and so on. ... On the other hand, from the usual type descriptions sometimes an impression is created that every ESFj is geyser of uncontrollable emotions, which is not always true. Sometimes it is difficult to recognize an ESFj in everyday life: they occupy themselves with their work and hold themselves calmly. Taking into account the differences in temperaments, TIM accentuations, and other idiosyncratic features, together with the very active and emotional ESFj one may encounter the calmer, more balanced, and more domestic representatives of this TIM. Although they also greatly love to relate, they may prefer calmer leisure time, such as relaxing at home with tinges of romance. For these ESEs the wish to take a closer preliminary look at the person they would like to get to know is possible. Nevertheless, as a whole this is an unobtrusive, active, affable, merry, supportive of fairness and of order, not indifferent, intolerant of any abuse and conflicts, as well as any negative emotions in general, person.

    Addendum: Hugo can also be recognized by the way that she looks. Well tailored and composed, solidly sewed together, so is to say not a slightest deviation of the arrow to the side of "convenient" neither "beautiful". Exactly in the middle, complimentary and convenient - this is the impression coming from a true ESFj, and not only a visual one.

    3. How to become acquainted with an ESFj in real life?

    It is completely possible that the ESE will notice you herself first, and begin subtle unobtrusive attempts at getting acquainted: come to you concerning some business (on the given situation), easily inventing this business herself from an empty space (role function of "black logic", Te), or come to you with some enjoyable question or an affirmation - there are many possibilities here - but what's important is that this will feel quite comfortable (ESEs don't like to impose themselves) and natural, in accordance to your situation.

    Here, the most important thing is to respond in a friendly manner (your role function of "white ethics"), and then everything will work out for the best - the ESE will herself find topics for the conversation. On the other side, first steps to getting acquainted coming from a male INTj are certainly welcome!

    The following qualities of ESFjs are usually encouraging: their reaction to first acquaintance is, as a rule, positive; the base function of "black ethics" (Fe) right away manifests as being considerate, attentive, reacting in a way that is pleasant for you, and balancing of initiatives in conversation. For example even if you can't find something to talk about, your confusion will be right away evident to the ESFj and she will right away try to fill in the silence (one shouldn't put so much stress on a person! - creative Si). In other words, the initial introduction and follow-up interaction with an ESE should be sufficiently comfortable for an LII. This comfort the ESE creates him/herself via his or her strong functions - this is the very thing that ESEs do very well, that comes to them naturally.

    4. How to start and "tie up" a conversation?

    Try to ask questions that are appropriate to her situation: Has it been a while since the last bus came by? Is the line moving any faster? How to find a way in the directio ... in which she is going? (and thus walk together somewhere). Or: I am so-and-so, here because of this-and-this, how about you? If along with this you can also show that you are a cultured, friendly, and intelligent person (base Ti + creative Ne) - you won't go unnoticed! - so much of importance this combination is for the ESEs! That is, the main thing to which ESE will direct her attention are your strong functions and the ethics of your behavior.

    Before bidding farewell, propose to exchange phones (numbers, that is!). As a non-intrusive pretext for the exchanging phone numbers you can offer to pass on to her some information on a topic of interest to her, or on the general topic of your conversation. If you haven't agreed on who will call first - call her first, without doubt. Initiative from your end will be unambiguously welcome. With this it is better to not postpone making a call, or she will decide that for you it's not very important and won't right away insist on anything serious. Pretext can be anything: simply to ask how she's doing. If she has to make contact first, she also won't delay, and for the same reason - in order to not show disregard.

    5. What to talk about?

    You can talk about anything, starting from the weather and ending with the spaceships ploughing through the space ... although in the current period you are more interested in whether there is life on Mars, or where the mammoths have left. But certainly don't forget to talk about yourself and her! Show attention and interest. Talk about each other's interests, and how you feel about what you have discussed. What will interest the ESE is not only your verbal responses and comments, but you will perceived first and foremost with the entirety of ESE's "ethics of emotions", i.e. even your most subtle emotional reactions will be noticed and through their many shades your personal qualities, of which you do not speak out-loud, will be assessed. So, gradually, the information will accumulate about your character, your lifestyle, your values and principles, as well as how interesting it is with you, whether you can be trusted, and so on.

    Addendum: Recommendation for LIIs - at first don't be completely quiet, and later don't give out a lecture. LIIs, when they are animated, behave as Donkey from Winnie the Pooh, who can only be listened to and who hears only himself. It is necessary to dilute the stream of theoretical talk with concrete examples from daily life !!!!! Otherwise Hugos will fall asleep or lose patience. This is a hint to the fact that Hugo needs DIALOGUE

    6. Connecting through the Internet.

    Under other favorable conditions, correspondence through the Internet should be fairly active. Do not delay writing a response to her (ESE's "painful" function of Ni). Interest her with something, of special interest to her may be stories from your life (she needs your emotions, she cannot see them!), i.e. information about you, about your attitude to what you're debating, about what you are doing, what your interests are in life, what are your plans, what you dream about, what you love. She will also happily answer such questions.

    Occasionally, some of your theories may be of interest (your base function of "white logic" Ti will give them out in concise, structured, and as lucid and comprehensible form as possible - this is hypnosis for ESE's suggestive function ), as well as information that is of personal interest to you or what's happening in the news, etc. With the rest orient in the process of conversation - she will suggest to you herself what is interesting to her. Less of the negative, more gentleness and humor (you humor is typically funny for ESEs), more attention to her life, more interest in her problems, more help with advice and recommendations ... Then the conversion of a virtual meeting into real life will happen by itself. It's not a problem to persuade an ESE to come to the first meeting, if she is interested. It is sufficient to find one common interest or a reason to go somewhere together.

    7. What does the ESE pay attention to at the first meeting?

    At the first meeting the ESE pays attention both to your appearance and to your "content". Neat appearance at first meeting is, of course, important. But the main thing that draws ESFj's attention - your "thought-generator" and ethical behavior (in the common sense). And, understandably, that for a certain development of relations in the future, there is still such an aspect as basic physical attraction. Withthis it's however it happens.

    Addendum to the extremely delicate issue of physical attraction. I still insist that it would be great from Robics to devote some attention to their strength and stamina. It's such a pity and a shame when our duals are considered to be "over-thinking weaklings". It is even more of a pity when they end up being so (((( when they have had all the chances to demonstrate the power not only of their intellect and spirit, but also of their body, in which as we have repeatedly asserted Hugos appreciate harmony, then what is there to do ....

    8. Correspondence

    Active and enjoyable correspondence instills in the ESE a stable habit to communicate with you. If she supports such communication, and doesn't much delay with the responses (in cases of delays she will usually inform you of justifiable reasons), and you're getting to know each other better and better with more openness - it means you have a good chance to build a serious relationship. The degree of openness and freedom in your communication (i.e. the dynamic of increasing trust) is an indication that your relationship is developing very well.

    If something isn't quite right, ESE's limiting function of "white ethics", Fi, becomes triggered and your relations will lose their dynamicity, although it's likely that nothing negative will appear in them (as ESE's "white ethics" has a plus sign, +Fi). Limiting the development of relations is an unconscious reaction of ESEs on white ethics.

    At the request of our duals, we stop at this point to talk about this in greater detail.

    9. Possible causes for such behavior from ESFjs and various solutions to such problems are as follows:

    1) The reason may be trivial - the photos weren't impressive and ESE isn't obtaining the necessary for her information. From photos of formal nature, and terse, brief correspondence it is difficult for her to form an impression of you as a person, as she doesn't see your emotions.
    Suggested solution: You can add more photosgraphs, best of informal nature, where you are showing a smile. Tell her more about yourself and your interests, about your life.

    2) For now, she doesn't feel ready moving into a new stage of relations for her personal reasons, because of personal problems.
    Suggested solution: Try to strengthen her confidence in that you understand her well, show attention to her problems, support, help her with advice, show that you like her. This will greatly improve her trust in you.

    3) Something doesn't sit well with her in your communication or your character (for example, unusual to her stiffness or categoricalness from your side, or something else), even if she sees that as a whole you're a good person. In this case she will try not to encourage you too much, not getting a sufficient impulse to get closer.
    Try to talk with her about topics of informal nature, about yourself, more attention, support (as per previous point). If this doesn't help, it means this is a severe case.

    4) She may be feeling insecurities and having complexes (which could be unrelated to you, for personal reasons). Here nothing can be done except to try to convince her that you really like her. Write her compliments, show your approval and good attitude. This will instill confidence into her, that you are exactly that person who is willing to accept her as she is.

    There may be other reasons. In an extreme cases, you can try suspending your correspondence, and if the attraction still works (which happens with duals at initial stages), the dynamic will appear again. If, after a long break, she decides to renew the conversation, she will find you herself and won't wait for your initiative. It should also be noted that ESEs don't like to "hang" in relations for a long period of time in uncertainty - in this situation they will try to set the record straight and dot all the "i's".

    10. What might ESE like on a date?

    A beautiful romantic spot in nature, all things romantic, variety. You can arrange for a picnic for two, a boat ride, dinner by candlelight, a trip to some interesting location (historical or simply scenic), travel to the sea, the mountains, a hiking trip, an outing to the theater or a museum, she will suggest to you herself what she would like, if you ask her, and maybe even if you don't ask ...

    11. On that very topic ... What does the ESE need for it to happen?

    She needs to trust you to a certain level (which is different for every ESE) and at least a strong feeling of infatuation.

    12. What ESFjs dislike.

    Rudeness, unfairness, crassness, obtrusion, indifference, pressing (under pressure ESEs won't do anything). You shouldn't boast about your position in society (although, for Robics this is uncharacteristic). ESEs don't like when there is a lot of negativity (because on their base function of "ethics of emotions" Fe they live through it inside themselves, which is emotionally racking and difficult for them, sometimes even harder than for the narrator). They try to turn the situation in a positive direction, help with understanding and support, with concrete help, sometimes devoting a lot of their effort. Themselves they like to show optimism and charge others with positive emotions, jokes, and a good mood. Their innermost and deepest feelings and sufferings ESEs usually disclose only to a few, those whom they love and cherish, and whom they trust as they trust themselves. What they appreciate in others is intelligence, fairness, attentiveness, ability to listen, the wish and know-how on how to help. Support is needed on the "painful" function of "white intuition" Ni: to warn in advance about a change in plans, time or place of meeting, about any changes in what was agreed upon in general, as well as to warn about one's intentions (at least to an extent to which the ESE requests it - this is a must!). For example, if you don't know where specifically you'll be celebrating some holiday, then at least decide with her whether you plan to be together or not. Instead of telling her 2-3 days before the date about your decision. The rest will be automatically provided by the strong functions of INTjs.

    13. Desired signs of love for ESFjs - attentiveness in all its manifestations (calls, frequent meetings, flowers, etc.). But the main thing - your presence next to her! As for time, if her interest in her Robic is serious, then for him she will always find time!

    ---------------------------------------

    For the attention of members of this forum, we present an additional guide:

    How to Charm an ESFj: Instruction Set #2


    1. Where to look for ESFjs? - ESE's circle of interests if usually very wide - it could be technical and manual activities, it could be the humanitarian sphere; it is only important that this activity somehow allows for communication and brings in a stream of new information and new experiences. Therefore, it is possible to meet representatives of this TIM almost anywhere. Most likely the ESE won't engage in a long tedious project that requires a lot of patience, complete immersion and disconnection from his or her surroundings, especially from communication with others. Therefore, LIIs don't have to "pick out" their duals from hermit shelters and hideouts - looking there for them is useless. ESE may look inside there out of curiosity, or to keep company one of their friends, but this isn't true hermitage - only a game. Also the ESE may inhabit a place that allows him or her to re-live and re-experience some kind of negative state, but not for long, so as to not to splash it out on people around him and hurt them, but at such life moments it is best not to bother the ESE. He/she will sit it out, and then run back out "towards the people", to have fun and amuse them, to bring them a positive disposition and him/herself to submerse in this atmosphere created by ESE's own positive energy.

    2. How to recognize ESFj from a distance - This can be done by positive emotions that are usually "written on his or her face" ... hm ... or rather in the eyes - they are the same as the indicator light, clearly reflecting his or her inner state. To figure out a person belonging to this TIM, sometimes it's enough to watch from aside his process of communicating with others. If you see an emotional, mobile, perhaps a little fussy, person whose emotions are mostly positive, and if his/her emotions manifest before some real action, if in his conversation or his actions one can see a desire to "make it in time", concern and uncertainty about the timeliness of actions, possibly even some actions undertaken slightly out of place, but with the desire to do everything "the best way possible", if you notice the irrepressible optimism in his remarks, then it could be assumed that it is in front of you is a person of this type.

    3. How to not confuse representative of any other TIM for "Hugo"? - From Napoleon (SEE) or Huxley (IEE), Hugo can be distinguished by heightened emotionality, cheerful light disposition, some disregard for seriousness and formal distance, and the wish to clearly determine their own actions and know everything in advance. From Esenin (IEI), another quite emotional positivist type, Hugo is distinguished by uncertainty in matters of timeliness and propensity to sometimes make "somersaults" that are "not accepted" in society, lack of control over their emotions, talkativeness, all-encompassing sociability. To tell apart ESE from EIE can be done by those very same "somersaults". EIE "in public" does not permit himself such behavior, and of negative emotions he has many more than positive. Often Hugo is confused with Shtirlitz (LSE). Indeed, ESE may be very busy and preoccupied with his business, turning over a large amount of work. However, inherent seriousness for LSE makes work stand above pleasure and enjoyment, above the celebration of life, above communication and relations with others. This completely don't belong to the ESE. The LSE gravitates to certain seriousness, holding distance, consideration of status, and ESE's "somersaults" for him - is wild behavior. And if the ESE criticizes disorder with some gentleness and humor, then the LSE can become indignant over it and speak categorically not permitting for any appeals. For ESE further development of relations may be halted and hindered by ethical considerations (limiting function of "white ethics"), then for the LSE this is accomplished on basis of "white logic".

    4. How to get acquainted? - This is quite easy. ESEs are often responsive to any signals to start up communication. However, so that ESE's response isn't just a sign of courtesy, but has a potential for further relations, of course, it is desirable that these signals come in a cultured form. If someone is trying to get acquainted with them drunk, in boorish manner with unkempt look, then this is probably going to be unpleasant at least for someone. ESE likely won't respond with rudeness and aggression, although at this stage of introduction is over, even before it has started.

    Generally, if you occasionally see an ESE in any social group or location, you can make it clear that they can at times count on your help over some issues or questions (you can try to figure out ahead what kind of problems the ESE is dealing with, or will potentially have to deal with, in which you could offer your help). Don't doubt that if it is then needed, the ESE will surely come to you. Why solve problems on their own, when there are those who are well-versed in these matters - it is only needed to engage and organize them!

    The street version of getting acquainted - here you can conversely let the ESE know that it is you who is in need of their help. Simulate a situation, to come up with some problem, and politely ask for their help. ESEs are usually responsive and sympathetic - surely they will at least offer a way out of the situation. In this process of communication, it is important to demonstrate your strong qualities: intelligence - INTjs! I love your logic! ; humor - my wonderful duals, your humor is so delightful for me! ; courtesy and respect - as it has already been discussed on this forum Robespierres here are many points ahead of the rest put together! ; attentiveness and care - our dear duals, your intuition will surely suggest to you how to do something nice for the ESE and help to anticipate her wishes, the main thing here is to speak up to show that you've noticed, to pleasantly surprise her, and as for the realization of this "bedlam", she will take most of it onto her own shoulders.

    Virtual communication - of course, as with any communication, here it is important to find a common "points of contact" and interests. It's most likely the the ESE will talk more about themselves, about what they are occupied with. To ask you about yourself, just like that, from scratch - is well, I don't know ... the ESE usually has so many impressions from life, and will want to share all these experiences, that it may not even come to questions. Only if out of courtesy. Later, if you managed to interest Hugo with something original, evoke curiosity in him or her, then yes - you won't be able to evade all the questions. Thus, starting virtual dating is best from a couple of questions, and just a little beginning information about yourself. That you shouldn't delay with the answer - was previously covered. You can write a few words, pointing out that due to objective circumstances you cannot write a lot today, but that doesn't mean that you became uninterested and you no longer want to communicate. If this period is extended, write at least a couple of lines of some pleasant nonsense, just to let ESE know that you remember about him/her. If you don't come in contact for a long time, and if you have sufficiently interested the ESE, then it's possible that he or she will on their own initiative remind you about him/herself.

    5. If your relations have become stuck at some stage and do not move from this point to one side or another.

    There may be the following reasons:

    1) The ESE presently doesn't have enough time for communication. It is not a secret that this happens periodically. ESEs take up many tasks and activities at once, but sometimes don't know how to intelligently prioritize and allocate them in time. Urgent situations are disappointing and very worrying, and sometimes you have to make the hard choice - to put something aside so that you can get through all that is urgent and immediate, that is fraught with negative repercussions if it remains unattended. In such moments you need to patiently wait, offer your understanding, sympathy and support. Your patience and such relation towards Hugo in difficult for him or her periods will be appreciated and will come back to you with much gratitude.

    2) You are not to ESE's liking. This is sad, but it happens. ESE finds it difficult to say so directly to someone, for fear of offending, and how to say something like this and not to offend - the ESE doesn't know, and can't come up with anything. For example, if you are a very vulnerable and sensitive person, and this is usually felt by the ESE. Of course, for the ESE it's best in such cases to right away set it all straight, and not leave behind any uncertainties. But sometimes the ESFj may simply disappear from your field of view, in hopes that you will understand from her silence. Well, there are many variations in life and all people are different. In such cases, it is best to not pressure the ESE, to sort out relations. Such pressuring wont' lead to anything good. ESEs strongly dislike when they are being pressed. You can indirectly remind him or her about yourself. With a pleasant surprise of some kind, for example send her a flower, something that is funny, charming, and enjoyable. In this case the limiting function of "white ethics" may activate - "Oh, how he tries for me! Why torment a person so? I'm not that awful after all to subject him to this." And then she may explain for you the reason for her behavior and dot all the dots, such that your efforts would no be all in vain, or she main renew the contact and show some interest in you. It is quite possible that it is exactly with such unobtrusive, constant attention that you will conquer her. ESE very much enjoy when they are loved and adored, and are very responsive to this.++added: see also Duality observations
    Last edited by silke; 03-22-2016 at 10:54 PM. Reason: updated

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Before the farewell you will propose to exchange telephones (numbers, before the sense).
    Lol - handy tip.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    plays the productive leisure.
    lol productive leisure. Come on we have to have fun by 10:30! chop chop.

    ok if i want to be introduced to ESEs before the real, i just have to ask him "why long ago there was no bus?". And before the farewell I will propose to exchange telephones (numbers, before the sense). Because you know, that extrasensory perception thing can't be employed until like, the third date.

    and don't involve the bell.. cos you know.. they're not like the Fancy Feast cat that will just come running.

    my head hurts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    lol productive leisure. Come on we have to have fun by 10:30! chop chop.

    ok if i want to be introduced to ESEs before the real, i just have to ask him "why long ago there was no bus?". And before the farewell I will propose to exchange telephones (numbers, before the sense). Because you know, that extrasensory perception thing can't be employed until like, the third date.

    and don't involve the bell.. cos you know.. they're not like the Fancy Feast cat that will just come running.

    my head hurts!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    my head hurts!
    Don't let the enormity of what you just learned put you off Ms. K. Allow the knowledge to truly soak in and become a part of you and soon you'll have 3 ESEs hanging off each arm and a few groveling in your foot steps.

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    this is the pick-up line that worked with my ESE husband:

    "I such a one, am here because, and you?"

    I said those exact words. It was....magic.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    this is the pick-up line that worked with my ESE husband:

    "I such a one, am here because, and you?"

    I said those exact words. It was....magic.
    But you're ... you're not ... you're not LII.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    But you're ... you're not ... you're not LII.
    maybe I tricked him into thinking I was.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    maybe I tricked him into thinking I was.
    Well, with that line - obviously.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    *takes notes* I'm not very confident this is going to truly help with my to do list I just sound crazy to myself right now. What was your tone of voice?!

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    I am me, and you are you; and you and me make three.

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