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Thread: Where the Myth of "Fake Fe" Came From

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Where the Myth of "Fake Fe" Came From

    Fe deals with the emotional atmosphere. Then this shitty misconception about how Fe ego types propel fake emotions came along.

    Fe types don't deal with fake emotions. What they deal with is real emotions. Why they're referred to as "fake" by non-Fe valuing quadras is because to the Fe devaluers, even attempting to preserve the "emotional atmosphere" is a superficial thing to do. It's not that the emotion itself is fake, but that what is going on can be perceived as being something which is entirely unnecessary. And to a Fe devaluer - a Gamma, for example - of course it's fake, because they don't like upholding emotional atmosphere for the sake of harmony in said atmosphere.

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    well i think many times an Fe person is perceived as fake because the observer thinks that the Fe is meant to be Fi, which would mostly not be the case and thus "false" as a statement of Fi. and on the other side, Fe valuers perceive an Fi person's Fe as fake because they know that their Fe is not "true" Fe but their Fe can be used to "cover up" their Fi. They are measuring different things, and both types of Fx-ers can behave similarly but with different focii.

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    Heh yes, it can lead to unfortunate situations where Fe valuers see Fe devaluers as pompous inflated blowhards while the Fi valuers see the Fe valuers as slimy manipulative creeps.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    and on the other side, Fe valuers perceive an Fi person's Fe as fake because they know that their Fe is not "true" Fe but their Fe can be used to "cover up" their Fi.
    I can't agree with this bit I'm afraid. The rest I'm okay with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I can't agree with this bit I'm afraid. The rest I'm okay with.

    yeah i dont like the bit abuot "true" fe.. these are all elements of reality folks, but there will be devaluing according to quadra.

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    Well put, Ezra. Fe types deal with "fake emotions" on the same level that Te types deal with "fake facts."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Heh yes, it can lead to unfortunate situations where Fe valuers see Fe devaluers as pompous inflated blowhards while the Fi valuers see the Fe valuers as slimy manipulative creeps.
    Ya! For sure.
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    Well put, Ezra. We could have saved 10 pages of thread yesterday if you had said this then, lol.

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    I think newbies are also confused on something else, too.

    Fe is also not about asking people to smile when they don't want to. That is trying to control other people and is universally annoying. Telling people to 'smile, more' and smiling like some housewife teacher on crack isn't necessarily Fe. Basically that's more like, you don't know how to respond to somebody that is the 'quiet/thinker' type. (which depending on the quadra we all know can be very different underneath even if they look exactly the same.)

    Fe is a subtle underlying psychological function, that can manifest itself in lots of different ways. Fe isn't always soft and caring. It can also kick you in the nuts. Do you really want me to demonstrate?

    Oh and just a random sidenote: The best pr0n is and . Mmmm. Definitely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Oh and just a random sidenote: The best pr0n is and . Mmmm. Definitely.
    that's a given.

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    I think only Fe with Ni is considered fake. Because it does deal with fake emotions. Or better put, future emotions. Emotions whose purpose is to bring about a change in tomorrow. You act a certain way today so you would get something tomorrow. Or something along those lines. Types with Si only see the current state of the person, which contradict their emotional displays, so they see them as fake. As manipulators. At least that has been my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Fe deals with the emotional atmosphere. Then this shitty misconception about how Fe ego types propel fake emotions came along.

    Fe types don't deal with fake emotions. What they deal with is real emotions. Why they're referred to as "fake" by non-Fe valuing quadras is because to the Fe devaluers, even attempting to preserve the "emotional atmosphere" is a superficial thing to do. It's not that the emotion itself is fake, but that what is going on can be perceived as being something which is entirely unnecessary. And to a Fe devaluer - a Gamma, for example - of course it's fake, because they don't like upholding emotional atmosphere for the sake of harmony in said atmosphere.
    I agree with you; I will just nitpick and say that "harmony in said atmosphere" is just one manifestation of Fe. Another one is precisely a "hostile" atmosphere, which can look equally fake.

    And, as we discussed, I think that Tony Blair = fake Fe and David Cameron = true Fe
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    I think only Fe with Ni is considered fake. Because it does deal with fake emotions. Or better put, future emotions. Emotions whose purpose is to bring about a change in tomorrow. You act a certain way today so you would get something tomorrow. Or something along those lines. Types with Si only see the current state of the person, which contradict their emotional displays, so they see them as fake. As manipulators. At least that has been my experience.
    wtf?

    I'm sure that can often seem overwhelming and unnecessarily dramatic to -valuing types. I can imagine that Fi-valuing types either often cannot fathom why emotional display is called for given circumstances, judging by their own preferences for conservative feelings, or believe emotions are inappropriate given the relationship of person to person. (ie: "We are not that close, so you should not feel x at this point").

    Also... from my pov, sometimes feels restrained and measured. (ie: "This is your dose for now"). It can feel static, rigid and fixed. There's a distinct sense of boundary. Not necessarily fake, but rather carefully guarded and/or diffused. Feelings don't get "out of hand".
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    Argh. Fe is not necessarily an 'emotional display'. Fe is felt within an individual and most of the time never shown to the world at all.

    Fe is not about 'future emotions', that's just nonsense.
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    Yeah, I agree, sneglemeca's (or w/e) post was pretty silly; I just didn't have the energy to logically criticize it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Well put, Ezra. Fe types deal with "fake emotions" on the same level that Te types deal with "fake facts."
    +1.

    And I think I understand what snegled meant by "future emotions". Sometimes I do do that. I try to act positive when I feel crappy, hoping I might start to feel more positive from it. Sometimes it works. And if someone gives me a crappy present I will politely pretend I like it so I won't offend them, because I know they meant well and it will accomplish nothing to start complaining. Besides, sometimes my initial reaction is negative but I later change my mind. When I show emotions, I do sometimes think of the long-term consequences and I don't show some emotions, but I disagree that Fe with Ni is about "future emotions".
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    Some Fe type individuals are corrupt. Corrupt individuals think there are situations where they can feign fake forms of a function just to "get by". An Fi person may misrepresent their own feelings, whereas an Fe person may feign acceptance of something they deplore. For F to be truly corrupt, it must represent a deeper submission to misrepresentation than the situational: for example living a lifestyle of misrepresentation. Corruption is not itself misrepresentation however, but is an embrace of the alterego which may possess the trait of confidence in the meaningful deceit of others. (we're talking more than a white lie here, but rather deliberate misreprentation of one's own views and perspectives to make another person like you). It is the embrace of the alterego without restraint which makes corrupt F what it is. Manipulation may also be thrown into the mix when this happens, especially if the deceit is a function of manipulation.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Oh and just a random sidenote: The best pr0n is and . Mmmm. Definitely.
    I wasn't aware that there was any other kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    I think only Fe with Ni is considered fake. Because it does deal with fake emotions. Or better put, future emotions. Emotions whose purpose is to bring about a change in tomorrow. You act a certain way today so you would get something tomorrow. Or something along those lines. Types with Si only see the current state of the person, which contradict their emotional displays, so they see them as fake. As manipulators. At least that has been my experience.
    If nothing else, this would make me think you were Fe PoLR. It demonstrates complete lack of understanding of Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    And, as we discussed, I think that Tony Blair = fake Fe and David Cameron = true Fe
    Another thing I've observed from Cameron is a clear Beta aristocratic attitude which is clearly lacking in Blair.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    Also... from my pov, sometimes feels restrained and measured. (ie: "This is your dose for now"). It can feel static, rigid and fixed. There's a distinct sense of boundary. Not necessarily fake, but rather carefully guarded and/or diffused. Feelings don't get "out of hand".
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Argh. Fe is not necessarily an 'emotional display'. Fe is felt within an individual and most of the time never shown to the world at all.
    Of course, to a Fe creative individual, this is probably true. I've observed the same trait in a lot of IEIs. However, for an EIE, this is practically heresy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Some Fe type individuals are corrupt. Corrupt individuals think there are situations where they can feign fake forms of a function just to "get by". An Fi person may misrepresent their own feelings, whereas an Fe person may feign acceptance of something they deplore. For F to be truly corrupt, it must represent a deeper submission to misrepresentation than the situational: for example living a lifestyle of misrepresentation. Corruption is not itself misrepresentation however, but is an embrace of the alterego which may possess the trait of confidence in the meaningful deceit of others. (we're talking more than a white lie here, but rather deliberate misreprentation of one's own views and perspectives to make another person like you). It is the embrace of the alterego without restraint which makes corrupt F what it is. Manipulation may also be thrown into the mix when this happens, especially if the deceit is a function of manipulation.
    Some Te type individuals are corrupt. Some Se type individuals are corrupt. Some Ni type individuals are corrupt. Some Fi type individuals are corrupt. Some Ne type individuals are corrupt. Some Ti type individuals are corrupt. Some Si type individuals are corrupt. And yes, I agree that some Fe type individuals are corrupt.

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    Perhaps what I said was wrongly phrased. What I was trying to get at was that when Fe is combined with Ni it can appear fake as it has no immediate material representation.

    To go more in depth, my response was based on my father, who I consider to be a beta NF. When he responds to people, from an outside perspective, it seems as he is the biggest faker and manipulator ever. Because he focuses on getting the people into a certain mood so that he can accomplish something. And here lies my point. With a focus on Ni beta NF-s see where they are heading with their methods, with what they are doing. And sometimes the end justifies the means. So sometimes Fe blocked with Ni will see that there is a certain amount of saying the right things needed, even if they are lies, in order to get the person into a right mood, state of mind so that they can accomplish their Ni goal. However, from an outside perspective, and on top of that a perspective with no insight into the Ni of the beta NF, this seems like fake, manipulation. Especially if the Fe person, as they often do, does not care about factually consistency, relevance and gets carried away with their vision, promising castles in the sky from the point of the observer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    When I show emotions, I do sometimes think of the long-term consequences and I don't show some emotions
    That was what I was getting at. A calculating emotional response can appear as fake, as manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    If nothing else, this would make me think you were Fe PoLR. It demonstrates complete lack of understanding of Fe.
    I would like to know how.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post

    Of course, to a Fe creative individual, this is probably true. I've observed the same trait in a lot of IEIs. However, for an EIE, this is practically heresy.
    Not necessarily. EIE's are very adept at chosing what they show to the world. A very depressed EIE can seem ok to most people, unless they know them well, and only rarely let anybody else know they are in pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Perhaps what I said was wrongly phrased. What I was trying to get at was that when Fe is combined with Ni it can appear fake as it has no immediate material representation.

    To go more in depth, my response was based on my father, who I consider to be a beta NF. When he responds to people, from an outside perspective, it seems as he is the biggest faker and manipulator ever. Because he focuses on getting the people into a certain mood so that he can accomplish something. And here lies my point. With a focus on Ni beta NF-s see where they are heading with their methods, with what they are doing. And sometimes the end justifies the means. So sometimes Fe blocked with Ni will see that there is a certain amount of saying the right things needed, even if they are lies, in order to get the person into a right mood, state of mind so that they can accomplish their Ni goal. However, from an outside perspective, and on top of that a perspective with no insight into the Ni of the beta NF, this seems like fake, manipulation. Especially if the Fe person, as they often do, does not care about factually consistency, relevance and gets carried away with their vision, promising castles in the sky from the point of the observer.
    Hmm, if Beta NF your father sounds like a very unhealthy EIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    Perhaps what I said was wrongly phrased. What I was trying to get at was that when Fe is combined with Ni it can appear fake as it has no immediate material representation.
    This makes no fucking sense. How can emotional expression not take a material form? Unless you mean some cozy atmosphere bullshit, which is a stupid alpha stereotype anyway. Either way, I think you're over-estimating beta NF tactics; a lot of the time when I use Fe it very much is to make a direct, tangible impact - .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Hmm, if Beta NF your father sounds like a very unhealthy EIE.
    Not really. He's quite normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    This makes no fucking sense. How can emotional expression not take a material form?
    Fe is not just about emotional expression.

    Either way, I think you're over-estimating beta NF tactics; a lot of the time when I use Fe it very much is to make a direct, tangible impact - .
    Hmm, my father has never used it in such a fashion. It has always been with Ni. That is, with him it is clear that he is using Ni and Fe. He might use them to get Se, try to get others to make a direct tangible impact, but never uses Se himself.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post

    Also... from my pov, sometimes feels restrained and measured. (ie: "This is your dose for now"). It can feel static, rigid and fixed. There's a distinct sense of boundary. Not necessarily fake, but rather carefully guarded and/or diffused. Feelings don't get "out of hand".
    Yes! This is a perfect description of how I view Fi as well. This is why Fi can seem "fake" as well, just depends on what you value, obviously. I see Fe as actually extremely genuine, at least for me. When I feel something, no matter how weak, strong, etc. I will express it (usually to always) immediately because I just can't exactly "hold it in" that well otherwise I'd feel like I'm being fake.

    Imo, I think Fi-valuers hold their emotions in because they don't want to damage their static interpersonal relationships with others, and this can seem fake to Fe-valuers because they are not truly emoting what they feel AT THE MOMENT. Instead, they opt out to be (in THEIR opinion) wiser by controlling intense emotions so that the long-term relationship will not be affected. This to me is really beneficial for Fe-PoLRs because they are overwhelmed by excessive outward displays of emotion. They don't understand that it doesn't necessarily change the TRUE inner feelings of someone towards them -- they get scared by the intensity of the "present" emotion and feel like perhaps the entire relationship is ruined, or just have no idea where they stand anymore. This is why Fi-seekers need a more stable base, more stable emotions.

    I think Ti ego types realize that Fe is just an in the moment thing, and don't take it so much to heart as Fe de-valuers would.

    Also: I really liked how you said that Fi seems to have "boundaries" to you. I agree, that's how I perceive it as well. It's like they decide in their minds what is "proper" to show to any given person in any given relationship, and not really allow themselves to no-holds-barred express their inner state outwardly. I think this is the difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Argh. Fe is not necessarily an 'emotional display'. Fe is felt within an individual and most of the time never shown to the world at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Of course, to a Fe creative individual, this is probably true. I've observed the same trait in a lot of IEIs. However, for an EIE, this is practically heresy.
    Well, Ezra is right. The IEIs I've known MIGHT agree with Wittmont's statement since they are Fe creative and are more selective about when to "use" their external expressions but EIEs (and I) would not. We are dominant Fe and therefore, it's just a way of life for us -- so much so that it's much harder to "use" in a tactical way. Instead, it usually just drips out of us no matter what we try to do to hide it.

    I actually don't understand why you said that, Wittmont? Fe is never shown to the world most of the time? Err... really? =/ Then what is Fe?


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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Perhaps what I said was wrongly phrased. What I was trying to get at was that when Fe is combined with Ni it can appear fake as it has no immediate material representation.

    To go more in depth, my response was based on my father, who I consider to be a beta NF. When he responds to people, from an outside perspective, it seems as he is the biggest faker and manipulator ever. Because he focuses on getting the people into a certain mood so that he can accomplish something. And here lies my point. With a focus on Ni beta NF-s see where they are heading with their methods, with what they are doing. And sometimes the end justifies the means. So sometimes Fe blocked with Ni will see that there is a certain amount of saying the right things needed, even if they are lies, in order to get the person into a right mood, state of mind so that they can accomplish their Ni goal. However, from an outside perspective, and on top of that a perspective with no insight into the Ni of the beta NF, this seems like fake, manipulation. Especially if the Fe person, as they often do, does not care about factually consistency, relevance and gets carried away with their vision, promising castles in the sky from the point of the observer.
    Different topic, then. This isn't really what I was referring to. However, it is an interesting theory.

    That was what I was getting at. A calculating emotional response can appear as fake, as manipulation.
    In that case, I sort of see where you're coming from, but I fail to understand the link between your original argument and this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Not necessarily. EIE's are very adept at chosing what they show to the world. A very depressed EIE can seem ok to most people, unless they know them well, and only rarely let anybody else know they are in pain.
    True. A Fe adept individual has (almost) complete control over their emotions. A Fe inept individual would be far more likely to lose control and lash out at someone, as they have poor control over their emotions in comparison with a Fe adept individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think you're over-estimating beta NF tactics; a lot of the time when I use Fe it very much is to make a direct, tangible impact - .
    No. That would be the type, which doesn't exist. I don't use Se in conjunction with Fe, I use it in conjunction with Ti.

    Honestly, strrrng, have you ever considered Beta extrovert for yourself? You appear to be extremely preoccupied with Se, and seem to have an understanding of the basic principles (not just a socionics understand but an instinctive understanding) and usage of Se, like no IEI would. IEIs aren't confident in Se. Either you're Se HA or Se ego or... I'm wrong and this is a bad idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    True. A Fe adept individual has (almost) complete control over their emotions. A Fe inept individual would be far more likely to lose control and lash out at someone, as they have poor control over their emotions in comparison with a Fe adept individual.
    I'm not sure that I have "control" over my emotions persay, I think I'm just more "in touch" with how I really feel inside and how exactly to SHOW that to the world. Fe inept individuals as you put it, might be more likely to not TRUST or not KNOW how to express inner sentiments to the world?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    Imo, I think Fi-valuers hold their emotions in because they don't want to damage their static interpersonal relationships with others, and this can seem fake to Fe-valuers because they are not truly emoting what they feel AT THE MOMENT. Instead, they opt out to be (in THEIR opinion) wiser by controlling intense emotions so that the long-term relationship will not be affected. This to me is really beneficial for Fe-PoLRs because they are overwhelmed by excessive outward displays of emotion. They don't understand that it doesn't necessarily change the TRUE inner feelings of someone towards them -- they get scared by the intensity of the "present" emotion and feel like perhaps the entire relationship is ruined, or just have no idea where they stand anymore. This is why Fi-seekers need a more stable base, more stable emotions.
    Great analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    I'm not sure that I have "control" over my emotions persay, I think I'm just more "in touch" with how I really feel inside and how exactly to SHOW that to the world. Fe inept individuals as you put it, might be more likely to not TRUST or not KNOW how to express inner sentiments to the world?
    Maybe, yeah. But do you really not have control over your emotions? Can you not hold back how you're feeling if you don't want to show others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Maybe, yeah. But do you really not have control over your emotions? Can you not hold back how you're feeling if you don't want to show others?
    Well, I suppose I do, yes. I believe I was rather thinking of the fact that around my trusted ones and those I'm comfortable with, I really dislike having to "hold in" anything for the sake of preserving whatever it is we have. I just like emotions to be naturally expressed, all the time. This is why I am iffy about the word "control" because it implies a sort of emotional manipulation that I don't care to associate with Fe. I dunno.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    No. That would be the type, which doesn't exist. I don't use Se in conjunction with Fe, I use it in conjunction with Ti.
    I was referring to the way Fe is expressed in betas, to shed light on snegledmaca's notion that beta Fe is like some invisible force that is only geared towards the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Honestly, strrrng, have you ever considered Beta extrovert for yourself? You appear to be extremely preoccupied with Se, and seem to have an understanding of the basic principles (not just a socionics understand but an instinctive understanding) and usage of Se, like no IEI would. IEIs aren't confident in Se. Either you're Se HA or Se ego or... I'm wrong and this is a bad idea.
    Fe isn't my base - I know that. How do you mean, I have an instinctive understanding? Could this have been influenced by my experience with martial arts, maybe? Are you sure IEI's aren't confident in it? If so, maybe I am some Se go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Maybe, yeah. But do you really not have control over your emotions? Can you not hold back how you're feeling if you don't want to show others?
    I'm really quite terrible at holding my feelings in. Others have told me that I basically radiate whatever I'm feeling, be it joyful or abysmal. Trying to control my natural state usually feels stifling and "false". I'm moody, what can I say...?

    When I'm in a bad mood, there might as well be a small dark cloud hovering above my head, no matter how hard I might try to hold back from afflicting others with my pernicious emotional states.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    True. A Fe adept individual has (almost) complete control over their emotions. A Fe inept individual would be far more likely to lose control and lash out at someone, as they have poor control over their emotions in comparison with a Fe adept individual.
    Right. This is why the Fe base people can be classified as "emotional khamelions." Such control over Fe enables one to be confident in expressing sentiments, yes; but it also enables them to control their expression, and thus, pick and choose reactions to benefit them the most in a given situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett
    I'm not sure that I have "control" over my emotions persay, I think I'm just more "in touch" with how I really feel inside and how exactly to SHOW that to the world. Fe inept individuals as you put it, might be more likely to not TRUST or not KNOW how to express inner sentiments to the world?
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett
    Well, I suppose I do, yes. I believe I was rather thinking of the fact that around my trusted ones and those I'm comfortable with, I really dislike having to "hold in" anything for the sake of preserving whatever it is we have. I just like emotions to be naturally expressed, all the time. This is why I am iffy about the word "control" because it implies a sort of emotional manipulation that I don't care to associate with Fe. I dunno.
    Well, you're just a benevolent person. There are Fe ego types out there (Jadae) who use such functions for manipulative ends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    Imo, I think Fi-valuers hold their emotions in because they don't want to damage their static interpersonal relationships with others, and this can seem fake to Fe-valuers because they are not truly emoting what they feel AT THE MOMENT. Instead, they opt out to be (in THEIR opinion) wiser by controlling intense emotions so that the long-term relationship will not be affected. This to me is really beneficial for Fe-PoLRs because they are overwhelmed by excessive outward displays of emotion. They don't understand that it doesn't necessarily change the TRUE inner feelings of someone towards them -- they get scared by the intensity of the "present" emotion and feel like perhaps the entire relationship is ruined, or just have no idea where they stand anymore. This is why Fi-seekers need a more stable base, more stable emotions.
    That is very good, except it's still too much from a viewpoint as it gives the impression (to me at least) that Fi-valuers are somehow all the time "repressing" their intensive emotions. That is not the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That is very good, except it's still too much from a viewpoint as it gives the impression (to me at least) that Fi-valuers are somehow all the time "repressing" their intensive emotions. That is not the case.
    How is that different from the misconceptions that arise from -valuing perceptions of ? From an -valuing perspective, that is how -valuing comes across. They never seem terribly verbal about what they are feeling, and so they are constantly leaving you in the emotional dark as to their feelings and their current emotional states. If these immediate concerns of are not addressed over a long time, it can prove dreadfully damaging to the long-term .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    How is that different from the misconceptions that arise from -valuing perceptions of ?
    Maybe it's not different at all. Not everything I say about is a put-down, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    From an -valuing perspective, that is how -valuing comes across. They never seem terribly verbal about what they are feeling, and so they are constantly leaving you in the emotional dark as to their feelings and their current emotional states. If these immediate concerns of are not addressed over a long time, it can prove dreadfully damaging to the long-term .
    I can understand that better than you perhaps imagine. I think that's precisely how my ESE ex would have described what was bothering her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Maybe it's not different at all. Not everything I say about is a put-down, you know.
    I'm not taking it as such. I was pointing to a parallel in misconceptions and differences of perception of the matter from different Fx perspectives. Weaknesses of one are viewed as strengths for the other, and these strengths and weaknesses are often rationalized away by its valuers.

    I can understand that better than you perhaps imagine. I think that's precisely how my ESE ex would have described what was bothering her.
    Interesting. I just imagine that it is the accumulation of positive or negative in relation to people and objects that affects the strength of . So I see addressing concerns as addressing ones at the root of the problem. is like a siren or a computer pop-up that can alert you that a potential problem may even exist in the first place.
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    I've found that the main difference between how and operate is that Fi imposes a set of premises, or a system, whereas Fe works backwards from actions/effects. Too many times has my ENFp dad observed me and then made a claim about what my inner state 'must' be. Like wtf?? I can literally see his Fi ascribing causes to my behavior without as much attention to the specific situation (similar to how a Te valuer would perceive a Ti valuer as imposing some system/structure on a given idea). Fe, on the other hand, tends to remain focused on the specific situation, tracking underlying dynamics of the person's behavior, and then inducing what their state/motive is. A matter of top-down vs. bottom-up, imo.
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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    I'm really quite terrible at holding my feelings in. Others have told me that I basically radiate whatever I'm feeling, be it joyful or abysmal. Trying to control my natural state usually feels stifling and "false". I'm moody, what can I say...?

    When I'm in a bad mood, there might as well be a small dark cloud hovering above my head, no matter how hard I might try to hold back from afflicting others with my pernicious emotional states.
    *Nods in agreement*

    I wonder if this is true for all Fe Ego types - the fact that they feel "false" if they do not express/"radiate" their inner emotions outward whenever they feel it in the moment.

    Most of the time, when I am happy, I will use my Fe to affect the moods of others around me, likely to cheer them up and increase the inner happiness that I already feel. Never will I actually use that tactic if I am truly feeling bad inside. This is what some people who misunderstand Fe think about us Fe Ego types -- that we will actually sacrifice our inner feelings to preserve an emotional atmosphere. Nope, no way, no how.


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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    How is that different from the misconceptions that arise from -valuing perceptions of ? From an -valuing perspective, that is how -valuing comes across. They never seem terribly verbal about what they are feeling, and so they are constantly leaving you in the emotional dark as to their feelings and their current emotional states. If these immediate concerns of are not addressed over a long time, it can prove dreadfully damaging to the long-term .
    Yes. I know my post WAS from an Fe standpoint... er, how could it not be? I don't see anything wrong with Fi valuers either -- It's just not the way I personally go about things as it is highly unnatural for me. For them, I suppose it is much more comfortable and necessary. That's just the difference. Also, I agree with the bolded part a LOT -- that's definitely how I see things. That's why it would worry me so much if immediate Fe was not expressed/addressed. It, imo, would damage the long-term Fi, instead of preserving it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    Yes. I know my post WAS from an Fe standpoint... er, how could it not be? I don't see anything wrong with Fi valuers either -- It's just not the way I personally go about things as it is highly unnatural for me. For them, I suppose it is much more comfortable and necessary. That's just the difference. Also, I agree with the bolded part a LOT -- that's definitely how I see things. That's why it would worry me so much if immediate Fe was not expressed/addressed. It, imo, would damage the long-term Fi, instead of preserving it.
    Yes, I strongly agree with Logos and Scarlett's thoughts here. If there is a 'disturbance in the force' it usually means a problem is imminent. You are right on the money here with your thoughts about Fe in general Scarlett

    Not sure about the Fe ego type thing as I fall into the poker face group, unless I get truly pissed off then o'boy, but there definitely seems to be those that don't hide their feelings at all

    Personally I have strong Fi as well, and I can see where Fi valuers come from very well. But sometimes it baffles me and I get stumped when Fi valuers in Gamma and Delta do not value Fe.
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