Alan Moore

[Expat]

Noted comic book author; wrote Watchmen, among others.

I think his type is obvious.

[Logos]

I think a number of his works have a Beta quality to them (V for Vendetta, Watchmen).

[Expat]

Apparently nobody cares about Alan Moore. Oh well.

I think he's a clear ILI.

[Logos]

I saw IEI.

[Mea]

eh, i think ILI

[ScarlettLux]

Hahahah, oh man. That's like Niffweed in 20 years.

[Phaedrus]

ILI seems very plausible, but I know zero about him as a person.

[Robot]

Hahahah, oh man. That's like Niffweed in 20 years.

Totally. Shaving and hair cuts are anti-ILI.

[discojoe]

I think he's INTp.

If you haven't read Watchmen yet, do so. It's incredible.

[Logos]

Do you think there is any reason then as to why most of the works that he has written seem predominately Beta?

[discojoe]

Do you think there is any reason then as to why most of the works that he has written seem predominately Beta?

He likes Betas.

[Expat]

Do you think there is any reason then as to why most of the works that he has written seem predominately Beta?

I understand what you say, but I disagree.

I missed V for Vendetta for some reason.

I am familiar with

Watchmen
Miracleman
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen

I think his early work, Miracleman is clearly written from a Gamma PoV, and the Beta aspects are actually a sort of "Gamma criticism".

I mention it because I think that's his take on Watchmen and League as well, but less obviously.

[Logos]

I disagree as well and see his work (Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Swamp Thing) as being from a Beta perspective. His works are often driven by a sense of + ideology.

[Expat]

What ideology do you see in Watchmen ?

[Logos]

Primarily a question of utilitarianism and whether or not the ends justify the means.

[Expat]

As in "end justifies the means", are you assuming that he agrees with Ozymandias?

[Logos]

I do not think that Alan Moore does, judging by the parallel with the Black Freighter side story, and I happen to think that Ozymandias is an LIE.

[Expat]

Now I'm curious. Could you spell it out for me precisely where you see Moore as having a Beta perspective in Watchmen?

[Logos]

Watchmen was a criticism of the dangers of certain Gamma behaviors and convictions. The style of Watchmen is seems closer to a Se/Ni grit of storyline that is highly similar to that of Frank Miller (also Beta). Watchmen did not reflect any Delta or Alpha ideology or values though they were present in some of the characters.

[Expat]

Watchmen was a criticism of the dangers of certain Gamma behaviors and convictions.

Can't a Gamma criticise Gamma behaviors and convictions?

[Logos]

Can't a Gamma criticise Gamma behaviors and convictions?

Can't a Beta?

[Expat]

Can't a Beta?

Of course, but it seemed to me that you were using the "criticism of Gamma" as an argument for Beta. I don't think that's necessarily the case; I also think that Moore's "hidden sympathies", to the extent that they are visible, are with the Gamma and Delta characters.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Expat]

Of those I've only seen League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which I liked a lot, and V for Vendetta which I liked less but was still okay.

You mean the movies? I never saw either of them. He wrote the original graphic novels.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[discojoe]

V For Vendetta was altered a great deal for the movie.

[Expat]

In Watchmen, my impression is that the character for which Moore has the most sympathy is the original Nite Owl, Hollis Mason, who's a clear LSE; it could be argued that it was the way an ILI would see the supervisee, LSE. The same goes for the new Nite Owl, to a lesser degree.

I think that both Ozymandias and Rorschach are Gammas, LIE and ESI, both showing the Gamma "danger"; however, Ozymandias has quite a bit of EIE to him, as well. LIE-Ni if you will.

It is indeed a criticism of Gamma, but from the "inside".

I don't see any sympathy for Osterman/Dr. Manhattan. He seems like a sort of contemptuous look at Alpha.

[Expat]

Also on Watchmen --

[discojoe]

Some people might say that Rorschach is Ti over Fi.

[Expat]

Some people might say that Rorschach is Ti over Fi.

Yes, but I don't think so. There is a lot of Fi in him. His sense of connection to the other heros, which makes him warn them all; the incident that made him go nuts in the first place; his occasional "softening" by individual circumstances; and, in fact, I would say that his worldview was precisely about the lack of Ti.

[discojoe]

Yes, but I don't think so. There is a lot of Fi in him. His sense of connection to the other heros, which makes him warn them all; the incident that made him go nuts in the first place; his occasional "softening" by individual circumstances; and, in fact, I would say that his worldview was precisely about the lack of Ti.

I'm glad you think the coolest character is ESI.

Also, what do you think about Dr Manhattan's actions (Mars, etc.) at the end of the book, as far as his character being "a contemptuous look at Alpha" goes? Was this, in terms of Socionics, Moore's way of striking a compromise between Alpha and Gamma?

I don't really remember a lot of the specifics in the story, since I read it about 6 years ago. I do remember having to change my pants afterward, though.

[Expat]

Also, what do you think about Dr Manhattan's actions (Mars, etc.) at the end of the book, as far as his character being "a contemptuous look at Alpha" goes? Was this, in terms of Socionics, Moore's way of striking a compromise between Alpha and Gamma?

I don't think there is any compromise. Dr Manhattan is relevant only as a plot tool, and because of his power. His character is all about "pointless" Ne and Ti, with Fe seeking, and not much Fi; besides no focus on Se. He takes decisions with base on Ne and Ti, while Rorschach does with base on Se and Fi. He is all about Ne-Si; both his "Ni" and "Se" are a consequence of his power.

[discojoe]

I don't think there is any compromise. Dr Manhattan is relevant only as a plot tool, and because of his power. His character is all about "pointless" Ne and Ti, with Fe seeking, and not much Fi; besides no focus on Se. He takes decisions with base on Ne and Ti, while Rorschach does with base on Se and Fi. He is all about Ne-Si; both his "Ni" and "Se" are a consequence of his power.

But doesn't Manhattan kind of... win in the end? I seem to remember him having a kind of revelation about beauty and then saving the world, or something like that.

[Expat]

But doesn't Manhattan kind of... win in the end? I seem to remember him having a kind of revelation about beauty and then saving the world, or something like that.

Yes but, again, from the point of view of the plot, I think he's just a plot tool, useful due to his power. His "revelation" was rather fickle, and self-indulgent. Actually his intervention had no effect on Ozymandias's plan whatsoever. He was the true winner.

[discojoe]

I don't know. I remember being more put-off by Rorschach's moral absoluteness than I was by Manhattan's aloofness. Manhattan seemed benevolent, though pathetic, but Rorschach seemed like an unstable loose cannon.

[Expat]

benevolent, though pathetic,

Biased view of Alpha from Gamma perspective.

but Rorschach seemed like an unstable loose cannon.

Gamma Se out of control.

[Expat]

By the way, "benevolent, though pathetic" could also be said to apply to the two Delta characters, the two Nite Owls.

[discojoe]

Biased view of Alpha from Gamma perspective.



Gamma Se out of control.

OK, but I'm just saying, I found Rorschach to be a more -- how can I put this? -- dysfunctional than Manhattan.

I will say one thing, though: I would have sided with Rorschach at the end.

[Expat]

I will say one thing, though: I would have sided with Rorschach at the end.

And so would, one suspects, Moore.

Especially if you recall the scene with the guy at the newspaper finding his diary.

[discojoe]

And so would, one suspects, Moore.

Especially if you recall the scene with the guy at the newspaper finding his diary.

I don't remember.