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Thread: ESE-ILI conflict relations (ESFjs & INTps)

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    Default ESE-ILI conflict relations (ESFjs & INTps)

    I've had a couple of circumstances where I've seen people of these types have problems, and it's just awful.

    I have a circle of friends - all moms - who met mainly through La Leche League, but also who were pulled in from other places. There is an INTp in this group who is kind of the odd woman out. She feels out of place and unhappy there, and hasn't been showing up to a lot of things, and I've finally figured it out. There are two women who have kind of taken over getting activities together and what-not, and they're both ESFj. They are great at getting us to all do things and have fun, but they don't like this INTp. She wasn't at a get-together the other day, and they were just digging into her about how she was anti-social and she was turning her daughter into a recluse. Her daughter is uncomfortable playing with the other kids and prefers to stay close to her mom, and these ESFjs think it's because of the INTp. That she doesn't "participate" (and by that they don't mean just show up) and therefore her daughter doesn't either.

    I found myself needing to defend this poor INTp and I felt awful. I really like these two ESFjs and they aren't naturally mean people, but it just felt so bad. I'm not sure how to handle this. All the people involved are good people.

    Does anyone have experience with these two types and their dealings? I don't think it's fair that this INTp should be left out but I'm not sure how to get her to feel more comfortable, or if it's even possible.
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    This is precisely why human beings shouldn't procreate.

    What does the INTp want exactly?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    The INTp should not spend too much time with those ESFjs. It's not good for any of them. It's better if they avoid each other.

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    Tell the ESFJs that it's counterproductive (for the child's benefit) to exclude the INTP woman. If they want justice to be served- i.e. helping the child- they shouldn't be isolating the mom.
    Tell the INTP that you understand where she's coming from; the ESFJs mean well, they just don't understand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Tell the ESFJs that it's counterproductive (for the child's benefit) to exclude the INTP woman. If they want justice to be served- i.e. helping the child- they shouldn't be isolating the mom.
    Tell the INTP that you understand where she's coming from; the ESFJs mean well, they just don't understand.
    And they will never understand. The ESFjs will never understand the INTp. Keep them away from each other. You are not helping the child by forcing it to be social with ESFjs.

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    Keep the ESFJ's away from interacting with the INTP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Tell the ESFJs that it's counterproductive (for the child's benefit) to exclude the INTP woman. If they want justice to be served- i.e. helping the child- they shouldn't be isolating the mom.
    Tell the INTP that you understand where she's coming from; the ESFJs mean well, they just don't understand.
    That's not the point. The way I understand what Slacker Mom said, the ESFjs are not excluding the INTp on purpose; on the contrary, they resent what they see as the lack of emotional engagement on the INTp's part. And they think that it is the INTp's own lack of emotional engagement that is acting as a sort of "bad influence" on the INTp's kid. So, if she'd say that to the ESFjs, they would just shrug and say that if the INTp would "participate" more, so would the kid. Who may also be another low-Fe type. Apart from teaching socionics to the ESFjs (what I would not advise at all), I don't know that anything can be done. They are not going to change their minds. If their own children find it easy to interact with other children, there is no way to get into their heads that it's not the INTp's fault.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That's not the point. The way I understand what Slacker Mom said, the ESFjs are not excluding the INTp on purpose; on the contrary, they resent what they see as the lack of emotional engagement on the INTp's part. And they think that it is the INTp's own lack of emotional engagement that is acting as a sort of "bad influence" on the INTp's kid. So, if she'd say that to the ESFjs, they would just shrug and say that if the INTp would "participate" more, so would the kid. Who may also be another low-Fe type. Apart from teaching socionics to the ESFjs (what I would not advise at all), I don't know that anything can be done. They are not going to change their minds. If their own children find it easy to interact with other children, there is no way to get into their heads that it's not the INTp's fault.
    Yeah I understood that about the ESFJs perception of the INTP. I thought that from SlackerMom's description it sounded like the ESFJs weren't just upset at what they perceived to be the INTPs self-isolating behavior, but that the ESFJs, themselves, were beginning to consciously isolate the INTP from the group (e.g., talking about her behind her back). I agree that you can't really explain the INTP POV to the ESFJ- I've tried this myself to no avail.
    I'm not really sure what the exact events were with this group, so you may be right.
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    actually, i'm thinking that how i interpreted SlackerMom's description could be with an Fi lens, so I need to clarify some thing about Fe...
    In my mind, if the ESFJs are going "COME JOIN THE FUN, INTP!!!!" and the INTP is running away, then it is the INTP who is isolating herself. But if the ESFJs are saying to the INTP (or to other people about her) "Why do you act like that? That is the wrong way to behave," etc., then the ESFJs are doing the isolating because being intolerant/judgemental of other people causes you to isolate them. But maybe that last part of my sentence is an Fi sentiment?
    Do Fe ego types not think it's isolating to judge people?
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    I can say that my own ESFj mother would, at an earlier stage in her life, have acted exactly the same as the ESFjs Slacker Mom mentioned. She took for granted that any perceived flaw in a child's behavior was the mother's fault. Much later - I mean decades later - after seeing many of the children she knew become adults, she said that now she understood that each child is different and they can't be changed; she can see in the adults the same characteristics she saw in them as children. She also said "well, how I was supposed to know that? I was clueless". She even said, "perhaps that's the main role of grandparents; to prevent the parents from being too stupid".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    on the intp's kid hanging by mom. i've seen kids do this when the mom isn't part of the group. kids sense these things and hang with the mom. almost like the other kids know this too, and subtly also exclude the intp's kid. don't know if that's going on here or anything, since SM didn't comment on the relations between all the kids, but i have definitely seen this happen.

    i think it's also the double-teaming that's affecting the intp...what with two esfj's....what's she supposed to do about that? if it were just one esfj, then the esfj would have less power and influence and intp might feel more comfortable at least connecting with other members of the group. i really don't blame her for not wanting to join in.

    i hate it when people publicly comment on my parenting like the esfj's are doing. i think SM is right that they don't appreciate intp's rejection of their Fe and since they find support in one another, are using this to feel better.

    i suppose one thing that could be done is for SM to simply try hanging with the intp and kind of bring her in gradually. i don't see any point in confronting the esfj's, unless it's in the moment...."look you guys, you make her feel like she wants to go off into a corner...." or something like that.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Well I did tell the ESFjs when they were commenting on the INTp's parenting that I didn't think the girl's shyness had anything to do with the INTp - that she's just shy and maybe shyness is inherited but that would be about it. I felt like I had to say something in support of the INTp to put a stop to that conversation.

    I might just start doing things away from this group with the INTp. I don't know. This little girl is really just shy - it isn't just with this specific group. She's just very slow to open up with people. But I've seen other kids who were shy like that and they've had a variety of parents. The INTp is probably more relaxed about her daughter's shyness than an ESFj would be if she had a child who was so shy. That was the complaint of the ESFjs too - they would force their child to have fun with the other kids if they had a child who was shy. To which, I said, "How do you force someone to have fun?"

    Anyway, at least they probably won't talk about her in front of me anymore. I think I was pretty diplomatic - they were still very friendly with me after I said something. It's just too bad. The INTp and I were two of the people who had been hanging out the longest. These ESFjs are kind of newcomers - one has younger kids and the other one moved into the area fairly recently. So the INTp was comfortable with the group until they took over, and she's probably resentful of that. But on the other hand, the group as a whole is very happy with these ESFjs arranging everything. And, honestly, I am too except for the effect it's having on the INTp.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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