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    I want to branch the discussion from this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=20304 to start a tangential discussion about what is being discussed in consentingadult's post regarding his perception of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Well, I think it's difficult to explain why I don't perceive you as an IEE, because I very much think I use Ne in order to arrive at the conclusion, and Ne is a perceiving function, not a judging function, but lets give it a try anyway:

    First we'll start with Ne, although you didn't ask about it. What is Ne? It is about perceiving connections between thing and the perception of possibilities. We must remind ourselves that the use of Ne is not unique to ILE's and IEE's, all types use Ne to some extent. What sets leading and creative Ne apart from other styles of Ne, is that more often than not, leading and creative Ne perceives connections between things and possibilities CORRECTLY, i.e. other types do Ne too, but arrive at wrong conclusions more often, or they tend to see a connection between things THAT ARE NOT THERE. And that is what I see you doing very frequently, but nowhere was it so obvious as that page you started a while ago on the wiki in which you gave examples of your own life and how well these related to things written in Rick's extended type description. When I was going over that account, at pretty much each example I thought to myself "No Tereg, you are seeing a connection that is not there! You are reading it in a Forer effect style."

    Now I can't go over all things stated in that thread, because I can't give arguments why you are wrong. This is the nature of Ne: to perceive something and know intuitively if it is correct or not. The connections you created, are imho, wildly imaginative.
    This begs an important question to myself: When I draw comparisons or make connections between things (which I believe I have done several times on this forum, not just in the wiki article -- think how many times I've said "This reminds me of..."), is it contrived in such a way that I'm just exercising a some internal desire to where it appears I might be consciously trying to overexert myself to find connections between things? How accurate am I when I draw my comparisons in the sense of not bending or not manipulating what I see to fit around what I perceive? How objective am I with these comparisons?

    I would be extremely worried if I were using or seeing connections like grasping for straws -- trying to see something that's not there. This is not something new that someone has brought up, so this is quite troubling. I can clearly remember my dad correcting me when I would arrive at similarly-drawn conclusions and being chastised for it. Could it be that I've just been good enough here on the forums to draw conclusions in such a way that simultaneously I've sort of consciously held myself back from reaching unacceptable conclusions so as to reach and draw "safe" conclusions and appearing to others competent in these manners so as to suggest dominance?

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Then how does Ne manifest itself in you? Well, I don't know you personally, but you seem to use Ne in a way I've come to know from leading Si types (clearly, you do value Ne), and particularly SEI's. Normally, Ne as a suggestive function is a privately used function, however, when leading Si types come into contact with leading Ne types, they let their restraint go and start using their Ne socially.
    I find this to be an interesting point. If I am reading this correctly this is suggesting that my is let loose more naturally and openly in a social arenas (such as the forum, Stickam, or face-to-face diaglogue) if faced with leading types. So, I guess the question that would need to be asked is: When I am using in the social arena with non- leading types, does it come across differently? Is the suggestion then that non- leading, or even non- valuing types find my comparisons and conclusions a bit awkward and contrived? Say, Gamma. What are the characteristics of a Gamma receiving suggestive information? What do the Gammas here think, then, of conclusions and comparisons that I draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Now on Ti: from my perspective, many of your posts are about explaining things into a 'system'. IEE's, contrary to ILE's, do not advertise their 'systems' as loudly as you do, unless they are absolutely positive that they are right about them. Ti PoLR is a privately used function. Ti mobilizing, however, although weak in quality, can manifest itself strongly in quantity. All types use Ti to some extent, so you and I, whatever our types, do too. But similar to what I said an Ne, it's leading and creative Ti types that are more likely to arrive at correct systems (within the framework of their knowledge), where other types are less likely to come up with correct systems (even though their framework of knowledge is big enough to arrive at correct systems, so it's not the lack of knowledge that would be causing the incorrect systems). Your systems are, imho, very entertaining and cute, but they are simply not realistic.
    So, I guess, again, I need to ask other here: Have the systems I have drawn for myself appeared too contrived or unrealistic for myself? What then is the difference between the Delta NF idealism and vision, and your perception of the systems I create for myself? Is it the case for me, in your view, that my maturity level and "framework of knowledge" is such that I can sort of mask this to others and arrive at realistic systems some of the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Functions do not exist in a vacuum, and we have to look at the relationship between Ne and Ti too. I think the way you use your super-ego block points out to ILE seeking.

    Finally on Fe: I don't have a good argument for this, I can only say you seem to be a good natured guy, the style of your posts reminds me of the good naturedness of SEI's (as opposed to the manipulative emotionality of IEI's). Futhermore, there is an absence of Fi-style dramatism.
    Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I quite understand how you perceive in its totality, or perceive dramatism. I don't want to think that you see dramatism simply as corresponding to

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Well, all 'n' all not a very good argument, but it's the best I can do. Once more: I don't know you personally, but based on your contributions to this forum, I would say SEI. An SEI who behaves like he's in contact with leading Ne types.

    There is a thing I'd like to ask: a while ago you wrote somewhere in a thread (which I can't find) something to the effect that you were frustrated about people not understanding some things that are hard to handle for you. I'm not sure, but if I recall correctly, it was your manager in a hamburger restaurant, but I might have mixed this up. Do you know what posts I'm talking about and where I can find it?
    Hmm. This might actually be several things. Frustrated about people not understanding some things that were hard for me to handle. Oh you mean like I was struggling with something, didn't know how to deal with it, another person would try to console me, but they didn't quite understand how to help me (even though the genuinely wanted to help)? I wonder if you're referring to when I was working as a shift manager at Pizza Hut and feeling overwhelmed when things were out of control and out of my control and nothing anyone could say could lift me out of it because I felt like I still had failed or let the store down. Something like this? If not, in the more general sense as you have put it in the post, that can be literally dozens of other similar situations I've found myself in that I could also describe for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    P.S.: as for the self-typing of other IEE's, I'm not convinced all self-acclaimed IEE's here are. In particular, I would like to stick to the people I've mentioned, because I have seen enough of them and all they have said was not only in agreement with what I consider to be IEE, but also there is a lack of things contradicting the IEE typing. They are in sync. Of all other self-acclaimed IEE's, I can only say that I have not seen very much that confirms they are IEE, but I have not seen anything that contradicts it either, so I'm taking a neutral stand on them. But not with Tereg: I do not see the IEE confirmed in him, but I do see it contradicted. Furthermore, I seen many people in real life taking an MBTI test and arriving at IEE, because that is how they saw themselves, not what they really were. My own girl friend (SEI) was an example of that: When I explained MBTI to her, she thought she was ENFP, but later she came out of Rick's test as ESE (well, she is a very social SEI).
    fwiw, the last time I took the MBTI, I tested ISFJ. But that was about 4 or 5 years ago, and, I'm not honestly sure how accurate that was. But, I can say that I have never tested ENFP on the MBTI in my lifetime.
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    tereg,

    for one, that was a lot to read at once, for me anyway, at this time. but, the main thing that popped into my head is that i see you making great connections when they have nothing to do with you. like seeing how much blaze resembled lynda carter. brilliant.

    but when you make connections between something else and YOURSELF, yes, i believe it gets very subjective and a bit blurry, especially for others to see. it makes sense to YOU but it may not make sense "outwardly."

    i don't know what that means according to type. especially because it struck me as very personal when i read it. i do the same damn thing. i am very objective when making connections OUTSIDE of myself, even with others, but not when making connections between myself and something outside of me.

    i'll be curious as to what others might say. and i love and appreciate your candor and willingness to openly examine what might be going on inside yourself this way.

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    The very nature of your reply is more proof to me that you aren't leading Ne, and confirms once more that you are a leading Si type. Why? It reminds me of the constant questioning of SEI's, and it makes me feel tired (no offense), because you seek a Ti-style answer and I'm better at Te-style answers. Furthermore, I do not think a leading Ne types will be asking so many questions about their own type, as they are know-it-all-windbags

    On top of that, you're writing style is making things very blurry for me, in fact, it is almost making me dizzy. I have a hard time following you, and if you are IEE, you're the first leading Ne type that I have a hard time following.

    Anyway, let me answer your questions to the best of my ability, perhaps others can elaborate on them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    This begs an important question to myself: When I draw comparisons or make connections between things (which I believe I have done several times on this forum, not just in the wiki article -- think how many times I've said "This reminds me of..."), is it contrived in such a way that I'm just exercising a some internal desire to where it appears I might be consciously trying to overexert myself to find connections between things? How accurate am I when I draw my comparisons in the sense of not bending or not manipulating what I see to fit around what I perceive? How objective am I with these comparisons?

    I would be extremely worried if I were using or seeing connections like grasping for straws -- trying to see something that's not there. This is not something new that someone has brought up, so this is quite troubling. I can clearly remember my dad correcting me when I would arrive at similarly-drawn conclusions and being chastised for it. Could it be that I've just been good enough here on the forums to draw conclusions in such a way that simultaneously I've sort of consciously held myself back from reaching unacceptable conclusions so as to reach and draw "safe" conclusions and appearing to others competent in these manners so as to suggest dominance?
    First of all I'm sorry to hear that you were chastised for errors in thinking. I call that 'bad parenting'. But it doesn't surprise me, as I have heard about this phenomenon in SEI's before. It could very well be that your behavior on this forum is schema perpetuation: you are trying to prove that you are smart, and you are using people on this forum (and probably others in your life as well) as a proxy for your father (this is called 'transference' in psychology). Well, they day you accepted you had anything to prove, was the day you lost the war.

    Let me make something very clear here: I do not think SEI's are stupid, far from that, I think SEI's are intelligent and they know a lot of stuff, but typically they hold back their intelligence. My own girl friend, who is SEI, is regarded by many people in our social circle as 'intellectually inferior' to me, where I myself think we are equally intelligent (although emphasis differs). This is because she holds back her intelligence from other people, unless there is someone whom she trusts (read: leading Ne types).

    And no, you cannot not create 'safe conclusions' and be IEE at the same time. Leading Ne types are open about what they think, or they don't say anything, not compromise by reaching a conclusion that is safe and acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I find this to be an interesting point. If I am reading this correctly this is suggesting that my is let loose more naturally and openly in a social arenas (such as the forum, Stickam, or face-to-face diaglogue) if faced with leading types. So, I guess the question that would need to be asked is: When I am using in the social arena with non- leading types, does it come across differently? Is the suggestion then that non- leading, or even non- valuing types find my comparisons and conclusions a bit awkward and contrived? Say, Gamma. What are the characteristics of a Gamma receiving suggestive information? What do the Gammas here think, then, of conclusions and comparisons that I draw?
    Indeed, you would have to ask Betas and Gammas. Most likely they will be rejecting of your personality because.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    So, I guess, again, I need to ask other here: Have the systems I have drawn for myself appeared too contrived or unrealistic for myself? What then is the difference between the Delta NF idealism and vision, and your perception of the systems I create for myself? Is it the case for me, in your view, that my maturity level and "framework of knowledge" is such that I can sort of mask this to others and arrive at realistic systems some of the time?
    Sorry, but after reading this paragraph, I really need a breath of fresh air. What the hell is it you want o know here??

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I quite understand how you perceive in its totality, or perceive dramatism. I don't want to think that you see dramatism simply as corresponding to
    is, amongst other things, about morals, about ethics, about ethical behaviour between people. Have you ever seen the anger or rage of an ESI or EII when their value system is violated? Well, with IEEs it's the same thing, but less intense: when you violate an IEE's Fi-based values (whatever they are) they will use their demonstrative Fe to burn you down to the ground (Borderline PD style rage). Their is no hint of Fi in your posts, no moralism, certainly not Fe rage which is rooted in Fi. To me, you seem to be a good guy, one who is very accepting of people, not someone who, like a tradittional IEE, is very picky and moralistic in their approach to choosing friends (Betas especially find this kind of 'clientelism' very annoying).


    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Hmm. This might actually be several things. Frustrated about people not understanding some things that were hard for me to handle. Oh you mean like I was struggling with something, didn't know how to deal with it, another person would try to console me, but they didn't quite understand how to help me (even though the genuinely wanted to help)? I wonder if you're referring to when I was working as a shift manager at Pizza Hut and feeling overwhelmed when things were out of control and out of my control and nothing anyone could say could lift me out of it because I felt like I still had failed or let the store down. Something like this? If not, in the more general sense as you have put it in the post, that can be literally dozens of other similar situations I've found myself in that I could also describe for you.
    Yes, pizza hut it was, I'll look it up and create another post in this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    fwiw, the last time I took the MBTI, I tested ISFJ. But that was about 4 or 5 years ago, and, I'm not honestly sure how accurate that was. But, I can say that I have never tested ENFP on the MBTI in my lifetime.
    I don't know about ISFJ, but ESI is out of the question: it is very clear that you value Ne and I know ESI's to be quite skeptic: they have a total inability to recognize patterns, e.g. my mom, who had two men in her live, and both of them beat the crap out of her. Still, in her opinion, this was only accidental and there was no pattern in her own behavior style that led her to choose these men in the first place. Such is the nature of ESI's skepticism towards Ne, it is why they lack the capacity to grow intellectually and spiritually, and why they are so few of them on this forum.

    Finally, I want to say that I could be wrong about you being SEI, but I don't think I'm wrong about you not being IEE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Such is the nature of ESI's skepticism towards Ne, it is why they lack the capacity to grow intellectually and spiritually
    That's a bit of a big leap, from being skeptical towards Ne to being incapable of growing intellectually and spiritually. After all, there are still 7 functions left, and many of them can be deemed as capable of supplying intellectual and spiritual stimulation
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    I can't find the Pizza Hut thing on this forum, Pizza Hut is only mentioned on the Wiki, and not in the context of what I was thinking of. It's hard to provide a decent argument on something that can't be referenced, but here it is anyway:

    It was a situation in which you weren't performing well in the eyes of someone else, possibly a customer. You then started to 'whine' about how people had no understanding for difficulties in your work. Basically, I felt you were shifting responsibility off your own shoulders. It was an Fe appeal for understanding, a form of 'external locus of control', whereas Fi valueing types tend to have an 'internal locus of control': they tend to lay blame on themselves if things go wrong, even when they are not responsible. Such is the nature of Deltas and Gammas. An IEE will blame himself first instead of appeling for sympathy and understanding, which would be denigrating to IEE's.

    That piece of text (I still can't find it) is a clear example that you value Fe over Fi.
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    I was gonna reply to consentingadult in the otha thread, but since we have this new one...

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    And so does my SEI girl friend, and my LSI ex, and my SLE ex. Many types (perhaps all of them??) seek stability and support. However, I do think SEI's have a greater need for it, are also more capable of giving in to it, whereas IEE's might be more split about it.
    Wouldn't the SEI be able to provide stability, to a degree..? That's what I've found, dating SEIs... My apartment never got dirty and she went to work on time (that's what I consider stability haha.) She also bought me all of these pans I never use... Ah, I miss her... These dishes keep piling up.

    (joking... Although she did say that she enjoyed doing the dishes... Oh, bless her.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I was gonna reply to consentingadult in the otha thread, but since we have this new one...



    Wouldn't the SEI be able to provide stability, to a degree..? That's what I've found, dating SEIs... My apartment never got dirty and she went to work on time (that's what I consider stability haha.) She also bought me all of these pans I never use... Ah, I miss her... These dishes keep piling up.

    (joking... with an undertone of seriousness... She said she enjoyed doing the dishes... I felt like I was falling in love.)
    Exactly! SEI provide the kind of stability IEE's seek (although they also provide a lot of annoying Fe in the process ) My own life got a hell of a lot more stable since I got into a relationship with my current SEI girl friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I can't find the Pizza Hut thing on this forum, Pizza Hut is only mentioned on the Wiki, and not in the context of what I was thinking of. It's hard to provide a decent argument on something that can't be referenced, but here it is anyway:

    It was a situation in which you weren't performing well in the eyes of someone else, possibly a customer. You then started to 'whine' about how people had no understanding for difficulties in your work. Basically, I felt you were shifting responsibility off your own shoulders. It was an Fe appeal for understanding, a form of 'external locus of control', whereas Fi valueing types tend to have an 'internal locus of control': they tend to lay blame on themselves if things go wrong, even when they are not responsible. Such is the nature of Deltas and Gammas. An IEE will blame himself first instead of appeling for sympathy and understanding, which would be denigrating to IEE's.

    That piece of text (I still can't find it) is a clear example that you value Fe over Fi.
    any other examples? i thought a focus also shifted towards a tendency to shirk responsibilities and obligations. and please, tell me, where are you getting this Fe = external locus of control/ Fi = internal locus?

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    I don't know about ISFJ, but ESI is out of the question: it is very clear that you value Ne and I know ESI's to be quite skeptic: they have a total inability to recognize patterns, e.g. my mom, who had two men in her live, and both of them beat the crap out of her. Still, in her opinion, this was only accidental and there was no pattern in her own behavior style that led her to choose these men in the first place. Such is the nature of ESI's skepticism towards Ne, it is why they lack the capacity to grow intellectually and spiritually, and why they are so few of them on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post

    This begs an important question to myself: When I draw comparisons or make connections between things (which I believe I have done several times on this forum, not just in the wiki article -- think how many times I've said "This reminds me of..."), is it contrived in such a way that I'm just exercising a some internal desire to where it appears I might be consciously trying to overexert myself to find connections between things? How accurate am I when I draw my comparisons in the sense of not bending or not manipulating what I see to fit around what I perceive? How objective am I with these comparisons?

    I would be extremely worried if I were using or seeing connections like grasping for straws -- trying to see something that's not there. This is not something new that someone has brought up, so this is quite troubling. I can clearly remember my dad correcting me when I would arrive at similarly-drawn conclusions and being chastised for it. Could it be that I've just been good enough here on the forums to draw conclusions in such a way that simultaneously I've sort of consciously held myself back from reaching unacceptable conclusions so as to reach and draw "safe" conclusions and appearing to others competent in these manners so as to suggest dominance?
    this behavior would make sense under the context of Ne + subdued logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's a bit of a big leap, from being skeptical towards Ne to being incapable of growing intellectually and spiritually. After all, there are still 7 functions left, and many of them can be deemed as capable of supplying intellectual and spiritual stimulation
    Yeah, I must admit you're right. but this is how it looks from my perspective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    any other examples? i thought a focus also shifted towards a tendency to shirk responsibilities and obligations. and please, tell me, where are you getting this Fe = external locus of control/ Fi = internal locus?
    You are extrapolating here, although I can see how me not being complete on how locus of control manifest itself, could have led to the confusion.

    every type is capable of both external and internal locus of control. However, the manifestations differ.

    I also think in itself is not about shirking responsibilities, this is caused by weak Se and Ti/Fi, and only in pathological cases.

    When speaking of IEE's, I don't think they shift responsibilities to other people, they simply neglect (shirk) these responsibilities and let them grow over their heads.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-24-2008 at 08:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    When speaking of IEE's, I don't think they shift responsibilities to other people, they simply neglect these responsibilities and let them grow over their heads.
    BINGO

    consentingadult, I believe, understands the IEE very well...

    Over time I've noticed Socionic differences between me and tereg, but I've attributed it to subtypes--the way we write, subject matter, etc... Should I elaborate?

    I like tereg very much--and in all honesty, believe that he knows himself/Socionics well enough to make a good judgment... I never read his reaction to Rick's extended description... Maybe I'll go do that.

    This discussion could lead to a better understanding of the IEE type for everyone.
    Last edited by JuJu; 08-24-2008 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    BINGO

    consentingadult, I believe, understands the IEE very well...

    I've noticed Socionic differences between me and tereg, but I've attributed it to subtypes... Should I elaborate? (I like tereg very much--and in all honesty, believe that he knows himself/the system well enough to make an informed judgment about his own type... Regardless, this is interesting to read.)

    This discussion could lead to a better understanding of the IEE type for everyone.
    Today, I read Tereg's introduction to this forum, and I believe his self-description is a construction, i.e. he already had a very clear idea of what Psychological Types entail and created a profile that could easily be interpreted that way. It's a personal conclusion, but to me read reads like a description of what he wanted to be (what he values) rather than what he really is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Today, I read Tereg's introduction to this forum, and I believe his self-description is a construction, i.e. he already had a very clear idea of what Psychological Types entail and created a profile that could easily be interpreted that way. It's a personal conclusion, but to me read reads like a description of what he wanted to be (what he values) rather than what he really is.
    could you link to it? i do that same thing, again. i'd like to read it. thx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    could you link to it? i do that same thing, again. i'd like to read it. thx.
    Here it is:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ighlight=shift
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    So, I guess, again, I need to ask other here: Have the systems I have drawn for myself appeared too contrived or unrealistic for myself? What then is the difference between the Delta NF idealism and vision, and your perception of the systems I create for myself? Is it the case for me, in your view, that my maturity level and "framework of knowledge" is such that I can sort of mask this to others and arrive at realistic systems some of the time?
    Sorry, but after reading this paragraph, I really need a breath of fresh air. What the hell is it you want o know here??
    What I'm asking is, can Delta NF idealism appear (superficially speaking) to some as creating unrealistic systems in the same manner you are suggesting an SEI might? What are the differences if not? I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around is what is the difference between what I have been doing here on the forums (with respect to my level of maturity and my "framework of knowledge") to discuss the systems that I perceive to what or how an IEE would develop these ideas? Because what you're talking about could be interpreted as being a Delta NF idealism trait, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I can't find the Pizza Hut thing on this forum, Pizza Hut is only mentioned on the Wiki, and not in the context of what I was thinking of. It's hard to provide a decent argument on something that can't be referenced, but here it is anyway:

    It was a situation in which you weren't performing well in the eyes of someone else, possibly a customer. You then started to 'whine' about how people had no understanding for difficulties in your work. Basically, I felt you were shifting responsibility off your own shoulders. It was an Fe appeal for understanding, a form of 'external locus of control', whereas Fi valueing types tend to have an 'internal locus of control': they tend to lay blame on themselves if things go wrong, even when they are not responsible. Such is the nature of Deltas and Gammas. An IEE will blame himself first instead of appeling for sympathy and understanding, which would be denigrating to IEE's.

    That piece of text (I still can't find it) is a clear example that you value Fe over Fi.
    The only thing I can think of where I discussed my previous job was in my intro thread, which I will quote in part for context:

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    By the time I was a senior I had considered dropping the major [Electrical Engineering] and starting fresh, but some reasoned people convinced me otherwise to finish the degree because I was so close. I knew at that point that I was not willing to go into the engineering field for a career because even though it would pay great, I could not be an engineer because I felt like... almost like it would not be fair to the profession for me to do something that I couldn't contribute whole-heartedly to. "If I struggle like I do applying concepts to basic engineering problems, how am I going to be able to do this as an actual engineer?" was usually the question I would pose myself. During my time as an engineering student I was exposed to a lot of people in the industry and really got a good sense of what it was like being an engineer. And it just didn't seem to fit me.

    Of course, that raised several eyebrows of my unwillingness to not be an engineer. Especially when I chose to work for Pizza Hut as a shift manager for a couple of years immediately following my graduation. That really made some people scratch their heads. Monetary gain is solely not enough of a justification for me to go into an industry. I feel like need to contribute on my end to my satisfaction in order to be a part of something. But, again, when people started to talk to me about what I "should" do with my career, I started to get agitated. I'd be like "I know! I know this doesn't make any sense, but I just can't do something if my heart isn't there." It still really bothered a lot of people, which in turn really bothered me that I couldn't help them to make sense of my decisions.

    I know I'm getting a little bit beyond the scope of the question with all of this, but I probably should still explain how I got from Pizza Hut to my current job.

    The Pizza Hut job appealed to me because of it's customer-service orientation. It really drove me, and it really stressed me out too. There were times when it was physically impossible for me to adequately serve the people that I was directly responsible for during my shifts. There were days I'd work when I'd have one driver and I was the only one in the store and I'd have to handle four calls, leaving three on hold and simultaneously have 3 tickets that were still waiting to be made. Those times were by far the most stressful for me because I disliked not being able to provide good customer service for paying customers.

    I took pride in what I did. And I was really bothered with people who didn't care about their job or didn't pull their end of responsibilities. And the store was quickly falling that way, and I needed to change jobs. But, my internal moral dilemma was I did not feel good about leaving a store unless I felt like it was in stable condition. And I eventually was able to leave about 2 months after I originally had put in my 2 weeks notice.

    My current job was my next job and I absolutely love it. I've always enjoyed doing freelance technical support for people who have problems with their computers. And this job fulfills my need for a warm, welcoming atmosphere and my need to contribute adequately.
    Last edited by tereg; 08-24-2008 at 08:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    i have to say that he does VI as a very similar vibe/look as bionicgoat. some of his self descriptions were how bg is irl too. beyond that, he is more serious than bg though. but i know that a lot of bg's joking is a stress relief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    I took pride in what I did. And I was really bothered with people who didn't care about their job or didn't pull their end of responsibilities. And the store was quickly falling that way, and I needed to change jobs. But, my internal moral dilemma was I did not feel good about leaving a store unless I felt like it was in stable condition. And I eventually was able to leave about 2 months after I originally had put in my 2 weeks notice.
    With respect to the bolded part, I fleshed this out in the anecdotal IEE page on the wiki:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    It's emotionally stirring for me if I realize that someone is just using me or taking advantage of me. I'd say the emotions that I feel in those situations (which in my life are rare, but they have happened) then I become very bitter, very cold-shouldered towards them. Conversations are terse and as brief as possible if I absolutely have to talk to them.

    Here's an example of this, that I'd consider being taken advantage of. I worked as a shift manager at Pizza Hut a few years ago. One of my roommates at that time was also a shift manager. Scheduling was never consistent, we might get moved around shifts from time to time, but I remember one period of time in particular when I would open the store, and my roommate was scheduled to come in at the 5:00 shift to close the store that night. During this one particular period, my roommate would actually stay up until early morning, and sleep through the morning and afternoon and wake up in the early evening in time to go to work.

    He'd oversleep one day, I'd have to call him to wake him up. Ok, no big deal, people oversleep, it happens. Then it happens not many days later. I'm slightly pissed off. Then it happens again, but this time we're getting slammed with calls, so I can't call him to wake him up because I've got 3 lines on hold and also the cook needs help with the influx of orders. I try calling my roommate about 20 minutes later and he doesn't pick up the phone. We get busy. I call him at 5:45, and he finally picks up the phone and gets to work.

    But that's only part of the story. There were times that I'd close a shift that he opened, but he left things undone (things that should have been done during the day), so, I get on it right away to get the things done that were undone, falling behind on my tasks, but needing to finish it because, well, it needed to be done.

    There were times when I'd open a shift the day after a shift he closed, and certain things were not ready, and I'd have to dedicate a portion of opening the store (when I have no help, mind you, it's just me, and I have one hour to get things done before the first help arrives -- the opening driver) to correcting his mistakes, which takes time out from what I need to do to get the store ready, but, I don't complain... I just do the things that need to get done because, again, they need to be done. When I see my roommate again, I'm terse with him, and explain to him what was not done and that he needed to do them during his shift.

    After a history of this, I went from letting it slide to being extremely agitated, because it was clear that he was completely disregarding the extra work I had to do on his behalf, and not correcting the problem in subsequent shifts. That I would consider being taken advantage of.
    Now, with regards to "putting up a fight" in confrontations, yeah it typically feels out of the ordinary when I have to confront someone and I stand my ground with them. So in that sense, there is a sense of accomplishment when I can be very direct with a person. But many times when I have to confront someone, I have it in my head what I'm going to say to the person, and then I end up modifying it slightly when the time comes. There really isn't a sense of accomplishment in those moments, because I didn't really "put up a fight". So, it's true that there is that sense of accomplishment, but it doesn't happen very often.

    And I think that also illustrates that I can only be in that mode for a brief period of time. It takes a lot of build up and it takes a lot of energy for me to be able to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    What I'm asking is, can Delta NF idealism appear (superficially speaking) to some as creating unrealistic systems in the same manner you are suggesting an SEI might? What are the differences if not? I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around is what is the difference between what I have been doing here on the forums (with respect to my level of maturity and my "framework of knowledge") to discuss the systems that I perceive to what or how an IEE would develop these ideas? Because what you're talking about could be interpreted as being a Delta NF idealism trait, imo.
    You are asking the wrong person, I think Betas and Gammas might be able to answer it better, since they can look at it from a distance, and you and I are right in the center and will deal with it more subjectively. But I'm inclined to say the 'systems' of Delta NF's would be considered 'weird' or 'rigid' by some people, whereas the SEI system would be considered 'incorrect', of to put it in Gamma terms: 'idiotic'.

    How do I see Delta NF idealism? Well, take it to extremes and you will arrive at moralism, although less harsh than Gamma SF moralism (harsh probably in the eyes of Betas and Alphas).

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    The only thing I can think of where I discussed my previous job was in my intro thread, which I will quote in part for context:
    No, this was not it, but it is not all that important anyway.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I wonder if it's this:

    From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=18816

    I could never respect:

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    ...an acute sense of entitlement that ignores circumstances and sudden changes of others and others' environments.

    ...an acute sense of entitlement that causes a person to scream or yell in frustration at another person who is clearly trying their best to serve or help that person.


    "All I ask is that you provide what you promise."

    I'm sure that's all you ask for. I guess the 5 calls to a turned off cell phone, numerous calls to your house, several voicemails and emails... leaving no way to get a hold of you about the suddenly unforeseen changing circumstances is somehow indicative of not providing what we promise.

    Oh, but I guess the customer is always right. Yeah, I probably should provide what I promise and be able to predict things like the power suddenly going out for 2 hours or that car that drove through our front door or a robber holding us up. Or even less extreme things like, a critical piece of machinery suddenly breaking down and malfunctioning, an employee suddenly getting sick and calling 3 minutes before their shift saying they won't be able to make it in.

    "This place is run by a bunch of children. You should be ashamed at the service you provide people. All I was asking for was ____ and you couldn't even do that. For shame!"

    "I want what I ask for, and I expect it to happen when you tell me it's going to happen."


    ...an acute sense of entitlement that does not want to understand changing circumstances.
    I have to admit I probably was in an extremely agitated state when making this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    I wonder if it's this:

    From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=18816

    I could never respect:



    I have to admit I probably was in an extremely agitated state when making this post
    I don't think this was it, but this one too seems to appeal for understanding where such an appeal should not be made. People pay for stuff and they have a right to have delivered what they have paid for. Unless there is a situation of majeure, you can do that, and typically, people will respect that. Such is the critical nature of Te, which does not allow for incompetence and lame excuses for things that haven't been taken care of properly, but should have been.

    I think what I was referring to was even more anti-Te. But don't waste your time on trying to find it.

    You are not a Te valuer imho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You are not a Te valuer imho.
    consentingadult, how to tell if someone's a Te valuer in your op?

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I don't think this was it, but this one too seems to appeal for understanding where such an appeal should not be made. People pay for stuff and they have a right to have delivered what they have paid for. Unless there is a situation of majeure, you can do that, and typically, people will respect that. Such is the critical nature of Te, which does not allow for incompetence and lame excuses for things that haven't been taken care of properly, but should have been.

    I think what I was referring to was even more anti-Te. But don't waste your time on trying to find it.

    You are not a Te valuer imho.
    i'm still not really sure what about the pizza hut incident had to do with not being Te-valuing. it sounded like excuses he made were rather legit, imo. it's not like you can magically prevent a robbery or like anyone is thinking of customers post-robbery/crisis-situation. if the people you type as ISTps/ESTjs don't respect these things, we can easily call them jackasses as opposed to Te-valuers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    consentingadult, how to tell if someone's a Te valuer in your op?
    That's difficult to answer in a few short words, it's easiest to understand it in its pathological form:

    17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)


    The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
    Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

    source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm

    If you want to understand this in greater detail, try one of these books:

    Reinventing your Life

    Schema Therapy, a Practitioners Guide

    Both are written by Jeffrey E. Young and contain chapters on Unrelenting Standards. Once you have an understanding of this schema, you can extrapolate to less pathological forms and understand Te.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That's difficult to answer in a few short words, it's easiest to understand it in its pathological form:

    17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)


    The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
    Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

    source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm

    If you want to understand this in greater detail, try one of these books:

    Reinventing your Life

    Schema Therapy, a Practitioners Guide

    Both are written by Jeffrey E. Young and contain chapters on Unrelenting Standards. Once you have an understanding of this schema, you can extrapolate to less pathological forms and understand Te.
    sounds like you're describing a disease and not Te.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i'm still not really sure what about the pizza hut incident had to do with not being Te-valuing. it sounded like excuses he made were rather legit, imo. it's not like you can magically prevent a robbery or like anyone is thinking of customers post-robbery/crisis-situation. if the people you type as ISTps/ESTjs don't respect these things, we can easily call them jackasses as opposed to Te-valuers.
    Do you know where I can find that Pizza Hut account? If we have the original source, we can discuss it better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    sounds like you're describing a disease and not a socionics type.
    No, it's a trait in a personality pathology. personality disorder if you will. In itself Te is not pathological, but this is what it will turn into when it does get pathological.

    What is your type, btw?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    No, it's a trait in a personality pathology. personality disorder if you will. In itself Te is not pathological, but this is what it will turn into when it does get pathological.

    What is your type, btw?

    so why would you use the pathological description? at this point i can barely, if at all, see Te described in that and it only reminds me vaguely of ashton's tendency to type sick & possessive men who beat their wives senseless as ESTj heh.


    i'm probably not in your quadra and i really don't know where the pizza hut account is, only the posts that tereg has linked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That's difficult to answer in a few short words, it's easiest to understand it in its pathological form:

    ...

    source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm

    ...

    Once you have an understanding of this schema, you can extrapolate to less pathological forms and understand Te.
    I read through some of this stuff--and bearing in mind that authors were describing a pathology, I've noticed many of these same traits (to less pathological degrees, hehe, sometimes,) in my best friends, two in particular--both I've typed INTp... In other words, this makes sense to me for Te. Thank you.

    P.S. Many ppl seem to type Implied as IXTp... I haven't seen pictures/videos, or read Implied's posting history thoroughly, etc, so I can't comment with any real understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    so why would you use the pathological description? at this point i can barely, if at all, see Te described in that and it only reminds me vaguely of ashton's tendency to type sick & possessive men who beat their wives senseless as ESTj heh.


    i'm probably not in your quadra and i really don't know where the pizza hut account is, only the posts that tereg has linked.
    The non-pathological description is on the wiki, which I'm sure you know.

    The thing with leading Te-types who are not pathological (as any other type) is that they are difficult to recognize by beginners in typing. As Prokofieva says:

    Those, who have superficial knowledge of socionics, very often have vague understanding of the fact that there is normally little difference between strong and weak functions. Speaking about strong and weak functions socionics does not state that there are very few weak functions or that they are much weaker than strong ones. With a harmoniously developed person the balance of strong and weak functions remains approximately at the level of 60:40 which reminds of the proportion of golden section (about 62:38) and can correspond to it.

    This is why it can be difficult to type balanced people (and on the basis of Attachment Theory, I hypothesize that about 70% of all people are balanced). This I why I propose the pathological version of Te: blow it up poster-size and it will be easier to see. Then, after a while you can start to understand how each maladapative schema (as they are called) has a counterpart in healthy personality, as also men like John Oldham and Theodore Millon (who speaks of 'normal extreme behavior' and 'abnormal extreme behavior') have explained and which does not contradict Jung or Socionics.

    You say you are probably not in my quadra. Can't you be more specific about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I read through some of this stuff--and bearing in mind that authors were describing a pathology, I've noticed many of these same traits (to less pathological degrees, hehe, sometimes,) in my best friends, two in particular--both I've typed INTp... In other words, this makes sense to me for Te. Thank you.

    P.S. Many ppl seem to type Implied as IXTp... I haven't seen pictures/videos, or read Implied's posting history thoroughly, etc, so I can't comment with any real understanding.
    Unrelenting Standards manifest itself mostly in the Gamma quadra and to a lesser extent in the Delta Quadra. In this respect, Alphas and Betas are far better off, but they are more prone to other maladaptive schemas. None of us are given any breaks ;-)
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    could you link to it? i do that same thing, again. i'd like to read it. thx.
    P.S. what is it you mean by "i do that same thing, again." Are you unsure about your type?
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That's difficult to answer in a few short words, it's easiest to understand it in its pathological form:

    17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)


    The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
    Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

    source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm

    If you want to understand this in greater detail, try one of these books:

    Reinventing your Life

    Schema Therapy, a Practitioners Guide

    Both are written by Jeffrey E. Young and contain chapters on Unrelenting Standards. Once you have an understanding of this schema, you can extrapolate to less pathological forms and understand Te.
    Oh please. This way, you cut off 90 percent of the population which isn't pathological...
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Today, I read Tereg's introduction to this forum, and I believe his self-description is a construction, i.e. he already had a very clear idea of what Psychological Types entail and created a profile that could easily be interpreted that way. It's a personal conclusion, but to me read reads like a description of what he wanted to be (what he values) rather than what he really is.
    I don't think this is the case. He didn't know diddly when he started and didn't seem to think he was necessarily Delta NF or anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Oh please. This way, you cut off 90 percent of the population which isn't pathological...
    the person being described is unhealthy (obviously, sorry for stating the obvious)--that said, in your mind, maybe try to minimize the description and see if it matches up with some of your INTp friends..?

    I was in a band with a INTp once... "Unrelenting standards" haha is a pretty good way to describe his use of the studio/equipment and the recording process... But I appreciated that in him, and honestly, wanted it myself... The songs would've been sheisse without him.

    consentingadult, what you're saying is: tereg needs Ti rather than Te, right..? Have you seen this manifested?

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    The ISTps and ESTjs I know do not have "unrelenting standards". Te + Ni is different than Te + Si.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Oh please. This way, you cut off 90 percent of the population which isn't pathological...
    90%?? I appreciate your optimism, but 70% is more likely
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    The ISTps and ESTjs I know do not have "unrelenting standards". Te + Ni is different than Te + Si.
    A healthy person wouldn't have it indeed, and there are many healthy LSEs and SLIs. However, unhealthy SLIs and LSEs do project these standards onto other people, not on themselves: LSEs driving subordinates to unhealthy levels of productivity, and SLIs being critical of the 'incompetence' of other people:

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    LSE: "everybody else is so lazy".
    SLI: "everybody else is so incompetent".


    P.S.: could you elaborate on the difference between Te+Ni and Te+Si and how you see it?
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-24-2008 at 10:49 PM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    consentingadult, what you're saying is: tereg needs Ti rather than Te, right..? Have you seen this manifested?
    Yes, but not in him, but rather in the feelings he invokes in me: he asks questions that can help him to build a system (provide him understanding), which causes fatigue in me, I have the habit of answering Ti questions with Te answers, which makes me realize I'm not addressing his questions properly, so I don't think I'm very helpful. I wonder why there aren't any ILEs responding to him. Perhaps I'm wrong about him being SEI.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Another way of looking at it:

    Tereg could be complaining about how nobody understands the complexity and difficulty of the administrative details (Te and Si details), whilst they still have incorrect preconceived ideas about how things are supposed to work.

    Also 'unrelenting standards' can be seen as being how impressive about adhearing to the demands of society (Fe and Se) something is.
    Last edited by leckysupport; 08-24-2008 at 11:11 PM.

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