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Thread: Absolute power and functions

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    Default Absolute power and functions

    No matter what type you are, your use of functions will always be limited by social, financial, moral and other kinds of restraints.

    I have been thinking that individuals without such restraints - or with very few - would be most likely to indulge in using mainly their stronger functions and totally neglect their weaker ones.

    So individuals with absolute or near absolute power should be the ones where function use is most clear.

    Lord Acton said, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

    I say; "power makes you focus on your stronger functions, absolute power makes you focus on them absolutely"

    I can think of a few examples.

    What do you think?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Could you give a more detailed example, like with functions? I am interested

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    *sighs*

    I have so much to say here... but not right now. I have to do some chores. For now I'll just say that I disagree with you almost entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    For now I'll just say that I disagree with you almost entirely.
    Excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishysquishy
    Could you give a more detailed example, like with functions? I am interested
    Absolute or near absolute power is always an illusion, but I have a few historical examples. If they are not familiar, I can try to think of others.

    For instance, Louis XIV, King of France in 1643-1715, who became almost synominous with absolute monarchy.

    To me it's clear that he was ESTj, so:

    Base function : in ESTjs this means enormous capacity for working many hours and to direct others towards doing the same, and in designing procedures for that goal.

    Louis was an absolute monarch in the true meaning of the term, that is, he ran all the government personally and took every decision himself, his ministers were just his servants. He also set up very rigid and precise procedures.

    Creative function : this is manifested as very clear tastes in aesthetics, food, etc. and a willingness to impose it on their environment and on others. Louis imposed his own tastes very strongly on France - paintings, statues, clothes, architecture, gardening (as in Versailles) in ways that affected the whole of Europe and affect us even today, such as inventing high heels (for his own use) and even the rituals in restaurants.

    Role function : rather than deal with difficulties in using or developing , Louis dealt with that by creating very precise rituals around the person of the king, eliminating any informality and minimizing the occasions when he'd have to exercise .

    PoLR - This is manifested either as a tendency to be always late, or in never being able to predict the amount of time needed to accomplish a task. Louis dealt with that by, again, creating very rigid procedures and rituals - he alwasy got out of bed and went to sleep at precisely the same time, and his daily routine was so rigid that it was said that at Versailles you didn't need a clock - you just had to check what the king was doing.

    Hidden agenda - to be perfect - Louis's whole reign was a pursuit of "glory" for himself and France.

    My argument is that Louis did not have to deal with his and weaknesses, nor try to develop them - - rather, he used his and to create an environment where he wouldn't have to concern himself with and .

    Of course, he could do that because he was an absolute monarch.

    That is the sort of thing I meant. I can give other examples.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Absolute power and functions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    No matter what type you are, your use of functions will always be limited by social, financial, moral and other kinds of restraints.

    I have been thinking that individuals without such restraints - or with very few - would be most likely to indulge in using mainly their stronger functions and totally neglect their weaker ones.

    So individuals with absolute or near absolute power should be the ones where function use is most clear.

    Lord Acton said, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

    I say; "power makes you focus on your stronger functions, absolute power makes you focus on them absolutely"

    I can think of a few examples.

    What do you think?
    If by that you mean that an individual with an absolute power will shape the realm of their existance to fit their own type, I absolutely agree.

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    Default Re: Absolute power and functions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    No matter what type you are, your use of functions will always be limited by social, financial, moral and other kinds of restraints.

    I have been thinking that individuals without such restraints - or with very few - would be most likely to indulge in using mainly their stronger functions and totally neglect their weaker ones.

    I disagree, save for..... the person being very, very basic and uncultivated.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    let's just say that my personal philosophy is really big on self-fullfilling prophecy and leave it at that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    let's just say that my personal philosophy is really big on self-fullfilling prophecy and leave it at that
    I really don't see what self-fulfilling prophecy has to do with it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    PoLR - This is manifested either as a tendency to be always late, or in never being able to predict the amount of time needed to accomplish a task. Louis dealt with that by, again, creating very rigid procedures and rituals - he alwasy got out of bed and went to sleep at precisely the same time, and his daily routine was so rigid that it was said that at Versailles you didn't need a clock - you just had to check what the king was doing.
    It seems to me that this Is e way of Dealing with this weakness, not ignoring it. To ignore it would be to forget about time alltogether, am I wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    It seems to me that this Is e way of Dealing with this weakness, not ignoring it. To ignore it would be to forget about time alltogether, am I wrong
    Yes, you are wrong, in the sense that I said nothing about "ignoring" weak functions -- I said that he neglected the development of . He created an environment where , on a daily basis, became irrelevant.

    The opposite situation is for an ESTj to work in a position where lots of quick, short-term decisions have to be made during the day and the workload has to be juggled around precisely - then s/he has to use or develop .

    I do realize that my wording is contradictory, since I first say that he did "deal "with his weak functions by using his strong ones; and then I say that he did not have to "deal" with them - -

    What I mean is that he did deal with , but not by developing its use as a function.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    I see what you mean and it makes good sense. How would someone deal with a Fe POLR on a dealy basis by using the other functions, such as an INTP?

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    That was me above

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    Me that is
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    I see what you mean and it makes good sense. How would someone deal with a Fe POLR on a dealy basis by using the other functions, such as an INTP?
    Well, first, I may again have used careless wording -- it is power that allows you to neglect the development of your weaker functions and concentrate on the stronger ones, not the stronger funcions themselves. That works nicely in Louis XIV's case because his strongest function is precisely the one to use to create an environment.

    Now in the case of PoLR, I have two examples.

    Louis XV, King of France 1715-1774, INTp in my opinion

    He almost totally dismantled the rigid daily schedules created by Louis XIV as described above and created his own daily routine spontaneously, using his strong . I think that his strong and are obvious if you know the history of the period.

    His role function is not important since he simply kept the environment inherited from Louis XIV and never tried to impose his own - he simply ignored the development of an own aesthetic taste. He probably never even thought about it.

    His PoLR is visible in that he avoided meeting strangers as much as possible, preferring to interact with a small number of intimates whom he knew (or thought he knew) well, communicating with as many people as possible by writing, and relying on trusted feelers (such as Madam du Pompadour) to guide him regarding public opinion, relationships with other people, etc. Basically avoiding any situation where he'd have to intepret other people's feelings and react to them emotionally.

    Tiberius, Emperor of Rome, 14-37, ISTp in my opinion

    Regarding the PoLR, basically the same methods as Louis XV. Tiberius ruled from an isolated villa on the island of Capri and limited his personal contact to as few individuals as possible, relying on trusted advisors to deal with others and gauge public opinion. He acted ruthlessly when he thought that such advisors had betrayed him. He also dealt with his weak by executing family members whose loyalty he doubted - "do not strain my PoLR, die instead".

    Regarding his role function, he acted as you suggested above - basically ignoring any schedules or deadlines. Others had to adjust their schedules and deadlines to his. He took whatever time he fancied to carry on his duties. Which often meant that he took months to take a decision.
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    Interesting discussion, I had already typed Tiberius as ISTp too. How would you suggest that people strentgthen their POLR Fi or Fe?
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    : become a salesman or professional politician
    : read, and take seriously, books on philosophy and morals
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Good ideas Expat. I have an ENTj friend who wants to become a historian. Do you read a lot of history too?
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    Well, obviously, otherwise how would I even have written those posts? The proposed typings of Louis XIV, Louis XV and Tiberius are all my own.
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    I think that Rome was Entj as a society, what do you think Expat
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    And do you think Mari Antuanete was ESFP?

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    If you mean Marie Antoinette, I think ISFp is more likely.

    As for Rome, the predominant culture of the elites of the Roman Republic was perhaps ENTj in some respects and ISTj in others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I have been thinking that individuals without such restraints - or with very few - would be most likely to indulge in using mainly their stronger functions and totally neglect their weaker ones.
    Absolutely! Because the use of our ego-block is what brings us a sense of personal fulfilment. Is what makes us happy about ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    : become a salesman or professional politician
    : read, and take seriously, books on philosophy and morals
    What is the difference between Fe morality and Fi morality? Most moral theories are Fe, no?
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    And how do ENTJs avoid improving their Si?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    If I could rationalize some kind of pragmatic benefit from having stronger Si, then I'd pursue it.
    The only benefit that I can see is being able to make sure that I look "professionally tidy" in a suit during important meetings. I never seem to quite manage it.

    Personally I couldn't care less, but unfortunately the business world is full of morons who do care about that.
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    How would an ISFP or INFP avoid Te? It seems to me that it would be impossible? Am I wrong?
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    Expat I agree about Antuanet (german spelling), ISFP
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    Higher could possibly be useful to be able to "relax" and "live in the moment" more. Again, I'm not interested in those things, since they are totally alien to my way of life. However, since I have not yet experienced this possibility, I cannot exclude that it might be useful.

    Also, higher would mean higher attention to detail. However, this would hamper the typical ENTj very high work speed. In a world where specialization is what matters, I don't see as really useful try to improve above the level of sufficiency our weak points.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Yeah, I'm not at all sure why some people are so concerned about things like that. It's a mystery to me how it means anything at all.
    There is no mystery. Simply, people who care about aesthetics are more numerous than those who don't and therefore have shaped society's rituals.
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    Lack of could make one cruel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    How would an ISFP or INFP avoid Te? It seems to me that it would be impossible? Am I wrong?
    First, to make sure you understand my point, it's not about not ever using your weaker functions -- that is impossible if you're human. It's about absolute power allowing you to neglect the development of your weaker functions and concentrate on your stronger ones.

    As for ISFp and INFp, I have to think more about some examples, but the simple answer is that they would appoint someone else to do the for them and concentrate on their own interests. The total opposite of dominant Louis XIV who took all government and business decisions himself.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Lack of could make one cruel.
    Any type can be cruel. Besides, I can't see any connection between lack of and cruelty.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I agree with FDG. Well he paid me to say that but I still agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Lack of could make one cruel.
    Any type can be cruel. Besides, I can't see any connection between lack of and cruelty.
    Of course anyone can be cruel on purpose. What I meant is that it could happen unintentionally, because one is not fully aware of the sensations of others. Does that make sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Lack of could make one cruel.
    Any type can be cruel. Besides, I can't see any connection between lack of and cruelty.
    Of course anyone can be cruel on purpose. What I meant is that it could happen unintentionally, because one is not fully aware of the sensations of others. Does that make sense?
    Cruelty is commonly defined as disregard towards the emotions of other people, not towards the sensations.

    I personally think that the type which has the greatest potential for being cruel is the ESTp, due to plus lack of . I have to specify that I am just speculating, and I am not accusing any ESTp of being a criminal
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I agree with FDG. Well he paid me to say that but I still agree.
    Good job, now here's your milk and your bread.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Woot =D

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    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    How would an ISFP or INFP avoid Te? It seems to me that it would be impossible? Am I wrong?
    First, to make sure you understand my point, it's not about not ever using your weaker functions -- that is impossible if you're human. It's about absolute power allowing you to neglect the development of your weaker functions and concentrate on your stronger ones.

    As for ISFp and INFp, I have to think more about some examples, but the simple answer is that they would appoint someone else to do the for them and concentrate on their own interests. The total opposite of dominant Louis XIV who took all government and business decisions himself.
    I can definately see that. Particularly for / , where I sometimes expect other people to deal with objects and the environment while I live inside my head and dream. I'm very good at standing around and looking pretty . Not all the time, of course, and often it's thrusted upon me when I would rather be engaging - it appears that others can see my weak Sensing, too .

    My boyfriend actually banned from the kitchen due to the manifestations of weak Sensing and Logic: constantly knocking things over, making a mess on the bench, making a mess of myself when I lean on the bench without realising that I've made a mess on the bench, spilling the milk, crying over spilt milk, multiple attempts at cracking the eggs, inability to use kitch appliances or identify utensils despite repeated explanations of what they are and do, not to mention my complete inability to follow a recipe in the order that it's written....

    Come to think of it, if ever I came into absolute power I would never ever cook. Or clean. And my maids would brush my hair (a thousand brushes a day, hehe). And they can bathe me, too. Taking care of one's body is quite tiresome. Not to say that I would neglect things altogether, but I would use the weak functions for artistic pursuits (practical pursuits are over-rated, anyway).

    As for , someone else can do that as long as they don't talk to me about it. That would suck.

    I would make a very good ceremonial monarch! The palace and the elegance and the servants and the money... and the separate government that handles the running of the country... I knew I should have been born a princess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Higher could possibly be useful to be able to "relax" and "live in the moment" more.
    confers a certain ability to "live in the moment" too I would think. But in an obviously non-relaxing kind of way. I do enjoy that.
    I agree with both. My hidden agenda is that is the ability to relax, feel comfortable, because the as polr makes me nervous and can't really "live the moment" as I focus on it waaay too much,

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