IEIs/INFps debating against LIIs and ILEs - how to get better?
Beta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..
Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's
INFp
read books
I second this. Without adequate knowledge of the subject, you stand no chance of competing with them in a debate/argument. When I'm in these situations, I either extract myself or quietly listen.Originally Posted by Darkstar
Talk louder
If that doesn't work, resort to violence.
After that you'll find people start agreeing with you, to keep the peace.
Lack of comprehension of a subject has never stopped me from argueing about it.
Well, actually, maybe it has on an occasion or two. It depends who you're argueing against.
ILE's think things out ahead of time, so you should at least do the same. Also, kick their asses with their undervalued or ignoringBeta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..
Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's, as in, you are aware of some things that they are not.
If I had the time, I would offer to be your debate coach
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
the biggest weakness in ILE/LII ideas, theories etc is their lack of consideration for the people factor, and, at times, practical application. so i would think an IEI would be able to punch holes in their arguments along the lines of the people factor.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Yes, that I agree with, at least in my experience.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
but I should also warn you, you may be right with the human factor in an argument, but an ILE will not concede unless it is obvious.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
I do. That is what Ti is all about
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
I'm sorry, but I have to go lmao nowas you know, I don't think that you're ILE.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Don't take it so seriously, life is a celebration. And hey, we are hijacking the thread. Here, take this
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Hahah, yeah I see that happen.
It's mostly the LII ignoring the people factor and coming up with the arguments (he tends to bring up the law a lot "I personally don't agree, but the law says that and so they're right, you're wrong" or at least that's what I get from him) with the ILE agreeing and backing him up. Then they get bored, and I'm like heyyy I'm not done and we get distracted.
INFp
the law huh? the law is a bunch of bullshit. the law is only there to be manipulated and only the poor are held accountable to it. so "the law" is totally relative to who you are and how much money you have. there's loopholes galore and we all have to pay lawyers when we get caught with our hands in the cookie jar. fuck the man, man.
tell them that.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
First you have to openly admit defeat so they'll stop tag-teaming you. Then use Wikipedia and the internet to find holes in their arguments and then isolate them from each other so you can confront them one on one. They've been tag-teaming you which means they've got each others backs, protecting each others weak spots, find out which weak spot belongs to who, wait until one or the other is alone and unpreparedBeta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..
Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's, then claim victory and lay low for a couple days.
only 60% success ratio though because of all the external variables
Or you can just find an ILE and/or LII to back you up and go two vs. two, this would be much easier and would come with a higher success ratio cause your ILE/LII would be able to lay the Ti smackdown non-stop so long as you're feeding him/her with Fe. It would be like the difference between a race car with a pit crew vs. 2 race cars w/no pit crew or something like that lol
INFp-Ni
Hahah, Blaze, eff the law, I wants cookie
First you have to openly admit defeat so they'll stop tag-teaming you. Then use Wikipedia and the internet to find holes in their arguments and then isolate them from each other so you can confront them one on one. They've been tag-teaming you which means they've got each others backs, protecting each others weak spots, find out which weak spot belongs to who, wait until one or the other is alone and unprepared
only 60% success ratio though because of all the external variables
Or you can just find an ILE and/or LII to back you up and go two vs. two, this would be much easier and would come with a higher success ratio cause your ILE/LII would be able to lay the Ti smackdown non-stop so long as you're feeding him/her with Fe. It would be like the difference between a race car with a pit crew vs. 2 race cars w/no pit crew or something like that lol
There is my LII sister, but she's Ne subtype and can't scare a fly so she's useless.
INFp
USELESS!?! This is unacceptable, you must battle harden her with passionate debates over esoteric intellectual topics, like those found in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Foucaults-Pend...8997190&sr=8-1 , until her brain is a) well oiled b) about to combust, and then unleash her inner beast on your opponents!! Though the long-term consequences for your dear sister may be dire, especially if it all fails (she'll forgive you, that's what family is for right?), but think of the glory! only probability is against you so you need more dice!
''The best way to get the best out of an arugment, is to avoid one.''
Arguments, just make people resent you and go on the defensive, no matter what arguments you bring up, they will justify their own, to get them to back down and change their mind is pretty much impossible...even if you are right.
But if your really bent on it, IEIs are good at arguments if they learn to take in information objectively, intead of only taking in information to reinfroce/support their beliefs.
Just point out that laws have been repealed in the past, and therefore, using them over ethics or morality as a basis for what's 'right' is flawed. Then chide them that they should know that already.
SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype
+1000000
This is why people think I am ILE
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
lol
4w3-5w6-8w7
LII
that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.
What's funny about IEI's argueing and debating is that they tend to submit. How can you win an arguement if you submit!
hahaha, we're not interested in winning the battles, it's all about winning the war!
...
Last edited by Suomea; 09-28-2008 at 12:05 AM.
Suomea
What are you fighting for?
on the eastern front the annexation of those sweet abominable harems where spies inform the enemy's recently taken cover
on the western front victory, only victory
It sounds like you're on the defence.
well naturally. you need to lull them into a false sense of security, make them chase you to the arena. there you can finally unleash upon them the army of disfigured lesbians you borrowed from the set of 300 and think "ain't that a sight for sore eyes"
When I was young I wanted to be a mercenary.well naturally. you need to lull them into a false sense of security, make them chase you to the arena. there you can finally unleash upon them the army of disfigured lesbians you borrowed from the set of 300 and think "ain't that a sight for sore eyes"
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