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Thread: IEIs/INFps debating against LIIs and ILEs - how to get better?

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    Default IEIs/INFps debating against LIIs and ILEs - how to get better?

    Beta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..

    Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's
    INFp

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    read books

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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    I don't even try... it's usually a waste of time anyway,
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstar View Post
    read books
    I second this. Without adequate knowledge of the subject, you stand no chance of competing with them in a debate/argument. When I'm in these situations, I either extract myself or quietly listen.

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    Talk louder

    If that doesn't work, resort to violence.

    After that you'll find people start agreeing with you, to keep the peace.

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckoner View Post
    I second this. Without adequate knowledge of the subject, you stand no chance of competing with them in a debate/argument. When I'm in these situations, I either extract myself or quietly listen.
    Lack of comprehension of a subject has never stopped me from argueing about it.

    Well, actually, maybe it has on an occasion or two. It depends who you're argueing against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliphalet View Post
    Beta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..

    Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's
    ILE's think things out ahead of time, so you should at least do the same. Also, kick their asses with their undervalued or ignoring , as in, you are aware of some things that they are not.

    If I had the time, I would offer to be your debate coach
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    the biggest weakness in ILE/LII ideas, theories etc is their lack of consideration for the people factor, and, at times, practical application. so i would think an IEI would be able to punch holes in their arguments along the lines of the people factor.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    the biggest weakness in ILE/LII ideas, theories etc is their lack of consideration for the people factor, and, at times, practical application. so i would think an IEI would be able to punch holes in their arguments along the lines of the people factor.
    Yes, that I agree with, at least in my experience.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    but I should also warn you, you may be right with the human factor in an argument, but an ILE will not concede unless it is obvious.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    I don't think ILEs tend to believe in absolutes.
    I do. That is what Ti is all about
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    as you know, I don't think that you're ILE.
    I'm sorry, but I have to go lmao now
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    Don't take it so seriously, life is a celebration. And hey, we are hijacking the thread. Here, take this

    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Hahah, yeah I see that happen.

    It's mostly the LII ignoring the people factor and coming up with the arguments (he tends to bring up the law a lot "I personally don't agree, but the law says that and so they're right, you're wrong" or at least that's what I get from him) with the ILE agreeing and backing him up. Then they get bored, and I'm like heyyy I'm not done and we get distracted.
    INFp

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliphalet View Post
    Hahah, yeah I see that happen.

    It's mostly the LII ignoring the people factor and coming up with the arguments (he tends to bring up the law a lot "I personally don't agree, but the law says that and so they're right, you're wrong" or at least that's what I get from him) with the ILE agreeing and backing him up. Then they get bored, and I'm like heyyy I'm not done and we get distracted.
    the law huh? the law is a bunch of bullshit. the law is only there to be manipulated and only the poor are held accountable to it. so "the law" is totally relative to who you are and how much money you have. there's loopholes galore and we all have to pay lawyers when we get caught with our hands in the cookie jar. fuck the man, man.

    tell them that.


    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliphalet View Post
    Beta's heelp! What can I do to to argue better against my ILE and LII friends when they team up against me? Or pretty much against any other type..

    Other IEI's I know have trouble with this, and I understand what they're trying to say but I can't help out. It's so frustrating... Grr, wish I had some SLE's to kick their butts sometimes, but I can't help but love those alphas nt's
    First you have to openly admit defeat so they'll stop tag-teaming you. Then use Wikipedia and the internet to find holes in their arguments and then isolate them from each other so you can confront them one on one. They've been tag-teaming you which means they've got each others backs, protecting each others weak spots, find out which weak spot belongs to who, wait until one or the other is alone and unprepared and then overwhelm them with facts that contradict them and demand quick explanations , then claim victory and lay low for a couple days.

    only 60% success ratio though because of all the external variables

    Or you can just find an ILE and/or LII to back you up and go two vs. two, this would be much easier and would come with a higher success ratio cause your ILE/LII would be able to lay the Ti smackdown non-stop so long as you're feeding him/her with Fe. It would be like the difference between a race car with a pit crew vs. 2 race cars w/no pit crew or something like that lol
    INFp-Ni

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    Hahah, Blaze, eff the law, I wants cookie

    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    First you have to openly admit defeat so they'll stop tag-teaming you. Then use Wikipedia and the internet to find holes in their arguments and then isolate them from each other so you can confront them one on one. They've been tag-teaming you which means they've got each others backs, protecting each others weak spots, find out which weak spot belongs to who, wait until one or the other is alone and unprepared and then overwhelm them with facts that contradict them and demand quick explanations , then claim victory and lay low for a couple days.

    only 60% success ratio though because of all the external variables

    Or you can just find an ILE and/or LII to back you up and go two vs. two, this would be much easier and would come with a higher success ratio cause your ILE/LII would be able to lay the Ti smackdown non-stop so long as you're feeding him/her with Fe. It would be like the difference between a race car with a pit crew vs. 2 race cars w/no pit crew or something like that lol
    This post was so funny... They've actually jokingly ask me for citations, and I'm like this isn't wikipediaa beetchh.

    There is my LII sister, but she's Ne subtype and can't scare a fly so she's useless.
    INFp

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliphalet View Post
    There is my LII sister, but she's Ne subtype and can't scare a fly so she's useless.
    USELESS!?! This is unacceptable, you must battle harden her with passionate debates over esoteric intellectual topics, like those found in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Foucaults-Pend...8997190&sr=8-1 , until her brain is a) well oiled b) about to combust, and then unleash her inner beast on your opponents!! Though the long-term consequences for your dear sister may be dire, especially if it all fails (she'll forgive you, that's what family is for right?), but think of the glory! only probability is against you so you need more dice!
    INFp-Ni

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    ''The best way to get the best out of an arugment, is to avoid one.''

    Arguments, just make people resent you and go on the defensive, no matter what arguments you bring up, they will justify their own, to get them to back down and change their mind is pretty much impossible...even if you are right.

    But if your really bent on it, IEIs are good at arguments if they learn to take in information objectively, intead of only taking in information to reinfroce/support their beliefs.

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    Just point out that laws have been repealed in the past, and therefore, using them over ethics or morality as a basis for what's 'right' is flawed. Then chide them that they should know that already.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    +1000000

    This is why people think I am ILE
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper
    so now alphas get to be the only logical ones AND the shallow fun-lovers ... HMMMMM
    lol
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    What's funny about IEI's argueing and debating is that they tend to submit. How can you win an arguement if you submit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    What's funny about IEI's argueing and debating is that they tend to submit. How can you win an arguement if you submit!
    hahaha, we're not interested in winning the battles, it's all about winning the war!
    INFp-Ni

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    ...
    Last edited by Suomea; 09-28-2008 at 01:05 AM.
    Suomea

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    hahaha, we're not interested in winning the battles, it's all about winning the war!
    What are you fighting for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    What are you fighting for?
    on the eastern front the annexation of those sweet abominable harems where spies inform the enemy's recently taken cover
    on the western front victory, only victory
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    on the eastern front the annexation of those sweet abominable harems where spies inform the enemy's recently taken cover
    on the western front victory, only victory
    It sounds like you're on the defence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    It sounds like you're on the defence.
    well naturally. you need to lull them into a false sense of security, make them chase you to the arena. there you can finally unleash upon them the army of disfigured lesbians you borrowed from the set of 300 and think "ain't that a sight for sore eyes"

    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    well naturally. you need to lull them into a false sense of security, make them chase you to the arena. there you can finally unleash upon them the army of disfigured lesbians you borrowed from the set of 300 and think "ain't that a sight for sore eyes"

    When I was young I wanted to be a mercenary.

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