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Thread: Do IEEs-ENFps like to feel protected?

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    Default Do IEEs-ENFps like to feel protected?

    I know we tend to be a pretty independent bunch, but do you at the same time feel a need/desire to have someone who will protect you in some way? If so, how is this manifested? I'm not sure if it ties into being an Infantile.

    Non-ENFps, feel free to comment also!

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    I dont know about being protected so much because I dont feel in danger much. (perhaps because Im a guy) But I do like it when some one assist me or takes care of me in some personal way. I guess I like the feeling of being supported more than being protected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    I dont know about being protected so much because I dont feel in danger much. (perhaps because Im a guy) But I do like it when some one assist me or takes care of me in some personal way. I guess I like the feeling of being supported more than being protected.
    Yeah! This is what I meant really..."supported." Not like someone protecting me from danger, but rather like "I've got your back." Especially the way SLIs can do this in respect to my weak areas, without it feeling condescending (which is the vibe I get from say, SLEs instead). I'll try to think of an example.

    Defending me or standing up for me when someone is throwing Se or Ti at me, for instance. It's almost like they can sense that I'm struggling with it and they come in to support me in their typical calm and straightforward way.

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    Haha, sometimes I feel like I'm pretty picky:

    Give me direction, but don't tell me what to do.
    Support me, but don't smother me.
    Help me when I need assistance, but don't make it a big deal.
    Defend me, but don't protect me (I'm not weak or fragile, don't act like I am).
    Ground me, but don't constrain me.
    Need me, but don't make demands on me.
    Always be there for me, but don't remind me of your presence in my life constantly.
    Love me, but let me breathe.
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    I think support is a better word, I wouldn't really describe how I feel towards IEEs as protective at all.

    I wouldn't tell them what to think or feel, but I would tell them what to do or how to do things. Stuff like you should eat/drink something now so you don't feel ill, this is our plan of action, we need to do these things to get this project wrapped up etc.

    I never feel like I'm in a 'superior' position to IEEs, in a way that I'd be able to do something like 'protect' them (which seems really one-sided). It's very much an equal, mutually giving relationship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Haha, sometimes I feel like I'm pretty picky:

    Give me direction, but don't tell me what to do.
    Support me, but don't smother me.
    Help me when I need assistance, but don't make it a big deal.
    Defend me, but don't protect me (I'm not weak or fragile, don't act like I am).
    Ground me, but don't constrain me.
    Need me, but don't make demands on me.
    Always be there for me, but don't remind me of your presence in my life constantly.
    Love me, but let me breathe.
    Hehe, I feel like a walking contradiction half the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    I think support is a better word, I wouldn't really describe how I feel towards IEEs as protective at all.

    I wouldn't tell them what to think or feel, but I would tell them what to do or how to do things. Stuff like you should eat/drink something now so you don't feel ill, this is our plan of action, we need to do these things to get this project wrapped up etc.

    I never feel like I'm in a 'superior' position to IEEs, in a way that I'd be able to do something like 'protect' them (which seems really one-sided). It's very much an equal, mutually giving relationship.
    Yeah. ENFps just seem to appreciate a little help with functionally doing or perhaps organizing things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    I think support is a better word, I wouldn't really describe how I feel towards IEEs as protective at all.

    I wouldn't tell them what to think or feel, but I would tell them what to do or how to do things. Stuff like you should eat/drink something now so you don't feel ill, this is our plan of action, we need to do these things to get this project wrapped up etc.

    I never feel like I'm in a 'superior' position to IEEs, in a way that I'd be able to do something like 'protect' them (which seems really one-sided). It's very much an equal, mutually giving relationship.
    Definitely! This is the ONLY way I will ever respond to any help anyway. If done in an authoritative way, I will consider it condescending and rebel against it instead (which is how I've felt around SLEs, as I said before).
    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    An ENFj once told me that I was crazy/high-maintenance. They don't seem to know what I'm going on about; they seem to think its relationship self-sabotage. I don't know if the contradictions come from being Fi, Ne/Si valuing or irrational, or all of the above.
    Hmm, interesting. I was called "high maintenance" also not long ago, to which my response was "what?! now way." I just don't see how anyone would think I am that way, at least according to my definition of the word. But you're right, I guess it depends on the observer's perspective.

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    How about the following example:

    The other day an SLE, an SLI and I were having a discussion. Suddenly, the SLE addresses me with a comment/joke that seemed in bad taste and inappropriate to me...too graphic and violent for my taste. I reacted in shock to it, which I think the SLE took as a signal to push even harder and proceeded by asking, in awe, why I didn't find the joke funny. It was obvious that the SLI was able to immediately pick up on my reaction and proceeded to very clearly and firmly ask SLE to stop. I know that had he not intervened, the SLE would have continued to be pushy in explaining the joke and why I should have found it funny. In that situation, I appreciated the SLIs' ability to confront the stong Se coming from the SLE and not be as phased by it as I was and in addition be able to understand how it affected me. I, of course, also liked the way he went about in doing so.

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    I feel sort of embarrassed that I am resorting to Bridget Jones Diary in order to give an example, but bear with me.

    There is this scene in BJD where she's at the dinner with all the other smug marrieds, clearly very uncomfortable and being attacked by the other couples with insensitive questions about why she's yet to be married.

    COSMO: Still going out with that publishing chappie?
    BRIDGET: Uh, no, no.
    COSMO:Never dip your nib in the office ink. You really ought to hurry up and get sprugged up, you know, old girl? Time's a-running out. Tick-tock.
    BRIDGET: Uh,tell me, is it one in four marriages that ends in divorce now or one in three?
    MARK: One in three.
    COSMO: Seriously, though. Offices full of single girls in their thirties-- fine physical specimens but they just can't seem to hold down a chap.
    WONEY: Yes. Why is it there are so many unmarried women in their thirties these days, Bridget?
    [Mark sets down silverware]
    BRIDGET:[Laughs] Oh, I don't know. Suppose it doesn't help that underneath our clothes our entire bodies are covered in scales.

    The comment by Mark Darcy (SLI) where he answered her question about divorce rates was his way of signalling support for her - saying, very subtly, 'I've got your back'. When Woney asks Bridget the awkward question, pointedly victimising Bridget's single-status, Mark puts down his cutlery - he doesn't say anything, but it signals that he's aware of what's going on and is prepared to intercede if necessary. Bridget doesn't need him to come riding to her rescue. She makes the witty comment about scales to break up not only the awkwardness in the room, but to also disguise her own discomfort. Yet despite this, I would argue that Mark's reaction earlier on was a form of 'support' that the IEE needs. In fact, if you watch the scene, even though Bridget is convinced that Mark is repulsed by her at this point in the film, she seems comforted by his subtle intrusion into her conversation with Cosmo and a little surprised to find comfort coming from Mark Darcy.

    In the script (which was edited out), after the comment about scales by Bridget, Mark Darcy actually starts to talk obliquely about how people rush into marriage too easily and maybe waiting is in fact the wiser thing to do. This form of 'defence' or 'support' isn't 'How rude of you to attack her like this' - it is deflecting and subtle and helpful without making it seem like the person being supported is weak, vulnerable or unable to stand on their own two feet.

    Here's a clip of the scene I'm talking about:

    Last edited by unefille; 08-14-2008 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Adding clip to post.
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    That's a good example, unefille. Bridget Jones is such a great movie. I love it.

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    I definitely like "protection" though I guess there might be different definitions for that. I agree about help with Se people, as I just get stuck and have no clue how to respond to that.

    I like if a guy is there to walk me home if it's late at night, and I like guys who make me feel safe. But though I appreciate it, I don't like it if he rubs it in...I dated an ESTp briefly who would hint for compliments like "you'd probably never walk through this park after dark if I wasn't here." I found that somewhat annoying, even though it was true. I don't like my weaknesses pointed out

    Maybe i'm just girly, but I also like to be carried around, whether it's piggy back rides or whatever. Maybe us ENFps are high maintence, lol.

    And I like how ESTjs and ISTps both can make you feel protected without calling attention to it. I used to date an ESFp who was very protective (which I liked) but I didn't like that he would scare me about going out at night w/o him, etc. He would actually worry if I went to the store after like 8pm, and that got me to the point where I started going out a lot alone at night, just because.

    I think it's more a matter of them respecting you and knowing you can take care of yourself, but they are helping you with something just to be nice.
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    This isn't something I've ever consciously put a thought to. I guess I've always thought of it as my responsibilty to take care of myself. I have a much higher need to take care of others than for them to take care of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I like if a guy is there to walk me home if it's late at night, and I like guys who make me feel safe. But though I appreciate it, I don't like it if he rubs it in...I dated an ESTp briefly who would hint for compliments like "you'd probably never walk through this park after dark if I wasn't here." I found that somewhat annoying, even though it was true. I don't like my weaknesses pointed out
    hmm, I like that too, the walking home/safe thing. a lot actually. except that comment wouldn't bother me at all, I'd just say 'haha, yeah, true' and not register it beyond that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Haha, sometimes I feel like I'm pretty picky:

    Give me direction, but don't tell me what to do.
    Support me, but don't smother me.
    Help me when I need assistance, but don't make it a big deal.
    Defend me, but don't protect me (I'm not weak or fragile, don't act like I am).
    Ground me, but don't constrain me.
    Need me, but don't make demands on me.
    Always be there for me, but don't remind me of your presence in my life constantly.
    Love me, but let me breathe.
    I thought this is what all girls wanted??

    Sure, I can do that.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    hmm, I like that too, the walking home/safe thing. a lot actually. except that comment wouldn't bother me at all, I'd just say 'haha, yeah, true' and not register it beyond that.
    If a guy said that to me (and meant it), I'd probably walk home alone in the dark the next day (shaking and terrified the entire time, but I'd do it).

    In fact, I have often very stupid things just for that reason. Like when my bag is heavy and someone offers to take it. If they do it in a way that makes it obvious that I'm weak and need help, I will take the bag back and carry it myself and I will do that until I literally collapse under its weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    I thought this is what all girls wanted??
    That is what they all want or what the say they want. Anyway the wanting to be protected thing is probably just a female phenomena.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    That is what they all want or what the say they want. Anyway the wanting to be protected thing is probably just a female phenomena.
    Heh, I think Chuck (ESTP) would choke you out for saying that.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    That is what they all want or what the say they want. Anyway the wanting to be protected thing is probably just a female phenomena.
    No, I really do mean it when I say I don't want to be 'protected'. I hate it. When guys offer to 'walk me home' and protect me from the very dangerous...things that lurk in the dark, I find it funny. If it's too dangerous for me to walk by myself, then it's not going to be any safer with one guy next to me. I might as well call a cab. I frankly don't believe that much in female frailty, or masculine strength.

    That said, I do like being walked with to places. Not as a 'protecting me from the big bad world' thing, but a human company thing. Also, generally safety in numbers. And as just I don't think I'm protecting a guy when I offer to walk with him, I don't think of guys walking with me as protecting me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I definitely like "protection" though I guess there might be different definitions for that. I agree about help with Se people, as I just get stuck and have no clue how to respond to that.

    I like if a guy is there to walk me home if it's late at night, and I like guys who make me feel safe. But though I appreciate it, I don't like it if he rubs it in...I dated an ESTp briefly who would hint for compliments like "you'd probably never walk through this park after dark if I wasn't here." I found that somewhat annoying, even though it was true. I don't like my weaknesses pointed out

    Maybe i'm just girly, but I also like to be carried around, whether it's piggy back rides or whatever. Maybe us ENFps are high maintence, lol.

    And I like how ESTjs and ISTps both can make you feel protected without calling attention to it. I used to date an ESFp who was very protective (which I liked) but I didn't like that he would scare me about going out at night w/o him, etc. He would actually worry if I went to the store after like 8pm, and that got me to the point where I started going out a lot alone at night, just because.

    I think it's more a matter of them respecting you and knowing you can take care of yourself, but they are helping you with something just to be nice.
    I'm with you here 100%. This is also what I had in mind. I really like things like that too. I guess part of that for me has to do with making me feel special. Doing little things like this here and there speaks louder than words a lot of time. They make me feel loved.

    Another way I can think how this would work is when they make sure I'm physically comfortable. For instance, if they notice I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position or if I say "my back hurts from sitting on the floor so long" and they start suggesting ways in which I can start feeling more comfortable. It's like they can pick up on the fact that I'm not so keen on these things. I really like that. I'm pretty oblivious when it comes to my body sometimes. I can be laying on my arm, for instance, and not realize that it's causing me pain until a while later.

    I was in a relationship with an ESFj, who used to do some of these things also, but would usually call it to my attention. He would, for whatever reason, feel a need to point out that he was doing it and that I obviously needed him for this reason. This might have just been insecurity on his part though.

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Heh, I think Chuck (ESTP) would choke you out for saying that.
    I don't know much about her.

    I'm definitely female, and as I said I don't want to be protected, so you are wrong.
    You say it, but do you really mean it .

    I'm coming from the engrained gender role point of view, that on some level women expect men to be men and visa-versa. Like men being the ones to have to take the intiative in relationships, being providers and other examples I can't be bothered to think of right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    No, I really do mean it when I say I don't want to be 'protected'. I hate it. When guys offer to 'walk me home' and protect me from the very dangerous...things that lurk in the dark, I find it funny. If it's too dangerous for me to walk by myself, then it's not going to be any safer with one guy next to me. I might as well call a cab. I frankly don't believe that much in female frailty, or masculine strength.
    That's interesting. I think I used to think this too, and then my opinion changed over time. I used to think women were pretty much equal to men in strength -- and I got into some fights w/ the boys on this topic in elementary school (back then we were equal in strength). But it's a scale that overlaps, so some men will be weaker than some women, and some women stronger, etc. But even smaller guys have more testosterone.

    I think that while women and men are equal (or should be) in the workplace and in terms of intelligence, there are definite differences (small differences) but important ones. And we might as well use what we've got to help each other out is what I think.

    I do walk alone at night more often than I should and I'm aware that I can take care of myself. But it's nice now and again to not have to worry about someone attacking me.
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    Hm...I like knowing that someone is there for me if I really need it. I appreciate guys who are considerate. I like a lot of the counterplays between masculinity and femininity, too.

    I don't like feeling that I am defined by a gender role that I don't have any say over and if I break those boundaries there's something wrong with me. This is what 'girls' do, this is what 'guys' do. I really don't get that vibe from people often, though.

    There is someone I know who tries to make me depend on him - I can feel it eroding my decision-making abilities. I'm not sure if this is conscious or not. It could just be the fact that I have to deal with a lot of Se and Ti around him, and I'm never going to feel confident in my decisions playing by rules I don't understand half the time. Either way, it makes me avoid him.

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    If you notice, the best relations for ENFp are with the Caregivers. ESTjs, ISFps, and ISTps.

    The ENFp wants a stabilizing force that is grounded, ENFps are self-sufficient but do long for that protective Si.

    What ENFps long for is more Si (someone who can provide them with Si) and who better then the ISTp?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Alliterator View Post
    If you notice, the best relations for ENFp are with the Caregivers. ESTjs, ISFps, and ISTps.

    The ENFp wants a stabilizing force that is grounded, ENFps are self-sufficient but do long for that protective Si.

    What ENFps long for is more Si (someone who can provide them with Si) and who better then the ISTp?
    That was kinda my point too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Alliterator View Post
    If you notice, the best relations for ENFp are with the Caregivers. ESTjs, ISFps, and ISTps.

    The ENFp wants a stabilizing force that is grounded, ENFps are self-sufficient but do long for that protective Si.

    What ENFps long for is more Si (someone who can provide them with Si) and who better then the ISTp?
    I think you described this so well. A "stabilizing force that is grounded" *sigh* Si rocks.

    I had this dream last night, and it was shot like one of those commercials for cotton in black and white on some farm. with this close up of a guy (who looked a bit like heath ledger in brokeback mountain, but straight) digging into dirt and holding it in his hands, and he says "soil" or something, and then kids running through a corn field, and a close up of his hand breaking one of the corn things open "corn..." and it kept just naming real, solid things, "sky" with clouds floating past, etc, some wild horses running, and what not. And I found that dream to be so comforting. maybe I need to meet a farmer, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Only because women seemingly have depended on men in the rich families of the modern world for some hundred years doesn't mean they were happy about it. It also doesn't erase the thousands of years before that, when women and men had to depend on each other. You don't talk personality I think. You talk tradition and social expectations. I don't care about such. I care about feelings and people.
    Going completely OT here, but wanted to say:
    I think you make an excellent point in this post, Mimosa. Particularly about the impact of our ingrained patriarchal society on what women can and can't do. I guess this touches on something I struggle with a lot because of the intersection of my gender and personality.

    Thing is, I genuinely like guys doing all those traditional and socially expected (well, formerly sociall expected) things like walking me to my car, opening doors, carrying heavy bags, offering to pay the bill (though I have to swap doing that each meal to maintain my sense of equality). I like these things, but each time it happens I feel like, am I selling out all the gains of women's progressive movements? So it is both something I enjoy and cringe at enjoying. I don't feel it as impinging on my own independence as a woman, but I'm hyper conscious of it being a product of the diminished/oppressed historical role of women in society. So...internal tension there!

    I know I can take care of myself physically. That's not in question. I know the guys who walk me to my car are probably not going to fare any better than myself if we were attacked. But it isn't about the reality of it at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Going completely OT here, but wanted to say:
    I think you make an excellent point in this post, Mimosa. Particularly about the impact of our ingrained patriarchal society on what women can and can't do. I guess this touches on something I struggle with a lot because of the intersection of my gender and personality.

    Thing is, I genuinely like guys doing all those traditional and socially expected (well, formerly sociall expected) things like walking me to my car, opening doors, carrying heavy bags, offering to pay the bill (though I have to swap doing that each meal to maintain my sense of equality). I like these things, but each time it happens I feel like, am I selling out all the gains of women's progressive movements? So it is both something I enjoy and cringe at enjoying. I don't feel it as impinging on my own independence as a woman, but I'm hyper conscious of it being a product of the diminished/oppressed historical role of women in society. So...internal tension there!

    I know I can take care of myself physically. That's not in question. I know the guys who walk me to my car are probably not going to fare any better than myself if we were attacked. But it isn't about the reality of it at all.
    I see your point here, and while I've always been a super independent person, I think it's important to remember that when men do nice things for women, and women enjoy that, that is not somehow holding the women's movement back. If a guy opens a car door that does not say the woman isn't able to do it herself, it's just that he's doing something nice, the same way we all do nice things for others when we like them.

    And I think this is why everyone is so confused these days about dating. It doesn't help women to "progress" if we are simultaneously telling men to 1) do stuff for us and be a man and 2) don't do anything for us because we can do it ourselves. That leaves men feeling unappreciated and doesn't earn women any extra position of power, does it? If we all just respected each other as human beings, regardless of any minor physical differences whether those are sex or race, I think we would have a lot fewer problems.

    Women can't earn power by somehow forcing men to hand it over -- it isn't theirs to give. Everyone, man or woman, has to take up their own power in life and use it. Once you are in possession of that power, it doesn't matter what anyone else does, or whether they open your door or who pays the bill. If you surround yourself with people who respect you, these things aren't a concern anyway. If he respects you, whether you split the bill every time or only some of the times, or even if you pay more -- doesn't matter. You respect each other. And if he doesn't respect you as a woman or a person than no amount of bill splitting is going to chang that either.

    That's my view anyhow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirena View Post
    The other day an SLE, an SLI and I were having a discussion. Suddenly, the SLE addresses me with a comment/joke that seemed in bad taste and inappropriate to me...too graphic and violent for my taste. I reacted in shock to it, which I think the SLE took as a signal to push even harder and proceeded by asking, in awe, why I didn't find the joke funny. It was obvious that the SLI was able to immediately pick up on my reaction and proceeded to very clearly and firmly ask SLE to stop.
    My parents are both pretty weak when it comes to Se, being LII and EIE, so Se was an almost alien concept to me back when I was a child. That made me an easy target for the Se kids, specially SLEs.

    My best friend at the time was an SLI and I loved him to death. He was my soul mate. He used to defend me in the same way you described it. As long as I felt protected, I was able to resist the shit.

    However, eventually my friend felt it like a chore to protect me and being pragmatic by nature, turned his back on me. In that moment I collapsed. It wasn't the huge pile of shit that I was carrying over my shoulders what crushed me, but the feeling of indifference from whom I considered the pillar supporting my world. I had my parents, but being both intuitive, they were pretty much psychologically absent from my life anyway.

    I became depressed and it got so bad that I spent 10 years "in the shadows". Left the school to never place a foot on it again, stopped having friends, spending full weeks without going out the home. I even spent a full year without even seeing my family, since I lived a nightly life.

    So SLIs take note: it's absolutely fundamental for an IEE to feel protected, but this need only becomes evident when you're in a hostile environment.
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    This is going to be a very light-hearted post but:

    Assuming the general rule (considering physical danger), then the correlation is actually: if you're Big and Strong and Tall and Steady - I'm going to feel safe. If you're Small and Weedy, not so much.

    BUT, in terms of other danger, such as being pyschologically being ganged up upon and who you want to have your back in a hostile environment...I feel more 'secure' with Idolatrie (LSE) than with a lot of guys who I actually feel I will have to support instead. And Idolatrie isn't just female. She's a TINY female. But she's Te-Si and she's an E8 and I just think: 'nah, she can take 'em.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I see your point here, and while I've always been a super independent person, I think it's important to remember that when men do nice things for women, and women enjoy that, that is not somehow holding the women's movement back. If a guy opens a car door that does not say the woman isn't able to do it herself, it's just that he's doing something nice, the same way we all do nice things for others when we like them.

    And I think this is why everyone is so confused these days about dating. It doesn't help women to "progress" if we are simultaneously telling men to 1) do stuff for us and be a man and 2) don't do anything for us because we can do it ourselves. That leaves men feeling unappreciated and doesn't earn women any extra position of power, does it? If we all just respected each other as human beings, regardless of any minor physical differences whether those are sex or race, I think we would have a lot fewer problems.

    Women can't earn power by somehow forcing men to hand it over -- it isn't theirs to give. Everyone, man or woman, has to take up their own power in life and use it. Once you are in possession of that power, it doesn't matter what anyone else does, or whether they open your door or who pays the bill. If you surround yourself with people who respect you, these things aren't a concern anyway. If he respects you, whether you split the bill every time or only some of the times, or even if you pay more -- doesn't matter. You respect each other. And if he doesn't respect you as a woman or a person than no amount of bill splitting is going to chang that either.

    That's my view anyhow.
    I completely agree.

    What annoys me is not the action itself, because often actions are routinised and stem from multiple causal roots, such as habit, education, culture etc. It is the WAY in which an action is carried out and what the actor is IMPLYING ABOUT ME through that manner that, to me, is instructive. It is the implication of weakness that I balk at, not the specific act of being walked with or having a door opened for me. And so many things characterise a single action for me: whether it is consistent with their overall behaviour, their overall expressed attitudes toward women, or whether it exposes them as being sexist, chauvinistic hypocrites.

    Generally, I like having doors opened for me, but I also open doors for other people. I don't like it if you make a big production out of opening the door though, especially if you're behind me and rush up to open the door by pushing in in front of me (has happened on numerous occassions).

    Mutual respect and care, rather than 'protection' per se. Because I'd totally have the guy's back in any situation he felt uncomfortable as well. For ISTps, that would be shielding them from too much Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I don't mean things like opening doors. That's politeness, and it's not gender specific. I do it as well. No matter if it's a woman or a man entering. I see people enjoy this, also men. It's nice to be noticed, and at least in my head this is not to be protective. It' to be polite.
    True, often it is just politeness. But I mean when I know men are doing it because I'm female. Like gesturing me to go into a lift first, even though I'm furthest from the door. Things that I think are nice, but know are done because I'm female. And yeah, completely agree it's not about protectiveness - my issue is more that I enjoy things that differentiate men from women, on the basis that women should be treated in a preferential manner, when so much of what I am about (my academic focus) is gender equality.

    When it comes to paying dinner I can't say that's a big thing where I live cause it is in our culture that you should split. Normally I think the one that invites should be prepared to pay, but if the other person insists, it is impolite to refuse him or her to pay. Some people might not go out with you again if you don't suggest to pay a little. Especially true if you go out as friends of the same gender.
    I always split the bill when going out with friends, irregardless of who is inviting. We're all poor students anyway! I meant on dates, where they are specifically dates. It sounds really silly, but I get annoyed when the guy doesn't at least offer to pay - whether he does or not is immaterial, I'm happy to pay my share, or to swap off taking the whole bill - but if he just presumes we're going to split it, or that I'll pay (though that hasn't actually happened to me yet...), it annoys me. Illogical, isn't it?

    To be polite is not to be protected, is it? I'm thinking of protection like 'someone thinking they are needed and if they are not there the other person might be in danger'. It's their intention that matters. Also I think the next step for such a protection is to 'protect' you from other guys. I had a jealous boyfriend once and he called himself protective. I left him immediately. I felt like property. Protected property. That's extreme, but illustrates what I don't like in other cases: when people stop acting polite to be nice and start acting to control me, I'm very wary of that. I sense intentions.

    But of course I like feeling special! Is that what you all mean?
    I think my issue is that I feel I'm being treated 'special' because I'm a woman, not because I'm an individual or anything to do with me. And that kind of homogeneous identity-based classification makes me feel like a sell-out, because it is exactly that which I argue against when it is to the detriment of women.

    I think I have to revive my disclaimer of being OT because I don't think I was really talking about 'protection' there. And I do agree about intentions being massively significant. What I was trying to encapsulate was my inner conflict regarding actions that were taken because I'm female, whether the person knows me or not. And I'm not saying this happens all the time: the majority of guys don't seem to bother overmuch, but some are more chivalrous, and the rarity makes it stand out more.

    I agree completely on the possessive piece-of-property thing. It's been a year since a guy I dated had this quite scary possessive episode probably in response to another guy after we broke up, and I'm still avoiding him (and going to great lengths to do so). It's demeaning, but it also makes you vulnerable in a way that I do think it particular to women. What I'm trying to say is yeah, I get that dysfunctional possessiveness is bad, but that's really not what I was talking about originally.
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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Feel free to disagree, but I'd rather not be told what I mean.
    I meant I don't believe you and I still don't, you seem too much of hippie (pushing for some ideal) to be telling the truth IMO.

    But whatever, fuck you.

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    I find this thread intriguing, and I'd like to offer up another male ENFp perspective about this. There are many things in this thread that were touched on that I'd like to give my perspective on.

    I think what makes me feel most comfortable is, in fact, stability. Stability does act as a sort of support mechanism for me. It calms me, it connects me, it gives me less to worry about. I think what was being described here as "protection" actually falls in line with my view of stability and support. But, as far as feeling safe protected, not necessarily for me. I'd much rather have company than have someone trying to shelter me.

    Now, as far as gender roles. I grew up in a Beta household. My dad is an ESTp, and my mom an ENFj (though I'm more confident of my dad's type than my mom's type). So, whenever I received Se, I had no choice but to oblige, and did so out of obligation.

    I'm keenly aware of the societal gender roles that seem to exist, and the ones I deem are too strict, I outright reject. For instance, the man should dominate the woman, the man should be the breadwinner... and so on, you know where I'm going with this. There's this... I dunno, I see or hear these sort of gender role structures and I just sort of frown. I see these sort of structures as more of a hindrance than as a support structure.

    I mean this is not to say of course that I don't have responsibility, quite the contrary. I just don't feel to the extent that I have to impose some sort of structure upon a woman to (at least in my eyes) prevent her from doing what she wants to do. If she has the drive to go out and do something ambitious, I will not stop her. If she has a sense of adventure and wants to go and do those things, I will not stop her. If she wants to express herself, whether artistically, creatively, whatever, I will not stop her. In all of these things, she will have my full support, and I will show this to her in a way that is respectful and allows her to flourish.

    But I do feel the need to be gentlemanly to women. And I do it always keeping in mind that I am not doing gentlemanly things to shift the focus to myself. There is no hidden agenda (not in the socionics sense) to do these things. I do gentlemanly things for women because I genuinely care and I do it out of respect. I do these gentlemanly things always keeping in mind that I need to do them respectfully, without fanfare, and with humbleness. I also understand that as a guy, I have responsibilities to be ... well... I say this and I sort of cringe a bit, but to be the head. You see what I mean? These sorts of roles make me a bit uncomfortable, but, I do know that I have to take responsibility for my share of duties.

    I am not a vocal leader. I lead by and have always led by example if in such a position. But relationships to me are more about mutuality than leading/following. I don't feel that I need to tell the girl what I think she needs to do. I value and respect the individuality and the space of the woman. So, I find myself attracted to independently strong and stable women. And this is not because I look for those that can take care of me, or that it releases me from pulling my weight. But because it is a soothing force.

    Being protected to me means feeling stable, feeling like I'm standing on a rock. It means alleviating worry. It means feeling the support of another and giving that to them in return, respectfully and geuninely.


    If you need me to explain anything in more detail, let me know. But, I think this is such an interesting discussion point, especially being a guy ENFp and sort of being caught on the other end of the stereotypical gender role spectrum.
    INFj

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    Also, I should add that I respond similarly when I feel like structures are being imposed on me. I either push away and do them anyway out of spite or get internally angry and frustrated.

    Edit: This also includes when I feel like people impose societal gender roles on me, expecting me to behave or act a certain way because I'm a guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    But, I think this is such an interesting discussion point, especially being a guy ENFp and sort of being caught on the other end of the stereotypical gender role spectrum.
    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    This also includes when I feel like people impose societal gender roles on me, expecting me to behave or act a certain way because I'm a guy.
    Thank you for your post, Tereg. The lack of male input in many discussions about feminism and gender roles in society often frustrates me. But of particular interest is your discussion on some aspects of being male and ENFp. This apparent disjucture between gender and type is dear to my heart, and something I have talked to unefille at length with, but we come at it from diametrically opposite starting points that it is difficult to get past airing grievances.

    I hear you on being uncomfortable but still feeling somehow 'required' to fulfil a certain role - say head of the household. I often feel the inverse of that - the need to hold back and not take on certain roles/behaviours. And the fact that socially constructed gender roles can act as a brake on my instinctive behaviour frustrates me. I know that the limitations are articifical, yet I cannot wholly overcome them. I have learnt that by being outspoken, I will have labels attached to me. Some more offensive than others. And each time I get such a reaction, it affects me and what I am willing to then do. Sometimes it provokes me further, other times I will feel I can only contribute if I couch my words and actions in less aggressive/overt behaviour to somehow 'blunt' what I'm doing. I have a fundamentally female relationship with entering public discussion spaces. (Tendency to ask questions rather than state information and not assume right to occupy public role.)

    And it is exactly as Mimosa wrote earlier - the impact of fictional ideals stays with us long after we close the books. I grew up on a steady diet of Grimms and Hans Christian Anderson, on traditional folktales, graduating to fantasy/sci-fi and Greek mythology. There's a lot of 'different' treatment for men and women in those. I don't read any of those genres anymore, but the 'damage' if you will is already done. The natural tendencies of my type, however (and I may be generalising here, so perhaps it would be safer to say my personal instinctual urges) is not to occupy that more passive and emotionally-connected female role.

    I was recently talking about Bridget Jones Diary with unefille, and why I loathe it so much. Among other reasons, I always found Darcy to be the most sympathetic character. Even in Pride and Prejudice, (and this will be an unpopular opinion!) I always thought his first declaration of intentions/feelings was painful but beautiful and definitely 'enough', and the rejection of that cruel. But as a girl, you just can't identify with the male characters, particularly when you're at a certain age.

    And I mean, I don't want to be male at all. That's so spectacularly missing the point. But the solution that would 'fit' me is to change societal assumptions on gender roles. And that is, to use a massive understatement, difficult. So in the meantime, since I can't change society, I have to make compromises in myself - be uncomfortable with the roles I take on in order to maintain the smooth connection between my type and gender. There's a continual mediation internally - I feel bound by conventions, yet they don't feel natural to me. Which perhaps makes me hyperconscious of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    I hear you on being uncomfortable but still feeling somehow 'required' to fulfil a certain role - say head of the household. I often feel the inverse of that - the need to hold back and not take on certain roles/behaviours. And the fact that socially constructed gender roles can act as a brake on my instinctive behaviour frustrates me. I know that the limitations are articifical, yet I cannot wholly overcome them. I have learnt that by being outspoken, I will have labels attached to me. Some more offensive than others. And each time I get such a reaction, it affects me and what I am willing to then do. Sometimes it provokes me further, other times I will feel I can only contribute if I couch my words and actions in less aggressive/overt behaviour to somehow 'blunt' what I'm doing. I have a fundamentally female relationship with entering public discussion spaces. (Tendency to ask questions rather than state information and not assume right to occupy public role.)
    This is exactly how I feel, except transposing a few phrases

    And the fact that socially constructed gender roles can act as a brake on my instinctive behaviour frustrates me. I know that the limitations are articifical, yet I cannot wholly overcome them. I have learnt that by not being "one of the guys" and being more sensitive, I will have labels attached to me even if unspoken (the quizical eye). Some more offensive than others. And each time I get such a reaction, it affects me and what I am willing to then do. Sometimes it provokes me further, other times I will feel I can only contribute if I suck it up and exert force and lead as I'm "supposed to" and try to be "one of the guys". I have a fundamentally male relationship with entering public discussion spaces (mainly with other guys). (Being steady, supressing my natural inclinations and talking about topics that I know are "safe" topics to talk about.)
    And I grew up in an environment, where my dad was unquestionably the head of the household. However, there were often frustrations with the issue of finances between my dad and my mom -- i.e. my dad feeling like he was pulling most or all of the weight, and because of that bickering was met with heavy resistance. And this was always something I couldn't quite figure out. He seemed to be open to the potential of my mom doing what she desired (she did, after all, have a self-employed commercial graphics business, taught high school art, and other entrepreneurial ventures) but he seemed to use the fact that he was supporting the family the most (financially speaking) and that she wasn't pulling much of anything in as a means to silence any criticism. He allowed her to do these things, but at the same time, he felt like she was wasting her time since it wasn't providing any financial support for the family.

    But, I digress. Growing up, I had always felt, whether unspoken or not, a sort of expectation to carry on that head-of-the-household role. And I'm just reiterating here, but it goes against what I feel comes naturally to me. My focus is really on other ... things. Having to feel like I have to perform in this way frustrates me since it does hamper my natural tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    So in the meantime, since I can't change society, I have to make compromises in myself - be uncomfortable with the roles I take on in order to maintain the smooth connection between my type and gender. There's a continual mediation internally - I feel bound by conventions, yet they don't feel natural to me. Which perhaps makes me hyperconscious of them.
    I feel exactly this way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I feel more 'secure' with Idolatrie (LSE) than with a lot of guys who I actually feel I will have to support instead. And Idolatrie isn't just female. She's a TINY female. But she's Te-Si and she's an E8 and I just think: 'nah, she can take 'em.'
    Sweet!
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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I meant I don't believe you and I still don't, you seem too much of hippie (pushing for some ideal) to be telling the truth IMO.

    But whatever, fuck you.
    Why was that "fuck you" needed?
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    I'm not exactly sure what to say yet, but I certainly feel a reaction to the posts in this thread, so let me try to express it ...
    Roles in our society exist solely by momentum, not necessity.

    I knew a girl who was an excellent welder, enjoyed exchanging the crude banter with the inevitably all-male coworkers, and even at one point taught welding in high school and so had to deal with adolescent males. Yet she was not very masculine - she loved to wear fashionable styles outside of work, and wrote and sang her own songs accompanying herself on guitar that reminded me of Natalie Merchant. She quit her job to become a mother, but that was a decision between her and her husband that included the possibility of him quitting work if she wanted to go back before the child was school-age (and he was the one to make that suggestion). I have no idea whether she liked or resented gestures such as doors being opened for her, but she seemed entirely comfortable being human first and female as a furtheration of that, not as a limitation of it.

    My ex-husband had an admittedly miserable childhood raised by a stern, conservative father and even harsher grandmother. Nonetheless I saw many traditional attitudes to which he clung even as he would logically profess their contradictory nature. For example, he got cut back to part time and so I was accruing more money per week; then I got a raise and was even earning more money per hour. He told me that it hurt his self-esteem because he wanted to be the head of the household - he seemed to think that it should be his earnings that were our foundation, and mine were just supposed to be icing on the cake. I tried to let him know that I didn't think any less of him just because he was earning less, but I also felt compelled to express that his attitude was actually belittling of me, especially considering that I had had to provide my own stability before him. I had a very hard time sympathizing with his protracted bouts of negative self-talk over it, and it ultimately made me lose respect for him.

    Once I fell in love with a woman with two children, and I admit that I felt very protective of her. She had been a single parent for years, existing on not-quite-enough money and never anywhere near enough sleep, and furthermore the girl she dated before me was an abusive drug user that she took way too long to get rid of. I was her best friend for months before I admitted my feelings to myself (and then finally to her), and although I saw her faults I also saw that I couldn't keep myself away from her. I rode in like a rescuer and vowed to be her partner - including as much a second parent to her boys as they would allow me to be. We had an incredibly intense 7 months, as full of adventure like breaking down in the worst neighborhood of Philadelphia as of mundane things like dragging myself out of bed to make lunches for the boys that I knew they probably wouldn't eat because they were embarrassed that we were vegetarians. But I tried to do too much, and I suffered a sudden breakdown, taking everybody including myself by surprise (I think it also had a lot to do with three deaths in the previous year that I never dealt with). When I withdrew, the woman was shattered. She almost suffered her own breakdown having to go back to sleeping only 4 hours a night in order to make ends meet and adjusting back to all the other things that come with being a poor single parent. I was horrified that I put her (back) in that position, but my mental state was so shut down that I couldn't do anything about it. A long time later, we were able to patch our friendship back, and she admitted that she had let me take on too much because it was such a relief that she didn't want to think about it, which combined with me putting myself in the role of protector set us on an unsustainable course.

    I guess thinking about these and other things (god I could just go on and on - I've defied gender roles all my life even though I've never wanted to be a boy) just brings me to the resentful conclusion that in a modern society, gender roles should be actively discouraged. We get to choose our own, and operating in an environment that sets expectations so capriciously can only set us up for added friction when our actual circumstances defy the norm. I don't even give examples for it above, but there were so many awkward moments in my relationship with the single mother because we were both women and one of us was either pushed toward the masculine role because the environment dictated both masc and fem, or even where we were pushed toward feminine when we would otherwise rather just be ourselves beyond gender bias.
    There CAN be an even distribution of roles - but it's not going to be dictated by rules. It has to be a dynamic process engaged by couples who understand their strengths, weaknesses, preferences, the balance of past such negotiations, and the interaction of other elements that may affect these elements. The couple who adopted my daughter are an awesome example. They split their finances, because that's what they've agreed on. They split chores evenly, but because one might prefer a chore less, they often barter and negotiate ("I'll do the dishes if you do the catbox this time"). Neither one of them is the "man" of the house even though they are both men, and neither one is the "femme" partner - one of them enjoys snuggling with the cats more but the other one likes to sew and knit, etc etc ...
    I'm sorry for the really long post that is somewhat OT. But in so many of the responses I read this undercurrent of "well, I don't want to like it, but I keep finding myself feeling like I want it." It really, really bothered me, and it must at least in part be because I found myself in the role of providing it - most demonstrably in my relationship with the single mother - even though I am a woman in what in many ways remains a patriarchal society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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