Video of Smccosker and JuJu

[Expat]

The point I am making is on ethical grounds. Point blank....Niffweed personally attacked Justin and acted very disrespectfully. That is completely out of line. Calling someone a moron is a PERSONAL attack. It falls out of the grounds of an intellectual argument. Niffweed felt that he had been trumped by someone with superior education and then got personal about it. He or ANYBODY on this forum has NO right to do that. I only did it because he provoked Justin first. He deserves to be put in his place. Period.

Would you like to be called a moron?

"Arguably" that wasn't ok?! "Arguably?" Clarify please, Expat.

That said, no member of this forum has any right to call another member a "moron," especially regarding a typing, (a typing which, by the way, has proven to be very popular among those who have seen Sean's videos... Not exactly a 'moronic' typing.)

Expat: I don't believe that I have any more right to call someone a "moron" than anyone here--based on my education or whatever else--but I believe that if provoked in such a manner, as I was, I have every right to respond in any way that I see fit--as I did... Make sense?

Juju: no, that does not make sense. The point that both you and smccosker are failing to address is that you both raised the issue of niffweed's age and education, contrasting that with your Harvard education. The only possible way to intepret that is that both of you have an hierarchical view of people, that is to say, niffweed's age and education make it worse that he called you a moron. In fact, one of you (I forget who) made a point of saying that niffweed was feeling bothered by your education -- which is some sort of projection, imo.

I have asked you both to explain why you think that niffweed's age and education are of any relevance to this, and neither of you have explained.

To answer your question: different people are offended by different things. I don't care about being called a moron by anyone here, regardless of their age or education. I care more about other things; infantile name-calling does not really affect me.

I accept, however, that if you are offended by being called a moron, people should refrain from doing so, niffweed included.

But, I am still waiting for an elaboration on why you both think that his age and education, and yours, have any relevance on the gravity of that; and, that being so, why shouldn't I, with my age and education, have more of a right.

As for the video, lechysupport explained it well.

[implied]

leckysupport's my fave.

[Wynch]

I can't believe this day has come to pass but....

God, I have never seen so much Fe in my time here. Trawling through pages of this shit.

Smccosker seems to keep his body still, just fidgets with things[...]

This doesn't conflict with any temperament, although it's more likely to be representative of EP.

Truth. I do the same. I tend to play with things and channel my energy down to a single point where I play with something in order to split my physical and mental attention in order to focus. This is especially true when I'm tired.

Doesn't strike me like the SLEs I know - they seem to...lean forward more? When their talking there's more...energy from them. Smccosker seems to be 'leaning back' when talking.

Sometimes I lean back when I talk. Sometimes I lean forwards. Depends what the purpose of my sitting there is.

This was something I meant to comment on before and forgot about. The leaning is something I've noticed in EXTps. But only when we get involved in rational arguments or something that sparks our interest as an intellectual practice. When I'm just chilling and shooting the shit, I have the same kind of relaxed body language as Sean did in the video.


Another thing I meant to bring up: Interrupting people is such a stereotypical EXTp habit. When something comes to mind EP forces you to get it out there immediately because of the nature of Extroversion and Static-thinking and EXTps will often feel the need to express their ideas before they lose track of their line of reasoning.

Oh, right, and another thing. Analogies. Sean, you were so quick with the quippy lines (if I recall correctly, I think I brought this up when I chatted about this). ISTps are certainly capable of some witty thinking, but usually it's dead-pan one-liners. And your manner of expressing your bread and butter analogy was very Ti. I'm surprised Steve didn't pick up on it. You seemed to just keep building on the same point, to the extent that you were more or less repeating the same thing over and over in as many different ways as possible to get your point across.

[unefille]

What does this mean? You think Sean is Fe valuing and you don't like it (in which case what you said is misleading), or you think he is not Fe valuing (in which case what you said makes no sense)?

I don't think he's Fe-valuing and I think it makes sense. I won't use a question mark at the end of that sentence, since it seems to shit you.

As for being an idiot (I don't understand a lot of the rudeness that goes on around here, but you seem to take quite a bit of pride in being abrasive and use being an SLE to justify being rude, abrupt and inconsiderate), I stand by my comment about SLEs seeking 'consensus'. You might not agree, but that's what it looks like to me. Consensus by domination. Everyone must agree with you. Why else would you do this constant challenging of others types, Ezra? You'd be happy to sit in your little head and just THINK these people are utter morons, but that's not enough for you. You have to post long threads that go for pages and pages all to prove a point. You want agreement - or at least acknowledgment by the other party that they're wrong. What other people think matters to you, even if it just so you can tell them they're wrong and idiots and you're right and better than them.

To be honest, Ezra, I don't even find you offensive. More...amusing. And kind of bouncy. I don't know, I sort of see you as a rubber-ball, bouncing around a room, smashing it up a little, but kind of pleased with your own energy.

[UDP]

Oh my, so many defenses up. Good luck getting much out of this thread, for now.

[Wynch]

Oh my, so many defenses up. Good luck getting much out of this thread, for now.

QFT

[jessica129]

I don't believe in socionics anymore.

[strrrng]

don't understand a lot of the rudeness that goes on around here, but you seem to take quite a bit of pride in being abrasive and use being an SLE to justify being rude, abrupt and inconsiderate...You'd be happy to sit in your little head and just THINK these people are utter morons, but that's not enough for you. You have to post long threads that go for pages and pages all to prove a point. You want agreement - or at least acknowledgment by the other party that they're wrong. What other people think matters to you, even if it just so you can tell them they're wrong and idiots and you're right and better than them.

To be honest, Ezra, I don't even find you offensive. More...amusing. And kind of bouncy. I don't know, I sort of see you as a rubber-ball, bouncing around a room, smashing it up a little, but kind of pleased with your own energy.

lmao...it's good someone else sees his little facade for what it is.

You're right, it's incredibly amusing. I mean, it's pretty hard to pull off being an ESTp sx/sp 8...they're pretty intense lol...so when Ezra does it, and tries to use those types as excuses (like you said) for being rude and aggressive (even though this "aggression" is the most petty behavior he exhibits), it's like a cartoon...pure entertainment.

Why in the fuck people still buy into this is beyond me.

Oh and Ezra, this is nothing personal.

[jason_m]

No one agrees about Sean's type. What a surprise. There really needs to be a quick and dirty way of identifying one's type - that's quite accurate.

Jason

[dbmmama]

I can't believe this day has come to pass but....



Truth. I do the same. I tend to play with things and channel my energy down to a single point where I play with something in order to split my physical and mental attention in order to focus. This is especially true when I'm tired.



This was something I meant to comment on before and forgot about. The leaning is something I've noticed in EXTps. But only when we get involved in rational arguments or something that sparks our interest as an intellectual practice. When I'm just chilling and shooting the shit, I have the same kind of relaxed body language as Sean did in the video.


Another thing I meant to bring up: Interrupting people is such a stereotypical EXTp habit. When something comes to mind EP forces you to get it out there immediately because of the nature of Extroversion and Static-thinking and EXTps will often feel the need to express their ideas before they lose track of their line of reasoning.

Oh, right, and another thing. Analogies. Sean, you were so quick with the quippy lines (if I recall correctly, I think I brought this up when I chatted about this). ISTps are certainly capable of some witty thinking, but usually it's dead-pan one-liners. And your manner of expressing your bread and butter analogy was very Ti. I'm surprised Steve didn't pick up on it. You seemed to just keep building on the same point, to the extent that you were more or less repeating the same thing over and over in as many different ways as possible to get your point across.

i do all of the above, a lot. i have to be very careful to not interrupt people. yowsa, my mom does it and when we're in a conversation together, it's an interruption fest! since i was aware enuf of what she was doing and saw myself do the same, i went on a rampage to learn to chill out a lot of my natural behaviors. i still do it but catch myself very quickly now or even before it comes out. i'm also a "leaner" in conversations, especially in an intellectually juicy conversation. and on top of it, i'm a HUGE hair twirler and play with my hair and fidget. do these things have to be EXTp or could they be attributed to other Eps or something else?

[Wynch]

No one agrees about Sean's type. What a surprise. There really needs to be a quick and dirty way of identifying one's type - that's quite accurate.

Jason

If people were that simple, life would be incredibly dry and boring.

Also, too many people are willing to make assumptions without taking the time to understand the theoretical basis for socionics as a whole. Understanding comes first. Experience comes second. The reverse only leads to a misuse of the system.

Lastly. We've seen about 15 minutes of Sean and Sean's interactions. And videos will always be posed and only a partial representation of an individual. Like Sean brought up in his video, none of us have spent time getting to know him. We can all only judge on snapshots of what we see of him.

[FDG]

Also, too many people are willing to make assumptions without taking the time to understand the theoretical basis for socionics as a whole. Understanding comes first. Experience comes second. The reverse only leads to a misuse of the system.

This sounds like a bad advice, there is no clearly defined "system" of socionics

[JuJu]

Juju: no, that does not make sense.

I'm not sure what you're driving at... I've tried to answer your questions as best I could, and I will continue to do so now.

The point that both you and smccosker are failing to address is that you both raised the issue of niffweed's age and education, contrasting that with your Harvard education. The only possible way to intepret that is that both of you have an hierarchical view of people, that is to say, niffweed's age and education make it worse that he called you a moron.

Expat, think of it like this: someone calls you a moron; in response, you offer evidence supporting that you are not a moron...

I do not believe that Niffweed's education makes it "worse" that he called me moron... Frankly, I just found it objectionable that he did so in the first place--and I do not see why this is so hard for people to understand. Moron is, after all, not a congenial term.

Moron means: "a person of subnormal intelligence." In my response to him, I offered up reasons why I might not be a "moron."

I have asked you both to explain why you think that niffweed's age and education are of any relevance to this, and neither of you have explained.

To answer your question: different people are offended by different things. I don't care about being called a moron by anyone here, regardless of their age or education. I care more about other things; infantile name-calling does not really affect me.

That is fine--but that is you. What you don't seem to understand is that Niffweed's comment hurt my feelings, and that's why I responded to it.

My initial comment did not deserve the petty response it received from Niffweed... After he called me a moron twice, I felt inclined to offer up some evidence as to why I might not be a moron. End of story.

I accept, however, that if you are offended by being called a moron, people should refrain from doing so, niffweed included.

Thank you. I appreciate this.

But, I am still waiting for an elaboration on why you both think that his age and education, and yours, have any relevance on the gravity of that; and, that being so, why shouldn't I, with my age and education, have more of a right.

Expat, I hope you understand now. Honestly. Genuinely.

[dbmmama]

lmao...it's good someone else sees his little facade for what it is.

You're right, it's incredibly amusing. I mean, it's pretty hard to pull off being an ESTp sx/sp 8...they're pretty intense lol...so when Ezra does it, and tries to use those types as excuses (like you said) for being rude and aggressive (even though this "aggression" is the most petty behavior he exhibits), it's like a cartoon...pure entertainment.

Why in the fuck people still buy into this is beyond me.

Oh and Ezra, this is nothing personal.

i agree with you and unefille on the bouncy ball thing of Ezra.

[FDG]

awww, new ezra's nickname, the cutesy bouncy ball

[Wynch]

This sounds like a bad advice, there is no clearly defined "system" of socionics

If you take the time to explore the theoretical underpinnings, a system emerges. People may not always agree on things, but most of the people who can't agree on things also can't coherently express their understanding, which makes it invaluable. Like I said to Nick earlier, you have to put up or shut up (thanks Nick, btw). If you can't identify what Ni is, then you can't claim someone uses Ni. If you don't know why IP is IP then how do you know it's IP? If you don't understand the logical premise for something then all you're doing is trusting someone else to think for you, and thus your opinion holds less weight and can only be trusted from an observational and not an interpretational stand-point.

[JuJu]

No one agrees about Sean's type. What a surprise. There really needs to be a quick and dirty way of identifying one's type - that's quite accurate.

Jason

You are the most clear-sighted person here. I dont care what type u are, but I love you

[strrrng]

not everything always has to be perfectly articulated. Maybe for a discussion with someone, but a lot of significant stuff is non-verbal and intuitive.

but I'm biased, right?

[JuJu]

This sounds like a bad advice, there is no clearly defined "system" of socionics

go to socionics.us

[dbmmama]

not everything always has to be perfectly articulated. Maybe for a discussion with someone, but a lot of significant stuff is non-verbal and intuitive.

but I'm biased, right?

you may be biased, but right on.

and i see a butterfly in your avatar.

[Ezra]

I don't think he's Fe-valuing and I think it makes sense. I won't use a question mark at the end of that sentence, since it seems to shit you.

As for being an idiot (I don't understand a lot of the rudeness that goes on around here, but you seem to take quite a bit of pride in being abrasive and use being an SLE to justify being rude, abrupt and inconsiderate), I stand by my comment about SLEs seeking 'consensus'. You might not agree, but that's what it looks like to me. Consensus by domination. Everyone must agree with you. Why else would you do this constant challenging of others types, Ezra? You'd be happy to sit in your little head and just THINK these people are utter morons, but that's not enough for you. You have to post long threads that go for pages and pages all to prove a point. You want agreement - or at least acknowledgment by the other party that they're wrong. What other people think matters to you, even if it just so you can tell them they're wrong and idiots and you're right and better than them.

To be honest, Ezra, I don't even find you offensive. More...amusing. And kind of bouncy. I don't know, I sort of see you as a rubber-ball, bouncing around a room, smashing it up a little, but kind of pleased with your own energy.

I think this is actually quite a good analysis of my behaviour.

I apologise. I'll try to be more considerate of others in the future.

I don't believe in socionics anymore.

It's probably better that way.

lmao...it's good someone else sees his little facade for what it is.

You're right, it's incredibly amusing. I mean, it's pretty hard to pull off being an ESTp sx/sp 8...they're pretty intense lol...so when Ezra does it, and tries to use those types as excuses (like you said) for being rude and aggressive (even though this "aggression" is the most petty behavior he exhibits), it's like a cartoon...pure entertainment.

Why in the fuck people still buy into this is beyond me.

Oh and Ezra, this is nothing personal.

I know, I know. You're just expressing your viewpoint.

However, I think you missed the jist of unefille's post. She wasn't claiming that I'm being pretentious or putting an act on, as you believe I am doing; simply that I'm acting negatively towards others and using a type to justify my behaviour. Which is fair enough; I completely see where she's coming from.

Yes controlled aggression... controlled violence... controlled behaviour. LSIs play by the rules of their system. LSIs control their ideas and behaviour, they don't strive to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive. Only if aggression is an integral part of their world view.

The army is one such world view. Another one is Greenpeace. That also doesn't mean they wouldn't use force to restore what the perceive as a peacefull state of "no aggression".

Good point.

[jason_m]

If people were that simple, life would be incredibly dry and boring.

It seems that the MBTI can do it. I'm not sure if it is as accurate as its enthusiasts would like to believe, but even if you were to go by the profiles alone, it's much easier to identify your type; its beauty is its simplicity. Socionics has too much unproven theory that supposedly fits together. It's really necessary that some incisive people come in and reform the system - figure out what is important, what is valid, and what is neither of these things. What good is a personality system if no one can identify their type?

Jason

[dbmmama]

Yes controlled aggression... controlled violence... controlled behaviour. LSIs play by the rules of their system. LSIs control their ideas and behaviour, they don't strive to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive. Only if aggression is an integral part of their world view.

The army is one such world view. Another one is Greenpeace. That also doesn't mean they wouldn't use force to restore what the perceive as a peacefull state of "no aggression".

whoa, this does sound like me and my "greenpeace" is my idealogical way of parenting and living my life. i have and will fight for it.

[FDG]

go to socionics.us

That's not a system, and even if it is, it's exclusively one perspective out of many

If you can't identify what Ni is, then you can't claim someone uses Ni

That's rather tatuological. What I disagree with is that a clear and unambiguos definition of observable characteristics of Ni exists. By this token, it cannot be claimed that somebody does not univocally identify Ni.

Anyways, I have some trouble understanding why people here are giving me advice on socionics reading. I've read machine-translated all the russian articles section of socioniko.net, thank you.

[smccosker]

It seems that the MBTI can do it. I'm not sure if it is as accurate as its enthusiasts would like to believe, but even if you were to go by the profiles alone, it's much easier to identify your type; its beauty is its simplicity. Socionics has too much unproven theory that supposedly fits together. It's really necessary that some incisive people come in and reform the system - figure out what is important, what is valid, and what is neither of these things. What good is a personality system if no one can identify their type?

Jason

I love you

[dbmmama]

I love you

fe

[smccosker]

That's not a system, and even if it is, it's exclusively one perspective out of many

if so socionics is a theory that can be interpreted in any way by anybody...and in other words complete bullshit. BUT, it is not...where did you learn about socionics from???? socioniko.net??? if not did you pull it out of your ass? or is ur head too far up it?

[implied]

if so socionics is a theory that can be interpreted in any way by anybody...and in other words complete bullshit. BUT, it is not...where did you learn about socionics from???? socioniko.net??? if not did you pull it out of your ass? or is ur head too far up it?

he learned it at harvard.

[smccosker]

he learned it at harvard.

instead of being jealous of not being able to go to harvard like juju, stop dissecting socionics and go back to school

[Wynch]

It seems that the MBTI can do it. I'm not sure if it is as accurate as its enthusiasts would like to believe, but even if you were to go by the profiles alone, it's much easier to identify your type; its beauty is its simplicity. Socionics has too much unproven theory that supposedly fits together. It's really necessary that some incisive people come in and reform the system - figure out what is important, what is valid, and what is neither of these things. What good is a personality system if no one can identify their type?

Jason

What good is a personality system if all you're doing is reading something that describes you? If you know who you are, why do you need to read it. The beauty of socionics is intertype relations and understanding others.

@Nick: Certainly you can intuitively recognize and understand things, I'm definitely not one to argue that point, but if you can't say what something is, how can you say that someone is using it? You can say that someone acts a certain way, you can observe features, but you don't know what that signifies and attribute it to a function unless you know and understand what the functions are. And unless you have a logical basis for knowing what a function is, all you're doing is applying a your own label based on your own structure of observations. That has nothing to do with socionics. Socionics is a theory and has a logical basis therein. If you're not applying the theory and you're not following the logic of it, then you're not using socionics. Doesn't mean you're wrong in what you observe, but you're not using socionics.

[implied]

instead of being jealous of not being able to go to harvard like juju, stop dissecting socionics and go back to school

you're asking people to dissect it. and you're waiting until you get an answer that backs up what you previously believe. fwiw no one needs a formal education to learn socionics (which is what makes it a beautiful playground for ANYONE - it doesn't even exclude you on the basis that you don't have a formal education.) apparently formal education hasn't helped juju much.

[smccosker]

you're asking people to dissect it. and you're waiting until you get an answer that backs up what you previously believe. fwiw no one needs a formal education to learn socionics (which is what makes it a beautiful playground for ANYONE - it doesn't even exclude you on the basis that you don't have a formal education.) apparently formal education hasn't helped juju much.

get a life

[implied]

get a life

go read.

[Wynch]

Well, I'm liking the case for ESXp more and more...

[JuJu]

apparently formal education hasn't helped juju much.

??

what did I write/say that you took so personally..? This is just petty. Please stop.

[strrrng]

dude isn't beta lol...he has already expressed his distaste for the way ESTps use Fe

Se-ESFp

[strrrng]

what did I write/say that you took so personally..? This is just petty. Please stop.

Just forget about it.

FUCK EM, FUCK EM FUCK EM, EVEN IF THEY'RE CELIBATE

or something...

[jason_m]

What good is a personality system if all you're doing is reading something that describes you? If you know who you are, why do you need to read it. The beauty of socionics is intertype relations and understanding others.

So a system that is (empirically) valid and focuses only on what's important only "describes you"? If that's the case, then why be interested in personality typing at all - a valid system only describes you, and an invalid one is a lie?

Jason

[jessica129]

dude isn't beta lol...he has already expressed his distaste for the way ESTps use Fe

Se-ESFp

oh my jesus.

just wow.

[strrrng]

oh my jesus.

just wow.

umm...what?