Fi gone bad :0

[Rubicon]

How do Fi egos (particularly Fi dominants) rationalise away bad behaviour of their own against their ethical standards? Would they feel the need to readjust their moral code to allow for their actions? Or maybe they just bear the guilt?

[Rubicon]

Paranoia?

What do you mean?

[BLauritson]

In my limited experience, they usually feel guilty about it afterwards. I wish I had more to say on the matter, but alas noooooo.

[Rubicon]

As I always mean well, I often felt very misunderstood as a child. I think I sometimes thought people really just wanted to pick a fight with me when questionning my motives. I guess that could develop into real paranoia.

Also Fi in use in Fe-environments could feed paranoia, couldn't it?

You always always mean well? Don't you ever deliberately do things that go against your ethical standards?

[duality is cringe]

Possibly they view it as necessary to accomplish something (circumstances or other's actions brought them to this point) or believe their own actions aren't 'as bad' compared to the actions of others involved.

Your question is vague as is my response.

[redbaron]

As I always mean well, I often felt very misunderstood as a child. I think I sometimes thought people really just wanted to pick a fight with me when questionning my motives. I guess that could develop into real paranoia.

Also Fi in use in Fe-environments could feed paranoia, couldn't it?

Yeah. My mother is Fi with the other three of us being Fe and I think she grew to really think that it was three against one at times. She always meant well but was often misinterpreted (usually by my brother but sometimes by all three of us).

[UDP]

How do Fi egos (particularly Fi dominants) rationalise away bad behaviour of their own against their ethical standards? Would they feel the need to readjust their moral code to allow for their actions? Or maybe they just bear the guilt?

With EIIs, I've seen them feel guilty.
Fi+Ne can actually be an extremely brutal way to look at the world, because you have to see things from so many different ways.
In a more extreme case, I saw one throw away their "morality" completely. The results of that vary depending on the person. Sometimes they can pretend like they don't have it or don't care - or at least that is what it can seem like - but I always sense a sort of guilt with them. To be honest though, EIIs can be extremely close to the vest about how they really feel about many things, especially personal things, so I can't profess that I know much about this. I would suggest that like any type, it varies somewhat on a personal basis.

ESIs I've seen "guilty" much less, at least in the EII sort of way. ESI's have this air of "yeah, that sucked - but I'm doing something else now" or "Yeah, that was a shitty moment, but oh well". It may not necessarily affect them less, but you'll of course get a more Se vibe from the ESIs.

That's what I've seen, in terms of my limited real life experience, with those types. You should look to the dominants for better comments.

[Wittmont]

How do Fi egos (particularly Fi dominants) rationalise away bad behaviour of their own against their ethical standards? Would they feel the need to readjust their moral code to allow for their actions? Or maybe they just bear the guilt?

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

[Rubicon]

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

Interesting. Are you thinking of a specific type or types?

[munenori2]

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

Wow, sounds pretty shitty to be that person.

[FDG]

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me too, from the outside (of course the person hirself might perceive it differently).

[UDP]

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

Wow, that's a good description. Not always applicable, but it's an extension of the "extreme situation" I described in my post - I've seen it, a little bit.

[Wittmont]

This is very interesting, where do you have these observations from? I could never imagine the Fi moral code adjusting like you say. Is there a combination of functions in action in your example? Also, if the moral code is adjusted, why would the subject lower their self esteem? I find myself having the opposite problem: as my moral code is so strict, I can't ever be good enough, so I always have to fight to prevent my self esteem from going down. Wouldn't a person gone bad like you tell be the opposite, not longer fighting for a self? As if you adjust your moral code, you are no longer 'bad' in your own eyes. You become untouchable-a God-as you make the rules. I don't think your description is Fi alone if it happens. I also think these are other problems that are more common, but I don't know many Fi egos, so I don't have examples to lean on.

Obviously there was a lot going on in the above description, what I described was just a sketchy outline.

As I see it the overly strict internal moral code is part of the problem. Oversensitivity here easily leads to low self esteem and a feeling of inadequacy, no matter how good the person really is it is never enough in their eyes. For example someone (like a parent) may have put excessive demands or expectations on that person as a child, and the person never really came to terms with that.

Clearly in an example as extreme as I gave a lot of functions are involved, and such a process doesn't happen overnight but as a series of personal disasters/poor decisions over a period of time. A person like that must fight for the self or there will be nothing left. There is a continuous battle. And yes there is a God like quality to them, at least for a little while, while they play one party against another, but it doesn't really help. In the end it is counterproductive as the games are easy to see through and it only further erodes their self esteem, because they feel they are betraying their friends while they value loyalty above all. Their self esteem is lowered because they are doing is wrong in their own judgement (they attack their own Fi), if they no longer are able to feel remorse it is sociopathic behaviour and as such outside any moral dilemma's of right and wrong. But that is not the case here.

Perhaps paradoxically, and I think this is because ultimately they are not evil, they are rather easy to see through, they have loyal friends who support them.

[reckoner]

From what I have seen they rationalize and adjust their moral code to allow for what they feel they need at the moment. "Because I was hurt this way in the past I am entiteled to allow myself this now... (even if I know it will hurt X or Y or several others)" The price is payed with lowered self esteem leading to a bad circle where they do more 'bad' things they feel they need in order to feel more positive about themselves, at least for the moment, which further erodes their self image. They can then overcompensate by becoming very rigid and clinging even harder to quadra values creating very complicated situations they find it hard to untangle themselves from. Eventually they become like hollowed out shells with a dark blackness inside, at least in their own eyes. They see little positive about themselves even if there obviously is that too.

Ding Ding Ding! Bingo!

[discojoe]

I don't rationalize it. There are times when I slip up and feel bad, though I don't always apologize if I'm too proud. I practically never do something I think is wrong, consciously and deliberately. It's usually after losing my temper, getting really irritated, etc. If I'm being mean to you though, odds are I don't think I'm wrong in doing so.

[Rubicon]

I can kind of relate to this, at least from when I was a child, but I'd say it is more of a healthy (but self protecting) Fi, not a Fi gone bad or changing moral codes the way described by Wittmont. If Fi feels bad, guilt will come, and eventually lower self esteem.

In my case, I started to self destruct when I stopped myself from being mean at all. I don't say it shouldn't be a good thing to do, but I didn't do it in a good way. I suddenly started to accept others being mean to me, as I felt I would be mean if I stood up for myself. I always felt so much stronger, faster and smarter than the others, so I would always win any "battle" if I tried to. I stopped myself from saying things that could hurt others, thinking that such "victories" were bad, as I so obviously would win, even if I didn't start the fight. Instead of finding a healthier way to deal with conflicts, I started to avoid them and to forgive whatever happened to me, just avoiding people who hurt me. I've become much more of a loner because of this. I hope I can change this in a good way now that I understand it, but I'm a little lost in what is "my" fault and what is not. I feel everything is my fault. If someone is mean, doesn't that come from something I did bad first? Also, I don't really know how to deal with conflicts. I am so lost.

If you feel I'm an idiot at this state, feel free, cause I sure feel like one myself.

It seems to me that an Fi ego would feel more confident in knowing who is to blame in specific situations. And "I don't really know how to deal with conflicts." - how so? Emotional conflicts? Physical conflicts? In what way do you think you use Fi?

[Rubicon]

I'm sorry. I just wrote a long answer to you about how my moral code works and exactly what my rules are, but it just got too personal, so I deleted it. I hope someone else can jump in if they feel more open, wanting to share their moral code. I just couldn't. My inner life is very private to me, and I feel I've already said too much. It's anyways already there in my last answer, just not in details. However, I don't want to hurt others and I don't want to use my strengths for revenge. Those are two very important "moral codes" my Fi dictates me to follow. At the same time my Fi makes it possible for me to feel and understand the other person. It means I'll often end up comforting people who hurt me. My ex-boyfriend cheated on me, and when I discovered, he broke into tears. I knew he felt bad, and I decided to keep my pain inside, not throwing it at the other person who clearly was in pain as well. I wouldn't have followed my moral code if I didn't comfort him. It took days and weeks until he got back on his feet. It doesn't matter how wrong he was, I needed to be "good". I also questioned my own role in his choice to cheat on me. What was wrong with me? What was wrong with our relation?

It's not always about personal things neither, it's about things in others or in society as well. I tend to see both sides of any conflict, so I often find it hard to decide who's to blame.

I thought that was more an Fe-type dilemna.

Thanks for explaining, Mimosa. (c:

[Khamelion]

The only way I'll feel bad about bad behavior is if I intentionally did it. When I have good intentions and end up doing something wrong...as in upsetting someone or causing some other sort of bad reaction...I will sort of get into a frenzy of trying to make it clear that it wasn't my intention and I'm frantically try to fix whatever happened. I'll feel bad about it sort of...but if there is nothing to be done to fix it than I don't see the point in dwelling on my mistake.

I often make mistakes because...well take what discojoe said for example. He says he hardly ever does anything that he feels is wrong. I work in pretty much the same way, EXCEPT I just do/say things that pop into my head, and then depending on the reaction I am forced to think about what I did and THEN I'm forced to worry about if it was right or wrong and I just wasn't aware. Usually my opinions on right and wrong are not the same as those in the Fe-valuing environment I've been residing in and this causes many problems for me and my mentality in general. It makes me paranoid, it makes me over-analytical...it makes me neurotic and constantly having to worry about being myself. So...I usually just suppress myself until I burst out with...myself.... and offend everyone around me all over again. Then I spend the next bout of suppression to patch up the damage.

It sucks that I can cater to the Fe-valuers that I have around me all the time, because of my knowledge of socionics and the fact that everyone deals with stimulus different in general....but they make no effort to cater to my value system or me in general. Buuuut that sounds like I'm saying "Woe is me those meanie Fe people waaaahhh!"...it isn't that serious. Its just the way it is. If they don't see the point then they're not going to entertain the thought...just how I don't entertain the thoughts of other functions they might use...

[Rubicon]

Thanks Kioshi - really interesting. I guess it's got to do with IEIs looking for Ti and IEEs resisting being Ti-ified. (c: