Vero's Turn

[Wynch]

I never thought I would do this, but I'm looking for help in objectively re-evaluating my type. While I'm quite certain that I acted very much like an ENTp in the past and probably thought that way too, I'm realizing that the current Vero and the old Vero are not at all the same. I'm kind of at a crossroads where I don't really know what type I am anymore and I simply can't objectively sort out the information myself without projecting the past onto the present.

If people would be willing to help out, I'll try and remain as objective and honest as possible in order to make this a reasonable undertaking. We've sort of discussed my type on stickam in the past in a pretty lackluster fashion and trying to remember everything that was brought up is difficult. By gathering everyone's opinions in a thread I'm hoping to be able to look at things and maybe piece a picture together.

I'm not even sure what information to supply anymore because it's just too easy to formulate a description that fits into whatever niche I desire. In that light, it's probably best that you either post your own opinions that you've garnered at present or ask me questions that I can answer directly.

Cheers guys, your help is appreciated.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

What's in it for me if I help you?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Also just from that post you don't sound all that alpha... more delta or even gamma. Life is a tragedy for those that feel and comedy for those that think? Not always.... oh I like to criticize common sayings. =D

[XoX]

Question: are you dead serious with this thread or not?

Anyways, I am not ready to question your NT nature yet. Try to figure out whether you are alpha or gamma first. And forget about your past if it confuses you. Concentrate on the present. And try not to focus on details. Details are and will be conflicting.

[Creepy-bg]

whatever type makes you happy baby... you're still hot

[Ezra]

It's like Joy always said:

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS IF YOU ARE TE/FI OR TI/FE NE/SI OR SE/NI THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO WORK OUT

[Wynch]

What's in it for me if I help you?

Nothing? If you don't want to help me then why don' you fuck off from my thread? I thought I asked (rather politely too) for help, not for pointless commentary.

And it's not alpha because...? I mean you need to back up your statements, you realize.

And "not always" is hardly a critical comment. You may wish to do some re-evaluating yourself on your pot-stirring, attention-seeker attitude before you start your B&D show in a thread that has nothing to do with you, because quite frankly I find it immensely contrived and if you keep it up, I WILL criticize you and tell you exactly what I think.

Question: are you dead serious with this thread or not?

Anyways, I am not ready to question your NT nature yet. Try to figure out whether you are alpha or gamma first. And forget about your past if it confuses you. Concentrate on the present. And try not to focus on details. Details are and will be conflicting.

I'm quite serious, XoX. It's been bothering me lately because I have a course, and sense of purpose, in life right now, but suddenly my sense of self is totally out the window. So much so that I can hardly even pinpoint definite characteristics in myself. It feels like I'm trying to catch butterflies in a thick fog.

The one thing I feel reasonably sure about is that I'm from alpha/delta, because I feel almost as sure as I can be that I'm Ne/Si. That being said, is if someone presents a good argument to the contrary, I'll obviously try and readjust my stance.

whatever type makes you happy baby... you're still hot

Haha, oh BG <3. No worries, I'm not in a crisis state or waning in self confidence. I'm just a little lost.

It's like Joy always said:[blah blah blah choose Ti/Fe or Fi/Te and Ne/Si or Se/Ni]

Sorry Joy, I'm not trying to be offensive with my blah blahs, just don't feel like scrolling down to see what the actual quote is.

And like I said in my OP, I'm having trouble remaining objective in my own evaluation, so it's very difficult for me at this point to collect all the relevant information and say what I value more. I often feel like I don't truly understand Se/Ni, so it's hard for me to really say that it's NOT me, but I'm pretty sure I'm Ne/Si, like I stated above. It's the rational functions that screw me up, because the rational me is simply not adding up to anything concrete for me anymore.

[Wynch]

Yeah, I've been wondering about ENFp myself. At first I thought it was simply ludicrous, but the more I think about it, the more it might be a possibility. Although it then becomes difficult to explain my superb nerdiness. But that being said, I've been going on a Te rage (or what appears to be a Te rage to me) lately.

[munenori2]

Hmm, I'm giving some serious thought here to drum up some possible alternatives. I can't really see anything other than an Ne/Si quadra at this point, but given how little I understand, not sure how much weight I can put there. I'm inclined to put you as a thinking type because, frankly, when you discuss something there's much more of a logical progression that I can see in the way you make your points, or address someone else's. So proposing a type that would have a thinking function in the PoLR and HA doesn't seem too likely to me (though counter examples of this could be like esper or loki who seem to do alright with their HAs).

An extraverted approach to the world seems pretty clear to me. I'm not sure how to account for whether you are intuitive or sensing, other than I think you desire Si possibly. In the past I think my concept of intuition was pretty well muddled with introversion, so not much there I can say that I would feel confident about. EP as a temperament I don't see much cause to question at this moment, but temperaments are hard for me to spot. Maybe I can think of something else later. Sorry if this isn't much help.

[aestrivex]

based on your way of handling some recent discussions on the topic of socionics, your thinking style has seemed predominantly Ti-ish.

a couple of brief, innocuous excerpts to evaluate semantically:

People certainly have many opinions, but when I've tried to talk to people there appears to be little consistent thought, which tells me that no one is building logical or empirically justifiable methods of defining the IMs.

...their typings have no semblance of legitimized logic.

They aren't applying a system or a theory...

I've taken some time myself to try and find a logical understanding, but I find that my abstract understanding is very difficult to legitimize in conversation.

that, and your reliance on steve's explanations is very telling also.

[Ezra]

Are you definitely Ti/Fe, Vero (in your eyes)?

[Wynch]

Don't know. If it were that easy then I would say I was definitely alpha and then I would be content with ILE, lol.

[XoX]

I'm quite serious, XoX. It's been bothering me lately because I thinhave a course, and sense of purpose, in life right now, but suddenly my sense of self is totally out the window. So much so that I can hardly even pinpoint definite characteristics in myself. It feels like I'm trying to catch butterflies in a thick fog.

Wow. Sounds a lot like me Sometimes I wonder whether it is even worth finding the self again. What exactly would it add to my life? A course and sense of purpose could be just enough. Perhaps getting rid of the concept of self is a something to be desired instead of trying to desperately find it.

The one thing I feel reasonably sure about is that I'm from alpha/delta, because I feel almost as sure as I can be that I'm Ne/Si. That being said, is if someone presents a good argument to the contrary, I'll obviously try and readjust my stance.

This is not really an argument but perhaps it is better to stick to the conclusion you arrived at when your self was still around The only other thing I can come up with is that an extrovert is more likely to lose their self than an introvert.

[XoX]

I also consider the possibility you are just joking, and then you probably are Alpha...

This was pretty much my point when asking whether she is really serious For some reason I couldn't tell for sure.

[aestrivex]

You are all fundamentally missing the point. I've been observant for far too long of both the chat and the forum seeing all the inadequacies in typing, and have finally formulized my results of all your types. The intertype relations I've been seeing are also flawless IMO... and correspond perfectly with socionics. Don't be surprised if my results are dead on.

what are your results?

[Steve]

Why then wouldn't IEEs be nerdy? At least Ne-subtypes as their Te is stronger.

Ne ENFp has popped into my mind from time to time regarding Vero, although never with total certainty. I've been going back and forth between that and ENTp the last two weeks.

Sometimes Ne ENFps can be so Te-oriented that they can almost seem like T-types. And think about it, if you have someone who uses a lot of Ne and Te, it will almost seem "NT-ish"

A friend of mine is Ne ENFp and I first thought he was ENTj because I saw he was an N-type and uses so much Te, but after a while it became obvious that he was heavily Ne/Si.

[Logos]

It would be a joke only Alphas would appreciate, so then Alpha. The not at all funny, totally without sense humor of both my ILE and ESE family is my main reason for thinking I'm not Alpha.

Er?

[Wynch]

It would be a joke only Alphas would appreciate, so then Alpha. The not at all funny, totally without sense humor of both my ILE and ESE family is my main reason for thinking I'm not Alpha.

Well I won't deny that my sense of humour sometimes runs to the deadpan ridiculous, but in this case I'm definitely not joking. There would be a little more satire in my OP if I were kidding. I would try a lot hard to be an uber-keener.

Thanks for you comments so far. If anyone has an actual case to make, feel free.

[Wynch]

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring your comments, but they were kind of circumstantial. There hasn't been much yet in the way of clear-cut evidence for any given type. So far that only thing I've gotten that hits the point directly is Niff who provided evidence of Ti, in his opinion. It's not that your point was invalid, but the crazy jokes are more Ne-oriented than ENFp specific. And the F could or could not be true in me. I find that I'm very logic-oriented, but like Steve brings up, that might be an HA-related thing. Though again, I'm not sure I agree with that style of thinking. And being sure about ILE is kind of circumstantial to my youth, but I've been changing a lot since then :S

[Rubicon]

Er what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhu

[munenori2]

Ne ENFp has popped into my mind from time to time regarding Vero, although never with total certainty. I've been going back and forth between that and ENTp the last two weeks.

Sometimes Ne ENFps can be so Te-oriented that they can almost seem like T-types. And think about it, if you have someone who uses a lot of Ne and Te, it will almost seem "NT-ish"

A friend of mine is Ne ENFp and I first thought he was ENTj because I saw he was an N-type and uses so much Te, but after a while it became obvious that he was heavily Ne/Si.

Generally speaking though, anyone whose working that much with their HA, wouldn't it come across as kind of weird or off-putting? Also, I remember you making a similar remark about how Ne-INFj's can appear Si dominant sort of the same. Does that have to do with the subtype itself or just people stressing their HA functions?

[aestrivex]

Well for one thing, I don't believe that there are any real ILIs, SLEs or SEIs who would take an active interest in socionics or participate on this forum.

what is your favorite kind of land o frost honey mustard smoked turkey?

[Steve]

Generally speaking though, anyone whose working that much with their HA, wouldn't it come across as kind of weird or off-putting? Also, I remember you making a similar remark about how Ne-INFj's can appear Si dominant sort of the same. Does that have to do with the subtype itself or just people stressing their HA functions?

There seems to be a subtype connection, as there seem to be different emphases in subtypes. The way a Ne ENFp would approach Te is in a very exploratory, "give me more, more, more" mode. They actively seek it out and know it quite well, and love to dabble in it for it's own sake. That's the distinction for a Ne ENFp's Te compared to a Te ESTj's Te. Te ESTjs just DO Te, it's their way of being, they use it in a honed, precise way. Ne ENFps on the other hand like to thoroughly explore the Te of everything, for it's own sake, and has a much more encompassing feel for them, since they are out exploring its horizons as opposed to just "being it" and using it to live.

Either way, looking at an Ne ENFp with such a focus on Te will almost make them appear like a "T-type".

[Wynch]

I find Niffs statements not relevant as I think you could have showed that side as a result of trying to appear ILE. However you appreciated Steves logical interpretation of my Te-nerdy comment over my original
point. It seems you didn't understand it before logic was added. That points to ILE.

The conversation with Niff was in the past week and was definitely just me talking naturally. I was lamenting on my frustration that there seemed to be little real clarity in socionics from my point of view. And Steve didn't clarify your Te-nerdy comment to me, I still don't see how Te is more nerdy than Ti. Steve mere explained how I could possibly be Ne/Fi and still appear to be logically minded. But again, I'm not so sure about that.

[Steve]

I always thought one of the manifestations of Ti was being able to manage and perhaps articulate your thoughts in a very clear, concise manner. I'm not sure anymore. I've always been able to read your posts quite well, Vero. You are convincing and very articulate. If you are Te valuing, then my whole basis for what Ti is goes out the window. I'm coming to think that what I have been attributing to Ti may indeed be some other factor, such as how smart a person is. I've noticed that level of intelligence can definately put a monkey wrench in the proceedings of determining your type.

Absolutely right. And it makes me think that you could still be Fe ISFp but since you're really intelligent your Ti kicks ass anyway.

It's true, I have been able to understand Vero's thought process very naturally and seems effortless to understand, which is why I'm not yet sold on something outside of Alpha.

[Wynch]

I wish you wouldn't make statements like that without giving some justification. I am quite curious as to what evidence you can dredge up to support yourself. We can take this to a new thread if mn0good feels we are hijacking hers.

Jxrtes is pretending to be Phaedrus ^-^

Thanks for your words of wisdom, dolphin. I AM pretty kick ass, but I have little in the way of experiential knowledge, which sometimes comes in the way. The need to balance theory with practice is frustrating. I do feel a lot better though, thanks dolphin. I'll give what you've said some thought.

[Wynch]

You are an idiot.

Case in point.

[JuJu]

There seems to be a subtype connection, as there seem to be different emphases in subtypes. The way a Ne ENFp would approach Te is in a very exploratory, "give me more, more, more" mode. They actively seek it out and know it quite well, and love to dabble in it for it's own sake. That's the distinction for a Ne ENFp's Te compared to a Te ESTj's Te. Te ESTjs just DO Te, it's their way of being, they use it in a honed, precise way. Ne ENFps on the other hand like to thoroughly explore the Te of everything, for it's own sake, and has a much more encompassing feel for them, since they are out exploring its horizons as opposed to just "being it" and using it to live.

Either way, looking at an Ne ENFp with such a focus on Te will almost make them appear like a "T-type".

This is a nice description, Steve... If you get time, could you write a little one for Fi-ENFp? I'm very interested...

[Steve]

This is a nice description, Steve... If you get time, could you write a little one for Fi-ENFp? I'm very interested...

Thanks.

The way I described Te manifesting for the Ne ENFp would be the same way as Si manifests for the Fi ENFp. For you, and I (as a Ti ENTp), we like to explore the nuances of Si and have a engaged interest in dabbling within the experience of our environment. We like to talk about it, reflect upon it, and from my experience use Ne to aid in jumping around within different aspects of the Si experience. You filter it through a Fi lens, while I filter it through a Ti lens. So you'll be focusing on exploring the way the integrated experience of the environment illustrates the Fi you observe in it. Or you could think of it as taking a Fi telescope and gazing around the Si heavens.

[Wynch]

Right, in case anyone is wondering, I established without a question of doubt in my mind today that I was Ti. And from there, it seems only logical that I be ENTp. If anyone has something to say to the contrary, I now firmly believe I am ENTp once again and am prepared to argue the point.

That is all.

[Steve]

Right, in case anyone is wondering, I established without a question of doubt in my mind today that I was Ti. And from there, it seems only logical that I be ENTp. If anyone has something to say to the contrary, I now firmly believe I am ENTp once again and am prepared to argue the point.

That is all.

I agree, I can't get off of Ti when it comes down to it.