View Poll Results: Do Deltas value social expectations/norms more or less than the average person?

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Thread: Deltas and social expectations/norms

  1. #1
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    Default Deltas and social expectations/norms

    Deltas, how do you think your quadra view social expectations/norms in relation to the average person?
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    Probably about the same. It's hard to tell, because with myself there are many norms I really don't care about. However, that doesn't mean that some ways of behaving are extremely important to me.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    With Deltas I could see the rationals caring more than the irrationals.
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    I really don't care for social expectations, as long as they stay the hell away.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Deltas, how do you think your quadra view social expectations/norms in relation to the average person?
    I think in general they are a terrible thing to navigate by in terms of deciding who you are/should be, as well as regarding others. People who put a lot of stock in them make me nervous, since it seems to me like a shortcut to avoid any serious thought or reflection. I think a lot of great things are lost (maybe never found is a better way to put it) in this way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Deltas, how do you think your quadra view social expectations/norms in relation to the average person?

    I don't think we're particularly concerned with social expectations. I understand them and deal with them as they come up but they aren't important to me. My husband hates them and gets stubborn and cranky when some social expectation comes up. We have to go to a family member's wedding this coming weekend and he's been complaining non stop. Does he really have to dress nicely? Do we HAVE to buy a present? Why do people have to buy presents for weddings? How long do we have to stay there? It's going to be hot, isn't it? Didn't we just go to a wedding a few months ago?
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    I don't think the question is clear enough. What do you mean by 'social expectations'? If you define them as meaningless, socially derived rituals that impose limitations upon personal freedoms, then you get a very different answer than if you were to define them as robust social conventions that maintain social harmony and minimise interpersonal friction.

    I think some social expectations are necessary for social functioning and whether I value any given convention will depend on that convention and the circumstances of the case. I have no answer I can give a general case... but I think breaking social conventions to 'make a point' or to 'prove something' (and for no other ostensible purpose) is immature and pointless.
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    I voted, but I wanna say it. Less! Much less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I don't think we're particularly concerned with social expectations. I understand them and deal with them as they come up but they aren't important to me. My husband hates them and gets stubborn and cranky when some social expectation comes up. We have to go to a family member's wedding this coming weekend and he's been complaining non stop. Does he really have to dress nicely? Do we HAVE to buy a present? Why do people have to buy presents for weddings? How long do we have to stay there? It's going to be hot, isn't it? Didn't we just go to a wedding a few months ago?
    boy we sure can seem like 4 year olds sometimes, eh?
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    I'm pretty extreme about it because I despise social norms or standards of behavior especially because I had to deal with my mom trying to impose them on me. Basically it doesn't matter to me in the least; we'd be a better society without these things.

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    I don't mind social norms, but I do get annoyed at being obligated to do things. I had a buuunch of friends all get engaged, married and have babies withing a few months and I was annoyed because it all ended up being really expensive. Some were having extra events and pre-showers, etc. just to get more gifts it seemed like. I felt like, I'm not asking them to pay for my first date outfits, so why am I buy them pots and pans?

    I'd rather buy gifts for people because I want to, not because their invitation tells me which store to go to. I find gift registries to be kinda tacky as well.

    Of course, I would never let them know this. I really like buying stuff for close friends and family though, and occasions just give me an excuse to.

    I also dislike having to buy rounds of drinks. I'd prefer to buy my own drinks and have others buy their own. It ends up getting confusing trying to remember who bought what and some of my friends purposefully forget so they don't have to buy. Ick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I don't think we're particularly concerned with social expectations. I understand them and deal with them as they come up but they aren't important to me. My husband hates them and gets stubborn and cranky when some social expectation comes up. We have to go to a family member's wedding this coming weekend and he's been complaining non stop. Does he really have to dress nicely? Do we HAVE to buy a present? Why do people have to buy presents for weddings? How long do we have to stay there? It's going to be hot, isn't it? Didn't we just go to a wedding a few months ago?
    Yeah, social norms are complete bullshit. It's ridiculous how many barriers it put up between us as people. Not all norms are bad, however. Anyway, if youre happy, living life how you want to..then thats fine by me. Just dont take that as an excuse to run around like a douchebag.
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  13. #13
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    Social norms...

    I don't even always realize them. When I do notice them, I don't have any sense of deep rebellion and I'll usually follow along without too much complaint. Unless I have my own reasons for not following. Like, I'm tired and it takes too much effort. Or I think it's impractical. Or I don't like the people who are involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I don't think the question is clear enough. What do you mean by 'social expectations'? If you define them as meaningless, socially derived rituals that impose limitations upon personal freedoms, then you get a very different answer than if you were to define them as robust social conventions that maintain social harmony and minimise interpersonal friction.

    I think some social expectations are necessary for social functioning and whether I value any given convention will depend on that convention and the circumstances of the case. I have no answer I can give a general case... but I think breaking social conventions to 'make a point' or to 'prove something' (and for no other ostensible purpose) is immature and pointless.
    Yes, I agree with this. I look at social expectations on a case-by-case basis as opposed to over all. Some have good reasons behind them, others have lost their meaning, and others get in the way of practicality and progress; some I like and others I just don't really care for.
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    Default Social etiquette and Delta

    Is knowing what's socially appropriate type related? Would you do any of the following, or not think these things were a big deal? Do you knowingly ignore "the norms"? Or are you oblivious? Do you wish you knew what was appropriate? Or just don't care?

    Some examples:

    1. Talking loudly through a wedding (the ceremony in a church) -- not noticing that others are turning around and looking at you.

    2. Insulting something someone paid a lot of money for right in front of them (and all of their friends), because the product was inferior -- not realizing they're upset.

    3. Accepting more than one invite for events/dinners on the same night, even though that means canceling on at least one group of people. Not realizing people are upset when plans are broken.

    4. Leaving a party, and inviting a person of the opposite sex to join you for your anniversary dinner that night (with you and your sig other) -- because the person was hungry.

    5. Not realizing you are flirting with someone of the opposite sex in front of your sig other/or being unaware they are flirting with you.

    6. Needing to clear something up with someone, but not knowing how to say it tactfully without ruining the relationship.

    7. Canceling last minute because you'd rather watch TV, even if you're letting down friends who worked hard to get everyone together/make dinner, etc. Being surprised when they're upset about this.

    8. Interrupting someone to point out something unrelated to what they're talking about, that shows you haven't been paying attention at all. Example, "So then my boss yelled at me..." "Hey look at that shiny thing over there! Do you know how much that costs?"

    (As for me, I find it super easy to know what's appropriate. I know the expectations and if I don't follow them, it's on purpose and probably done in the least offensive way I can think of.)
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    I think most of that stuff pertains to ethicals, but general social norms are different for different quadras. Usually your opposite quadra is the one who thinks you're being "inappropriate" according to their norms, with weird clashes happening from time to time with the other two as well.
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    The only ones I could see myself doing would be 3 & 7...I only do it rarely, though and feel really bad when I do it but some things you just don't want to do.

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    I may be guilty of 2 from time to time, but other than that I'm pretty well aware of what's appropriate in the sense of personal interaction. I also tend to be fairly upset when other people are guilty of any of the above infractions, particularly 8.
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    8 has to be the worst, ever. That's one sure way to make me want to rip your head off.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    1. Talking loudly through a wedding (the ceremony in a church) -- not noticing that others are turning around and looking at you.

    2. Insulting something someone paid a lot of money for right in front of them (and all of their friends), because the product was inferior -- not realizing they're upset.

    3. Accepting more than one invite for events/dinners on the same night, even though that means canceling on at least one group of people. Not realizing people are upset when plans are broken.

    4. Leaving a party, and inviting a person of the opposite sex to join you for your anniversary dinner that night (with you and your sig other) -- because the person was hungry.

    5. Not realizing you are flirting with someone of the opposite sex in front of your sig other/or being unaware they are flirting with you.

    6. Needing to clear something up with someone, but not knowing how to say it tactfully without ruining the relationship.

    7. Canceling last minute because you'd rather watch TV, even if you're letting down friends who worked hard to get everyone together/make dinner, etc. Being surprised when they're upset about this.

    8. Interrupting someone to point out something unrelated to what they're talking about, that shows you haven't been paying attention at all. Example, "So then my boss yelled at me..." "Hey look at that shiny thing over there! Do you know how much that costs?"
    1: Of course I wouldn't.
    2: I might, though if they're a friend I'd be more careful about their feelings.
    3: No way. It's important to me that I stick to my schedule.
    4: Maybe invite them to sit across the room and pay for it, but not to eat together.
    5: Maybe...I don't know.
    6: Maybe; I'd write a note.
    7: No way. I'd hate it if someone did that to me, and dinner is better than TV.
    8: I've actually done this.

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    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
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    I don't do any of that, and by no means I am a saint. I think it's not so much a matter of applying norms, as it is understanding the reason behind those norms, and consequently, applying them naturally. (2) and (3) are things that I could never see myself doing... It just seems so rude and unthoughtful.

    I remember eating dinner with an LSE friend to a place I invited, and he was really criticizing the food, saying how he could eat much better for the same price somewhere else. At my birthday party he didn't drink beer because I had Budweiser, and he said that the stuff is hard to swallow (referring to taste). That kind of stuff really bothers me, being so picky and critical about food. So yeah, I wouldn't do that.

    (3) I'm guessing it might be an irrational type thing, because I've met a few delta irrationals who find that to be normal. I can't explain why I wouldn't do that, other than it seems weird to me. It's like, trying to eat your cake and have it in a way.

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    My comments in bold:
    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Is knowing what's socially appropriate type related? Would you do any of the following, or not think these things were a big deal? Do you knowingly ignore "the norms"? Or are you oblivious? Do you wish you knew what was appropriate? Or just don't care?

    Some examples:

    1. Talking loudly through a wedding (the ceremony in a church) -- not noticing that others are turning around and looking at you.
    This is a sign of someone really being into what they are talking about and not noticing what's going on around them.

    2. Insulting something someone paid a lot of money for right in front of them (and all of their friends), because the product was inferior -- not realizing they're upset.

    3. Accepting more than one invite for events/dinners on the same night, even though that means canceling on at least one group of people. Not realizing people are upset when plans are broken.
    Or just plain forgetting that previous plans were made, while still recognizing that people are upset when plans are broken.

    4. Leaving a party, and inviting a person of the opposite sex to join you for your anniversary dinner that night (with you and your sig other) -- because the person was hungry.
    Not anniversary, but yeah, I can see myself pay more attention to someone being hungry, inviting them along, then concerning myself about celebrating some momentous day. I'm not that great at remember/celebrating such things.

    5. Not realizing you are flirting with someone of the opposite sex in front of your sig other/or being unaware they are flirting with you.
    One of the benefits of now being 'older and heavier' is that I no longer have to worry about this anymore.

    6. Needing to clear something up with someone, but not knowing how to say it tactfully without ruining the relationship.
    Regularly dealing with this. Very few people like to be told that they are wrong or misperceived or misinterpreted something. This is where diplomatic skills can help out, though.

    7. Canceling last minute because you'd rather watch TV, even if you're letting down friends who worked hard to get everyone together/make dinner, etc. Being surprised when they're upset about this.
    I've learned to make these agreements tentative, and letting the other person know that my agreement is tentative. But certainly not surprised when they get upset about it.

    8. Interrupting someone to point out something unrelated to what they're talking about, that shows you haven't been paying attention at all. Example, "So then my boss yelled at me..." "Hey look at that shiny thing over there! Do you know how much that costs?"
    I'm always doing this, even when I'm paying attention. My mind is never focused on one thing at a time, and I've often got at least three things running through my head during a conversation as well as paying attention to the environment around me. I have, however, learned to say "Bird" before each comment like that, to let the person know that the following comment is unrelated to the conversation. Those who talk regularly with me have learned to expect and ignore these random comments from me.

    (As for me, I find it super easy to know what's appropriate. I know the expectations and if I don't follow them, it's on purpose and probably done in the least offensive way I can think of.)
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    8 has to be the worst, ever. That's one sure way to make me want to rip your head off.
    Then it's a good thing we don't IM/chat. I like my head!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post

    1. Talking loudly through a wedding (the ceremony in a church) -- not noticing that others are turning around and looking at you.
    Sometimes my tone may get loud but I try to correct myself immediately. This is usually because I am sometimes unaware of the volume of my voice.
    2. Insulting something someone paid a lot of money for right in front of them (and all of their friends), because the product was inferior -- not realizing they're upset.
    I am somewhat vocal about frivolous spending with my family (it is a family issue afterall). Others...no.

    3. Accepting more than one invite for events/dinners on the same night, even though that means canceling on at least one group of people. Not realizing people are upset when plans are broken.
    Not that I can recall. I'm usually the one planning anyway.

    4. Leaving a party, and inviting a person of the opposite sex to join you for your anniversary dinner that night (with you and your sig other) -- because the person was hungry.
    In most instances, no. But if the friend was in an extraordinarily desparate situation for some reason, maybe. I don't know.

    5. Not realizing you are flirting with someone of the opposite sex in front of your sig other/or being unaware they are flirting with you.
    I'd like to think not.

    6. Needing to clear something up with someone, but not knowing how to say it tactfully without ruining the relationship.
    I am very blunt and, fortunately, my friends actually appreciate that.

    7. Canceling last minute because you'd rather watch TV, even if you're letting down friends who worked hard to get everyone together/make dinner, etc. Being surprised when they're upset about this.
    I've been a victim of this and it really does bother me. I'm fairly certain I have not acted this way myself.

    8. Interrupting someone to point out something unrelated to what they're talking about, that shows you haven't been paying attention at all. Example, "So then my boss yelled at me..." "Hey look at that shiny thing over there! Do you know how much that costs?"
    Yes, I do this with certain people who I know don't mind this quirk. With others who are a bit more sensitive, I try to hold back. But I am listening regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Is knowing what's socially appropriate type related? Would you do any of the following, or not think these things were a big deal? Do you knowingly ignore "the norms"? Or are you oblivious? Do you wish you knew what was appropriate? Or just don't care?
    As for the question itself, there have been debates in the past regarding whether it's tied to Fi or Fe. Before it was heavily seen as Fe, now it's seen as Fi. And if you bring tact to the picture, and the whole idea of "knowing how to act acccording to your current circumstance" it becomes related to Se. I honestly think it is a fusion of the two ethical functions; and, if it's more of a reactionary situation, then Se comes into the picture.

    For the most part, I am fairly confident as to what the appropiate behaviour is but sometimes I oppose it for what I think is the right behaviour.
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    Is knowing what's socially appropriate type related? Would you do any of the following, or not think these things were a big deal? Do you knowingly ignore "the norms"? Or are you oblivious? Do you wish you knew what was appropriate? Or just don't care?

    Some examples:

    1. Talking loudly through a wedding (the ceremony in a church) -- not noticing that others are turning around and looking at you.
    Not very likely

    2. Insulting something someone paid a lot of money for right in front of them (and all of their friends), because the product was inferior -- not realizing they're upset.
    Not very likely either

    3. Accepting more than one invite for events/dinners on the same night, even though that means canceling on at least one group of people. Not realizing people are upset when plans are broken.
    I do that quite often, but my friends are similar to me and are not held by their promises as far as some night out is concerned. Not to mention they do that from time to time themselves or just take forever to decide. If I know it is important I won't make other plans and wont do any other promises.

    4. Leaving a party, and inviting a person of the opposite sex to join you for your anniversary dinner that night (with you and your sig other) -- because the person was hungry.
    WHAT? DD No. It's my anniversary dinner, GTFO.

    5. Not realizing you are flirting with someone of the opposite sex in front of your sig other/or being unaware they are flirting with you.
    Happens, ain't that something that happens to everyone though?

    6. Needing to clear something up with someone, but not knowing how to say it tactfully without ruining the relationship.
    Also happens to everyone? Anyway, usually I know how to say it, with some certain people its almost impossible though.

    7. Canceling last minute because you'd rather watch TV, even if you're letting down friends who worked hard to get everyone together/make dinner, etc. Being surprised when they're upset about this.
    In a hipothetical scenario this might be possible. However I am not the kind of person who would skip going out somewhere instead of watching TV. If I know it is important, I will deffo be there. If it is not, them I will most likely be there.

    8. Interrupting someone to point out something unrelated to what they're talking about, that shows you haven't been paying attention at all. Example, "So then my boss yelled at me..." "Hey look at that shiny thing over there! Do you know how much that costs?"
    Not usually, unless I have such intent. As in to interrupt an akward conversation or somesuch.

    (As for me, I find it super easy to know what's appropriate. I know the expectations and if I don't follow them, it's on purpose and probably done in the least offensive way I can think of.)
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