Beta types valuing social norms/expectations

[Joy]

Betas, how do you think your quadra view social expectations/norms in relation to the average person?

[Darkstar]

oh you made another one. lol

I don't understand what you mean by viewing social expectations/norms??

Not that I will vote because I don't see myself as a member of beta quadra

[Joy]

I think the poll question clarifies it a little? Basically I was wondering which quadra's members think their quadra tends to be likely to disregard (or go against social expectations/norms) and which (if any) think that people of their quadra tend to value social expectations and norms. See my posts in machintruc's recent topic in Gamma if you're interested in the origins of my curiosity.

[misutii]

This is an interesting question because I often think about what the social norms and expectations are and how they affect my behaviour. It's difficult for me to answer briefly though. I live in Canada and I've noticed that in metropolitan areas, where many different cultures are assembled to the degree that one culture's norms/expectations do not reign supreme in public, it's difficult for me to ascertain what is expected of me in different situations. For example, there is the Anglo cultural norms, which I suppose outside of the Toronto area (and of course outside of Quebec), rule, but being as that my parents and family all came here from continental Europe (Italy to be exact, but to be even more exact each side of the family is from the opposite end of that country and wouldn't even be speaking the same language Fruiliano vs. Calabrese or be considered the same race if that country's nationalism movement hadn't occurred and have their own cultural norms) I don't really associate myself with the Anglo norms. I'm noting this because I think family heritage does make a difference, especially in regards to one's view of family. It's through family that we're taught what is and what is not normal after all. On the same vein I remember visiting one of my friends once, whose family is of Chinese origin, and their family dynamics seemed more akin to mine than Anglo family dynamics (which I find are all about providing less support making their kids less dependent, more individualistic) often with year 18 set as the "cut-off" date.

I know I just had to go and complicate things.

[Ezra]

I honestly don't know about this. I feel like I care far less about social conventions than some people e.g. people in the OTC. If it makes sense to me, I will follow it through and say some Keirsey SJ thing like "rules are there because they work, and hence must be followed". If it doesn't make sense to me, I'll give a pissed off tyrade, and - because of it - probably end up less popular with the kind of people who say "it's tradition, isn't it!" when I ask why they do something ridiculous and/or pointless. These kinds of people piss me off.

[Satan]

It's been said to me that I'm SLE, so I must therefore be Beta.

I find that I have both an awareness of social norms, and a degree of compliance.

Although sometimes I actually struggle to say socially compliant.

People have told me that I at times, push boundarys, and limits. And that I push past what is acceptable. And that sometimes I'm more than slightly far out -

Generally, I try to hold myself in check. Like I'll do things like not swear at a bank. And I'll try and not act "crazy" in "formal" establishments.

When I'm doing this I get kind of more still, and quieter. But sometimes it's like I need to let go - I need to release, and it's like I find it hard to constrain my behaviour.

I've found that in some situations, it's like people want to block me for a short while so that I don't just storm into an area. Or that I'll kind of seem to be operating at a different tempo from other people around me.

Like other people won't be moving much, and I'll move a lot. Or other people are all moving, and I'm still. And it's like I'm not "aligning" very well.

That said at times, I like people to be "well behaved" and to use "manners". I find that I really do prefer if people greet me when they see me. And sometimes it really bugs me if people pretend I don't exist. Like I want to nearly go and start a physical fight, due to me perceiving someone not "paying attention" to me.

I used to find problems with people who would kind of try and "break" order. Or inconvenience me in some way or other. And it significantly pissed me off, if people got in the way of my "order".

Sometimes people would try and act oblivious. Like they didn't know what they were doing, or the ramifications of such though.

It's like if you want to go through a doorway, and someone is in the way. Then should you push them out of the way, or should you ask nicely if they'd PLEASE GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.

And then if someone's like, "What are you going to do about it?" It's like you have to take things to the physical level, otherwise they might try and pull the same shit again.

I suppose most of the time I'm quite moderate in my behaviour though. I like people to understand what rules are important, and what rules are bendable. And I like to inform people in advance, before they break rules.

Also I used to have double rules for girls and guys. It's like for guys I wanted them to be forceful. And girls I wanted them to be pleasant. I didn't like it when girls were forceful, or guys were pleasant.

It's like if a girl asks for something, they should say it in a nice way. They can't be demanding, or pushy, or threaten or anything.

Whereas guys, I want them to be forward, direct. In your face. And immediate.

Anyway, I suppose it's weird what people find important, and what they don't. Like I think it's important to hold doors open for people. I think it's important to be honest. I think it's important to be direct. But I don't like it when people are like "I might have a problem" or "I don't know if what you're doing is the right way to go". TO ME, it's like that kind of doubt, or ambiguity. It can drive me crazy.

And sometimes it's like I can ignore people if they seem too ambigious, like they don't matter, because if they're going to act like they don't matter, then surely they don't matter, and they have to learn to say things like they matter. And so that they matter. And then I don't have to ignore them. So it's like I feel like in a way i have to teach people the right way to behave. And so it's okay if someone starts off on the wrong foot, as long as they can move to the right foot.

Like I used to have this problem with girls quite often, where it's like when they wanted to get my attention they wouldn't be pushy enough. I'd say things like - if you want my attention *STARE* at my eyes. Don't just look at my eyes. If it's important, you need to raise the intensity in your eyes.

The thing is, I found that some people seem to have no idea how to have more "intense" eyes. And so they'll want to practice, and it's like you have to kind of "teach" them to keep raising the intensity. And that it's okay, and nothing bad will happen.

It's like some people would seem to have this strange idea, that from a long distance away you should be able to look at someone and they'd pick up on it. And know that you want attention. And enough attention, to go all the way over to them, far away, and pay them attention. Without putting nearly enough energy into it.

The thing is, in my crazy deranged manic mind. It doesn't actually require that much energy, to cross long distances, for some minor thing, if someone's important to me, and doesn't abuse it.

I suppose there's just something about me, that makes it harder for me to pick up glances or gazes. But like, I know it works so in a way, when someone says that they tried to get my attention, and they were looking at me, and I didn't respond, saying that they need to be more intense, and then getting them to practice intensifying their gaze seems to mean that I don't have to worry about them, and I can stay focused on what I'm doing - knowing that they won't feel so uncomfortable about not being able to get my attention.

[redbaron]

I agree with Misutii that this can differ given one's nationality and upbringing but yeah I do tend to conform unless it doesn't make sense. sometimes it's just with little stuff like making a U-turn if there's no one around anyway and I really need to do it. I definitely have a streak of rebelliousness or, shall we say, rule-bending that isn't readily apparent. I was raised in a very conservative environment. But I agree with Ezra here in that I really hate it when people say things "it's tradition" or "because it's the rule" if it doesn't make sense anymore. It depends on the situation though. I think betas are probably more likely than the average person to go with their own inner convictions rather than some written external law? not sure.

[redbaron]

Generally, I try to hold myself in check. Like I'll do things like not swear at a bank. And I'll try and not act "crazy" in "formal" establishments.

for some reason, this totally cracked me up.

[lefty]

i believe in being very permissive privately. I believe in altered consciousness, exploration, curiosity, the seedy side of life...although...i dont think people should try to harm one another because thats a violation of their personal liberty.

i like tattoos and alternative dress and also find some very clean cut dominant male types very hot. I'm kind of on the edge of polyamorous and i consider myself somewhat bisexual.

i believe in recycling, environmentalism, abortion rights, preventing genocide, ethical business practices i.e. fair trade and labor rights, global consciousness. i like hindus and tibetans and have a lot of hope for africa.

I believe in a secular society insofar as we're free to believe. I like poets and think their statements kind of mark their times. i believe in rebellion and civil disobediance. I think the human race could make it off this planet someday and that if we need to do that to survive we should try.

I dont believe in dogma, I don't believe in murder, I dont believe suffering is legitimate or should be unattended to. I'm basically a socialist and a humanist. and i love living things.

[strrrng]

I don't particularly care about social norms, and I do think betas are more likely than the average person to not abide by them. This could be a manifestation of internal Ti principles based off of personal Ni insights, not sure.

t's been said to me that I'm SLE, so I must therefore be Beta.

I find that I have both an awareness of social norms, and a degree of compliance.

Although sometimes I actually struggle to say socially compliant.

People have told me that I at times, push boundarys, and limits. And that I push past what is acceptable. And that sometimes I'm more than slightly far out -

Generally, I try to hold myself in check. Like I'll do things like not swear at a bank. And I'll try and not act "crazy" in "formal" establishments.

When I'm doing this I get kind of more still, and quieter. But sometimes it's like I need to let go - I need to release, and it's like I find it hard to constrain my behaviour.

I've found that in some situations, it's like people want to block me for a short while so that I don't just storm into an area. Or that I'll kind of seem to be operating at a different tempo from other people around me.

Like other people won't be moving much, and I'll move a lot. Or other people are all moving, and I'm still. And it's like I'm not "aligning" very well.

That said at times, I like people to be "well behaved" and to use "manners". I find that I really do prefer if people greet me when they see me. And sometimes it really bugs me if people pretend I don't exist. Like I want to nearly go and start a physical fight, due to me perceiving someone not "paying attention" to me.

I used to find problems with people who would kind of try and "break" order. Or inconvenience me in some way or other. And it significantly pissed me off, if people got in the way of my "order".

Sometimes people would try and act oblivious. Like they didn't know what they were doing, or the ramifications of such though.

It's like if you want to go through a doorway, and someone is in the way. Then should you push them out of the way, or should you ask nicely if they'd PLEASE GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.

And then if someone's like, "What are you going to do about it?" It's like you have to take things to the physical level, otherwise they might try and pull the same shit again.

I suppose most of the time I'm quite moderate in my behaviour though. I like people to understand what rules are important, and what rules are bendable. And I like to inform people in advance, before they break rules.

Also I used to have double rules for girls and guys. It's like for guys I wanted them to be forceful. And girls I wanted them to be pleasant. I didn't like it when girls were forceful, or guys were pleasant.

It's like if a girl asks for something, they should say it in a nice way. They can't be demanding, or pushy, or threaten or anything.

Whereas guys, I want them to be forward, direct. In your face. And immediate.

Anyway, I suppose it's weird what people find important, and what they don't. Like I think it's important to hold doors open for people. I think it's important to be honest. I think it's important to be direct. But I don't like it when people are like "I might have a problem" or "I don't know if what you're doing is the right way to go". TO ME, it's like that kind of doubt, or ambiguity. It can drive me crazy.

And sometimes it's like I can ignore people if they seem too ambigious, like they don't matter, because if they're going to act like they don't matter, then surely they don't matter, and they have to learn to say things like they matter. And so that they matter. And then I don't have to ignore them. So it's like I feel like in a way i have to teach people the right way to behave. And so it's okay if someone starts off on the wrong foot, as long as they can move to the right foot.

Like I used to have this problem with girls quite often, where it's like when they wanted to get my attention they wouldn't be pushy enough. I'd say things like - if you want my attention *STARE* at my eyes. Don't just look at my eyes. If it's important, you need to raise the intensity in your eyes.

The thing is, I found that some people seem to have no idea how to have more "intense" eyes. And so they'll want to practice, and it's like you have to kind of "teach" them to keep raising the intensity. And that it's okay, and nothing bad will happen.

It's like some people would seem to have this strange idea, that from a long distance away you should be able to look at someone and they'd pick up on it. And know that you want attention. And enough attention, to go all the way over to them, far away, and pay them attention. Without putting nearly enough energy into it.

The thing is, in my crazy deranged manic mind. It doesn't actually require that much energy, to cross long distances, for some minor thing, if someone's important to me, and doesn't abuse it.

I suppose there's just something about me, that makes it harder for me to pick up glances or gazes. But like, I know it works so in a way, when someone says that they tried to get my attention, and they were looking at me, and I didn't respond, saying that they need to be more intense, and then getting them to practice intensifying their gaze seems to mean that I don't have to worry about them, and I can stay focused on what I'm doing - knowing that they won't feel so uncomfortable about not being able to get my attention.

+10