Who's your enneagram dual?

[Volcana]

What's vutology? Some new theory on visual identification?

Beta NF vs Beta ST are worlds apart - the former deals with information that's very implicit, feelings, relationships, intuitive perceptions of events, everything subjective, the latter deals with very explicit information about the directly tangible things of the world.

I think it's obvious that your focus is on the former.




Yes, this is a good example, I think.

Hm, I'm not so convinced that NTs or STs can't take pleasure in analyzing humans. My father, for instance, is a very clear, classic ILE-Ti, and he is a psychiatrist. He loves to dissect people from the exact kind of angle I did in my post above.

I am not arguing for my type: on principle, unless it's a typing thread and I'm ready to go into the nitty gritty, I don't see the point in "defending my self-typing" or pushing a typing; I'm more interested to hear other people's take on my type, and how I come off. We are all blind to ourselves.

But, when I see possible misconceptions about theory, I do want to address them just so we can be clear that we're talking about the same thing.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson, for instance, is widely typed at EIE, and he talks about science. Why couldn't a thinker, then, take interest in psychology as a passion? Most people type Trent Reznor as a thinker, even if they disagree on the quadra - and his lyrics reveal a lot about his extreme, excessive feelings and his thoughts on human nature.

[Aylen]

@Volcano I had an older ILE therapist, once, which I wrote about on the forum before. That was a real head trip. I ended up firing him even though I liked him as a human being. I was starting to look at him as a father figure which I knew was not a good sign.

[Volcana]

@Volcano I had an older ILE therapist, once, which I wrote about on the forum before. That was a real head trip. I ended up firing him even though I liked him as a human being. I was starting to look at him as a father figure which I knew was not a good sign.

Haha. Yeah, finding the right mix with a therapist is key. It all depends on the dynamic between you and them. Some therapists are better for some people, others for other people.

My parents work together in a private business, and both are psychiatrists. My mother is ESTJ and my father is ENTP.

(Side note: For those of you who think I'm considering LSI because my husband is EIE, please see my previous posts in this thread, and also note that my parents have been married for 36 years, and Socionics would claim that's a bad idea!! I am not typing on that basis, it's just interesting.)

Anyhow.. different patients do well with each of them. It's pretty much a guarantee that a patient who thrives with either one of them would not thrive with the other.

As for their practice: my father has won awards as the best psychiatrist in the county. He is highly analytical and one of his greatest interests in life, if not his number one, is human nature. He tested as 163 IQ, and was accepted into a highschool for very brilliant kids, and he was bored to death by his over-technical over-intellectual detached classes, and preferred playing guitar on the lawn, giving teachers the finger and teaching guitar for a living. He had major success in the music business, then turned around to do psych in his 20s. Being a thinker does not equal being dry, nor does it dictate someone's specific set of interests.

[squark]

@Daddy Lessons
My type aside, there is no problem with mixing Ti dominance with type 4 in enneagram.

I wrote several posts about this on another forum - and I will repost them here:

I just wanted to thank you for your post. I had never considered 4 with Ti ego before, assuming they couldn't go together, so I really appreciate your perspective here. Gives much food for thought whether or not I end up agreeing in the end. Thanks.

[Hermit Soul]

I find myself attracted to enneagram 5s, I seemed to click quite well with this enneagram type, and socionics wise they tend to be logicians, lol.

My ideal partner is definitely an enneagram 5, I'm drawn to people who are knowledgeable, curious, intelligent, and insightful. I enjoy being around them and hear them talk about their intellectual interests or their latest projects/research. They are just so interesting to me.

[Volcana]

I just wanted to thank you for your post. I had never considered 4 with Ti ego before, assuming they couldn't go together, so I really appreciate your perspective here. Gives much food for thought whether or not I end up agreeing in the end. Thanks.

Awesome! Thanks for the thanks!
It took me some time to reconcile, but not only does it make perfect sense.... I have also known high-Ti 4s.
Fiona Apple is a good example. People type her all over the place. But if you look at how she moves, she clearly makes Ji - specifically Ti - hand gestures and her smile is the inferior Fe placid smile. Also follow what she's saying and it shows. She is LSI, 469 Sx/So.

[Myst]

Hm, I'm not so convinced that NTs or STs can't take pleasure in analyzing humans. My father, for instance, is a very clear, classic ILE-Ti, and he is a psychiatrist. He loves to dissect people from the exact kind of angle I did in my post above.

I am not arguing for my type: on principle, unless it's a typing thread and I'm ready to go into the nitty gritty, I don't see the point in "defending my self-typing" or pushing a typing; I'm more interested to hear other people's take on my type, and how I come off. We are all blind to ourselves.

But, when I see possible misconceptions about theory, I do want to address them just so we can be clear that we're talking about the same thing.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson, for instance, is widely typed at EIE, and he talks about science. Why couldn't a thinker, then, take interest in psychology as a passion? Most people type Trent Reznor as a thinker, even if they disagree on the quadra - and his lyrics reveal a lot about his extreme, excessive feelings and his thoughts on human nature.

I was talking about information processing, not about taking pleasure or not taking pleasure in analyzing humans etc. I didn't intend to use stereotypes about interest areas at all. I might not have been unambiguous enough about that tho'.

So the point was, the way of analyzing people will be very different for NF vs for ST because of different information processing.

As an example, I'm very interested in some psychology topics and I'm not NF. My approach to psychology is also hardly NF. My approach is targeted at analyzing distinct explicit things as much as possible. The very implicit feely things I can't do much with directly most of the time, I'll happily dissect any distinctly definable parts of emotional topics though.

Your father either probably wasn't doing the dissecting the same way as an NF would, not the same information types are being processed by his Ego functions.

Does this clarification help?


All in all, I think it's much more likely that your partner is the LSI and you are the EIE. To be serious though, I see your partner (@Samson yeah?) as a Beta introvert (either of the two, haven't seen much of his posts yet), and you as a Beta NF (either of the two). So it could be any one of the four intraquadra relations for you two. They are all supposed to be favourable ITRs.


Something else - I found your post on Ti + 4 interesting.

I agree with quite some of the ideas in it and really liked those but I can't agree with the final conclusion, or at least not without serious reservations, I'll try to explain what I mean by that.

Where you talk of "A Ti dominant 4 is much more likely to get personal and talk about himself as though his very self is the result of the complex world of meanings that he has attributed to his feelings, ideas, experiences and relationships. And those things define him and constitute his identity". I'm not sure I'm ok with the word usage "personal". My relationship with that word is idiosyncratic for sure. I've actually got some experience in considering these things myself, but my way of doing the "attribute meaning to things - their impressions, feelings, thoughts, ideas, structures, inner worlds, experiences" is probably really really foreign to a NF 4 It's still very analytical and impersonal despite it being about "personal" information. And, as for myself, I can hardly say that I can see this as my default way of being, it's something I just temporarily engage in, even if a lot, but my natural default functioning needs more than this identify focus or focus on inferior Fe or whatever.

Overall, now in general going by the Socionics theory's claims, Ti with Se can be interested in some 4 themes of course but will still have to approach the bulk of it with that impersonally analytical method unless directly trying to engage in Superid Ni+Fe, which won't work for long. It can be a substantial interest periodically but that's not the same as the pervasive lifelong pattern of the Ego TiSe's functioning. (I don't mean enneagram ego, I mean Ego as in Socionics). So yes I do find it unlikely that Ti base especially with low Intuition can be a core 4. To me it just doesn't seem entirely "normal" psychologically if Ti base is focused on this all the time. Sorry, hard to find the right wording for this, I'm not trying to say 4 is bad or anything. Just that for 4, they have a personal world and Logic is an impersonal world and one of these worlds has to take priority here for the Ego, where for Ti base the natural priority will be the impersonal world. Let me know if this made sense to you.

And, afaik, Fiona Apple is typed as IEI usually. IEI can have high-ish Ti with their Ti HA, supposedly.

[Olimpia]

The only way a Ti-heavy person would have 4 as their main type is as a wing – 5w4. And a 4 fix might be possible. There are some ILIs who are 5w4 with an additional 4 fix, which can make them appear quite similarly to a 4 core person, especially if they are Ni subtype with boosted Fi.

Type 4 is inherently an Ethical type. Read any description written by an Enneagram practitioner or similar. Nowhere will you come across pronounced Logic in any of the descriptions. In the same manner, that applies to 5s; all the 5 descriptions clearly point at that person being an IxTx type. I'd go so far as to say, the descriptions give me a strong impression of INTx, but I understand if people think any Logical type could be Type 5 for that matter.

Type 5 is inherently a Logical type, just like 4 and 2 are inherently Ethical types. And that is just me, but I'd also go so far as to suggest that Type 8 is also characterized by being Logical. So basically, to me the default Ethical types are 2 and 4, whereas the default Logical types are 5 and 8. I've discovered that both by reading the descriptions and typing tons of people. Of course you can disagree with that. But to me, suggesting that a Logical type could be 4 (core) is like suggesting a Logical type could be 2 (core).

[Olimpia]

Based on my idea of "Enneagram Duality", mine would be:

Core: 7 > 8 > 3
Stacking: Sx/So
Tritype: 749, 748 > 853, 852 > 379, 369
(I'd also be the Dual for these tritypes: 125, 135, 147)

[Myst]

The only way a Ti-heavy person would have 4 as their main type is as a wing – 5w4. And a 4 fix might be possible. There are some ILIs who are 5w4 with an additional 4 fix, which can make them appear quite similarly to a 4 core person, especially if they are Ni subtype with boosted Fi.

Type 4 is inherently an Ethical type. Read any description written by an Enneagram practitioner or similar. Nowhere will you come across pronounced Logic in any of the descriptions. In the same manner, that applies to 5s; all the 5 descriptions clearly point at that person being an IxTx type. I'd go so far as to say, the descriptions give me a strong impression of INTx, but I understand if people think any Logical type could be Type 5 for that matter.

Type 5 is inherently a Logical type, just like 4 and 2 are inherently Ethical types. And that is just me, but I'd also go so far as to suggest that Type 8 is also characterized by being Logical. So basically, to me the default Ethical types are 2 and 4, whereas the default Logical types are 5 and 8. I've discovered that both by reading the descriptions and typing tons of people. Of course you can disagree with that. But to me, suggesting that a Logical type could be 4 (core) is like suggesting a Logical type could be 2 (core).

Agreed on how 4 is quite F, IxFx and/or NF, so especially INFx is a good fit though ENFx isn't out of the question and ESI-Fi is quite possible too (I had an ex bf who was ESI-Fi 4). To me 5 seems INxx and/or IxTx, depending on what parts of the 5 descriptions we are focusing on. So yes INTx will be the best match for it. I've seen possible IEI-Ni identify with it, too. Yeah 8 seems like best match for it is 1D Fi.

[Myst]

Based on my idea of "Enneagram Duality"

Hmm, in my case, with double competency/balanced hornevian (my tritype being 815, fuck standard tritype), this would mean any Emotionally Reactive type for me? "Competent with Emotionally Reactive" does sound good to me in some way. If I go and look closer, I find both combinations Assertive with Compliant and Compliant with Withdrawn are describing good advice (this closely lines up with my "tritype"). So that means 4 and 6 are good types for me? I've regularly been attracted to 4s for sure and I think 6s are cool too. I do also find 2 good in theory at least, in practice it's been much more 4s and 6s than 2s that I ended up with...

PS. I agree about similarity being important on some level. Idk if this is tritype related, though, really.

[Jerdle]

Based on my idea of "Enneagram Duality", mine would be:

Core: 7 > 8 > 3
Stacking: Sx/So
Tritype: 749, 748 > 853, 852 > 379, 369
(I'd also be the Dual for these tritypes: 125, 135, 147)

But seriously. I think Enneagram 4 or 9, 479 tritype. sx/sp stacking.