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Thread: ENFps feeling paranoid, fear of deception and evil schemes

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    Default ENFps feeling paranoid, fear of deception and evil schemes

    Why are ENFPs paranoid?

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    if they are in fact paranoid, the socionics explanation is that with leading Ne, they can see many negative possibilities as well as positive possibilities. this could drive some paranoia.

    but i don't see them as paranoid, generally.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I'm liking all the ENFp threads up lately. It's helped me better relate to other ENFps here.

    Mimosa, I can relate SO MUCH with what you've said...from my interactions with my mother (who is probably also ESE) to my need for freedom and independence, to people taking advantage of me at times. I think I'm more than likely also E9, so this could have something to do with that.

    My need for independence and freedom has always been there, from a very early age. My mom and I were actually talking about it the other day. She was "comparing" me to my half sister (on my dad's side, who is now 13) and saying how kind hearted and sweet she is. She said that although I was also this way, I always had a rebellious streak in me. My sister is probably ISFp (not sure how this relates). That's another thing I've always hated, being compared to others. It's been a sore spot in my relationship with my mom and most of my family my whole life. It's always been "why can't you be more like your cousin or whoever."

    I've always found it extremely irritating to be forced to fit in. I've always wanted to do my own thing. My independence manifested itself in going against established rules that I thought were useless. I found that other children would often readily just do as they were told "just because" without needing to understand "why" this action made sense. I could never just accept that. Rules for the sake of rules was just not a good enough reason. When told I wasn't allowed to do something in particular, I needed to know why this was the option that made the most sense. I guess I could see all the possibilities in my head and had a hard time accepting that this "one" was the answer. I realize that this could all be typical teenage stuff, but I do believe that it is more a part of my personality than for most people I know.

    I feel like I am a walking contradiction sometimes because of the combination of independence, while at the same time being "too nice" and not standing up for myself. This probably doesn't make sense to a lot of people reading this and I will try to think of a better way to explain it.

    Oh yeah, not sure how this all relates to being paranoid, per se, although I can see how I can become defensive and tense as soon as I feel limited in any way, which could appear "paranoid" to some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by betterthandead View Post
    Why are ENFPs paranoid?
    says the guy who edited his posting history.

    bahaha.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by betterthandead View Post
    Why are ENFPs paranoid?
    Well, it could be because:

    1. When I was a baby, my father spanked me for crying and not being silent. But even at age 42, I feel my father needs me for consolation, which I am not willing to give him since I was 23.
    2. My mother, who was and is an extreme ESI, didn't understand me, but used me in a way that basically meant I was her parent, instead of she being mine.
    3. My stepfather, who is LSI, did not pass on any opportunity to let me know I was lazy, an asshole, a know-it-all windbag and a faggot as well, despite him asking me for my help when he needed it (and not telling me what he wanted from me, but still criticizing me harshly for not understanding what it was that was expected of me).

    I can go on for a while, but the essence is that IEE's have a lot to offer to the world (or at least they feel so), but often don't get anything in return, i.e. don't ask or insist that they are given anything in return (weak Se). This gives them the impression (which manifests as a cognitive schema) that other people are abusive and that you need to be on your guard (creative Fi).

    The same phenomenon exists, I think, in all Irrationals, especially EPs, it's the manifestation that differs. E.g. SLE's that have had similar childhood experiences like I did, might take the more confrontational approach, which makes other people feel like they must walk on eggshells when dealing with SLE's ('other people might strike, so I must deal a preemptive first blow'). It's all about establishing boundaries in a maladaptive way.

    All of this, of course, only applies to extreme variants of types. I put it down in extremes, hoping the reader can reason back to smaller, more normal proportions.

    I also think that people who grew up in more nurturing circumstances, whatever their type, are less inclined to paranoid thinking and behavior.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-03-2008 at 12:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post

    I can go on for a while, but the essence is that IEE's have a lot to offer to the world (or at least they feel so), but often don't get anything in return, i.e. don't ask or insist that they are given anything in return (weak Se). This gives them the impression (which manifests as a cognitive schema) that other people are abusive and that you need to be on your guard (creative Fi).

    The same phenomenon exists, I think, in all Irrationals, especially EPs, it's the manifestation that differs. E.g. SLE's that have had similar childhood experiences like I did, might take the more confrontational approach, which makes other people feel like they must walk on eggshells when dealing with SLE's ('other people might strike, so I must deal a preemptive first blow'). It's all about establishing boundaries in a maladaptive way.

    All of this, of course, only applies to extreme variants of types. I put it down in extremes, hoping the reader can reason back to smaller, more normal proportions.

    I also think that people who grew up in more nurturing circumstances, whatever their type, are less inclined to paranoid thinking and behavior.
    !!!!! I think you got it here.

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    [quote]
    can go on for a while, but the essence is that IEE's have a lot to offer to the world (or at least they feel so), but often don't get anything in return, i.e. don't ask or insist that they are given anything in return (weak Se). This gives them the impression (which manifests as a cognitive schema) that other people are abusive and that you need to be on your guard (creative Fi).
    yes i could see this for IEE. and also a main difference between IEE and ILE. ILE really doesn't care about getting anything in return.

    The same phenomenon exists, I think, in all Irrationals, especially EPs, it's the manifestation that differs. E.g. SLE's that have had similar childhood experiences like I did, might take the more confrontational approach, which makes other people feel like they must walk on eggshells when dealing with SLE's ('other people might strike, so I must deal a preemptive first blow'). It's all about establishing boundaries in a maladaptive way.
    yeah SLE gets you before you get them or something like that?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    yeah SLE gets you before you get them or something like that?
    That's right. It's sort of an anti-social tendency. But once again I must add: extreme types. So SLE's, don't get worked up over this
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    if they are in fact paranoid, the socionics explanation is that with leading Ne, they can see many negative possibilities as well as positive possibilities. this could drive some paranoia.

    but i don't see them as paranoid, generally.
    I always feel paranoia is more commonly a negative byproduct of overactive .

    I'm always worrying about negative potentiality by connecting disparate bits of information. It usually doesn't occur to me that positive potentialities may be equally possible. My attention is naturally drawn to mitigation and being prepared for consequences. I feel stressed if I can't anticipate.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    I do tend to be a bit paranoid about the potential of something bad happening. I'll worry about one thing, and another, and another. I have no idea what could happen but there are a lot of bad things among future possibilities.

    I'm not unbalanced about it or anything. But it is part of who I am.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I do tend to be a bit paranoid about the potential of something bad happening. I'll worry about one thing, and another, and another. I have no idea what could happen but there are a lot of bad things among future possibilities.

    I'm not unbalanced about it or anything. But it is part of who I am.
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I do tend to be a bit paranoid about the potential of something bad happening. I'll worry about one thing, and another, and another. I have no idea what could happen but there are a lot of bad things among future possibilities.

    I'm not unbalanced about it or anything. But it is part of who I am.
    I agree that what you are describing can be part of the IEE makeup, but it is not about being paranoid. Being paranoid is about being afraid of being harmed by other people. Correct me if I wrong, but what you are describing is more about fear that worse things will happen, not necessarily related to the ations of other people. In extreme, pathological terms the difference is:

    MISTRUST / ABUSE (MA)

    The expectation that others will hurt, abuse, humiliate, cheat, lie, manipulate, or take advantage. Usually involves the perception that the harm is intentional or the result of unjustified and extreme negligence. May include the sense that one always ends up being cheated relative to others or "getting the short end of the stick."

    VULNERABILITY TO HARM OR ILLNESS (VH)

    Exaggerated fear that imminent catastrophe will strike at any time and that one will be unable to prevent it. Fears focus on one or more of the following: (A) Medical Catastrophes: e.g., heart attacks, AIDS; (B) Emotional Catastrophes: e.g., going crazy; (C): External Catastrophes: e.g., elevators collapsing, victimized by criminals, airplane crashes, earthquakes.

    (source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

    Now that you have mentioned it, I wonder what BetterThanDead meant by the word 'paranoid'. Perhaps he meant it in the sense mentioned by you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I agree that what you are describing can be part of the IEE makeup, but it is not about being paranoid. Being paranoid is about being afraid of being harmed by other people. Correct me if I wrong, but what you are describing is more about fear that worse things will happen, not necessarily related to the ations of other people. In extreme, pathological terms the difference is:
    MISTRUST / ABUSE (MA)

    The expectation that others will hurt, abuse, humiliate, cheat, lie, manipulate, or take advantage. Usually involves the perception that the harm is intentional or the result of unjustified and extreme negligence. May include the sense that one always ends up being cheated relative to others or "getting the short end of the stick."
    VULNERABILITY TO HARM OR ILLNESS (VH)

    Exaggerated fear that imminent catastrophe will strike at any time and that one will be unable to prevent it. Fears focus on one or more of the following: (A) Medical Catastrophes: e.g., heart attacks, AIDS; (B) Emotional Catastrophes: e.g., going crazy; (C): External Catastrophes: e.g., elevators collapsing, victimized by criminals, airplane crashes, earthquakes.
    (source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

    Now that you have mentioned it, I wonder what BetterThanDead meant by the word 'paranoid'. Perhaps he meant it in the sense mentioned by you.
    I wasn't sure how to answer this at first because I've known people who suffer from paranoid delusions (thinking people are trying to poison her, etc.) and I don't have any problems like that.

    So yes, you're right with what I meant by "paranoid".
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    I can be kinda paranoid, I admit. Usually I wonder about other people's motives and if I get a bad vibe, I often can't tell what the person is up to, but know it's something.

    An ENTp used to call me paranoid sometimes. However, other ENFps or ESFps, etc, will more often help me figure out where those bad vibes came from -- ESFps are particularly good at figuring out other people's motivations.

    I guess it's more that the Ne can rush forward to potential things happening, bad or good things. And that makes you look either really excited about the future, or suspicious of potential happenings.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Default Stressed out IEEs-ENFps: deception and fear of malevolent schemes

    During times of stress, ENFPs feel alienated. They then engage in deceptions that serve to obscure what is occurring within themselves.

    The ENFP finds symbolic meanings behind the immediate circumstances. These meanings are construed as foreboding problems when ENFPs are under stress. Having a pervasive feeling of losing control over their own independent identities, ENFPs will feel virtually split apart by intruding circumstances. They will be "besides themselves" and "just not all there" - as if something, or someone, has taken away the essence of who they are. Not feeling like themselves, the ENFP will become subject to their own feelings of shame for being a phony, a fake or an impostor. If stress continues to grow, they may attribute malevolent schemes to others in order to explain away their fears.
    how many enfp's relate to that ? If so, how do the bolded parts manifest - examples? how would the enfp like to be treated under stress. I can't imagine being overly sympathetic with Ni, I think that might feel claustrophobic to them. how do you sympathize with an enfp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    how many enfp's relate to that ? If so, how do the bolded parts manifest - examples? how would the enfp like to be treated under stress. I can't imagine being overly sympathetic with Ni, I think that might feel claustrophobic to them. how do you sympathize with an enfp?
    the processes described here sound like 'dissociation' and 'mistrust' (as in 'paranoid'). I think this description describes pathology, not normal personality or personality under stress. It should not be projected on all IEEs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    how many enfp's relate to that ? If so, how do the bolded parts manifest - examples? how would the enfp like to be treated under stress. I can't imagine being overly sympathetic with Ni, I think that might feel claustrophobic to them. how do you sympathize with an enfp?
    Personally, I identify with what you quoted about 80&#37; (or so, haha... Approx 82.4%) E.g. under stress, I do ascribe symbolic meanings to events; however, I wouldn't say that I 'engage in deception' (self-deception?)

    The non-bolded parts ring more true.

    Where did you find that? I'd like to read the whole she-bang

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    I don't relate to that at all.

    They will be "besides themselves" and "just not all there" - as if something, or someone, has taken away the essence of who they are.
    Maybe this part...? If I am depressed, I feel hemmed in by my daily routines and everything just looks colorless and BLAH. Like I have no options to change it or spice things up.

    And honestly, I have no idea what would make me feel better. Maybe hanging out with friends a bit, but doing something more low-key... Just being around people can help me regulate my mood so I don't get sucked into my head and forget that reality isn't that bad.

    As for engaging in deceptions and attributing schemes to others... yeah, that does sound pathological.
    IEE

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    I do relate.

    The deceptions can be as simple as telling people "I'm all right." But the distinguishing factor isn't so much the act of telling people "I'm all right" when I'm really not (since anyone can do that), but rather a level of conscious awareness within myself that I'm really not ok/things don't seem or feel right and forcefully putting on a façade on my "public" face to not draw unwanted questioning of why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling.

    I'm also aware if I'm not going to be able to mask it, as in, trying to mask it but truthfully knowing that I've already let the cat out of the bag and people know that I'm not doing all right. Working through these situations is sort of like weaving my way through a gauntlet until I either feel comfortable addressing it or retreating to some safe haven.

    Symbolic meanings. Yeah this is simply because I read too deeply into things. But it can also be instances where some deviation from a known safe pattern will cause me to think that the results will be devastating.

    I can remember instances earlier in my life where I'd be superstitious about things like the order in which I put on my clothes in the morning. Like if I deviated from a particular order (even if I "started over" that wouldn't work because I already messed it up) that would indicate a bad omen that something bad was probably going to happen.

    This can also be in more general terms when an event (small or large) happens and I immediately read into what the event implies. Like if someone responds to me in some way that causes me to question/doubt myself or worries me about the implications of what I just said, etc etc.

    They will be "besides themselves" and "just not all there" - as if something, or someone, has taken away the essence of who they are.
    My goodness, I can't tell you how much I feel like that. It's extremely frustrating, and it feels like I'm captured in some sort of suspended state that I try to find the right solution for but can't.

    As far as the attribution of malevolent schemes to others, this almost sounds like using some sort of excuse that other people are causing this, therefore my fears/acting fake are justified. Which, I have to be honest, I don't really identify with this.

    Under stress, a lot of times I just want to be not prodded. But I know this is rather unrealistic since this attitude can carry on for quite a long time, and naturally people will want answers if it goes on for any extended period of time. It's just that incessant questioning bothers me. I feel like my character is under attack when I have to constantly question myself.

    Empathy and sympathy is appreciated but it usually doesn't make me feel better. I don't feel any better that other people have it worse or that I'm not alone in the situation. It doesn't help mainly because I already know that ().

    What helps me the most in these situations is company. Knowing that someone is there is rather comforting. And I don't mean in the physical sense like I have to have someone 5 feet away from me. I just mean moral support. The tide eventually passes, and it just helps reassurance if I have someone's support and I know they know that I'm going to get through it instead of lingering doubt that they might give up, throw their hands in the air and go (and it's the manner in which this is said, not necessarily the words themselves) "Well, I don't know what else to do, I give up. You figure this out on your own, because I've done everything I can." to which I would think to myself "Well, that's what I'm trying to do, damn it." and basically feel like I wouldn't be able to talk with that person when the time comes that I'd be ready to talk about it.

    These things are always more complicated than they really should be, but it's difficult to think like that and in those terms when under that kind of swirl of thoughts.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    What I want from others is for them to pull me out of my own thoughts for some seconds. I like when people take me on trips to see nature or historical places. Adventure of any kind. I can be pretty lost in my own brain, and a break from being too introspect is always nice - I often need help to take breaks, even if I know I need them. Invite me for a walk, and talk about everything else but my problems. That's perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    And honestly, I have no idea what would make me feel better. Maybe hanging out with friends a bit, but doing something more low-key... Just being around people can help me regulate my mood so I don't get sucked into my head and forget that reality isn't that bad.
    Yes. These are great and very welcome.
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    The ENFP finds symbolic meanings behind the immediate circumstances. These meanings are construed as foreboding problems when ENFPs are under stress.
    I thought of something else about this. I jump to conclusions too much when the pressure is on me or when I feel compelled to assess or respond to something. Like I almost feel like I gather just enough information to make a statement that properly addresses the issue. A lot of times when I do this, I go back and I read points I glossed over or flat out missed that actually add to my understanding and many times it still falls within the bounds of the statements that I made, as in "Wow, I didn't see this before, I'm lucky that I didn't say anything ridiculous that would have overlooked this point."

    I rush to answers and conclusions when I feel under the gun. But when I'm an observer or bystander, I have much more time to assess and evaluate.

    I'm saying this because I think this is partially what causes these symbolized events -- assessing the event too quickly and reaching a conclusion that is not logical and not correct.
    INFj

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    it takes a lot for me to show my stress (and I'd bet this is true of most IEEs), but when it's past that breaking point, I surprise myself. I get very short tempered and I obsesss about little stupid details and blow them out of proportion. This is the time when every thing I need suddenly becomes impossible, stores are out-of-stock of esential items, clerks won't do what I need them to, the whole city is in gridlock, etc. I'll end up needing to run from appointment to appointment and things still won't get done.

    I can really get caught up in a "the world is ending" sort of mindset. that's when I really need someone to be like "duh, no it's not." So maybe that's why duality works there.

    I also get more competitive when I get to that point of stress and will really look at people trying to one-up me in an extra negative way.

    I'll also make tons of lists and see how many things I can check off and reallly won't relax at all until everything is done, even if that takes weeks. At that point everything becomes work, even parties and social activities, and that sucks. I think I need enough time to unwind and enjoy things.

    Stress is No fun...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    how many enfp's relate to that ? If so, how do the bolded parts manifest - examples? how would the enfp like to be treated under stress. I can't imagine being overly sympathetic with Ni, I think that might feel claustrophobic to them. how do you sympathize with an enfp?
    I dont relate to this. If Im stressed usually Im down on myself for procrastinating or something but not usually down on other people. I do sometimes fill pinned down by responsiblities but then again what can I say, I asked for them, one way or another and if I were free, Id probably accumulate more. Life just has its ups and downs and stresses. I just see it as part of reality and push on through.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    When im stressed I usually block myself from the outside and linger in my own thoughts and that is the only pattern that I can think of.

    I could jump and say I relate to it, but what was described is really not a necessary reaction when stressed, for example:

    "Not feeling like themselves, the ENFP will become subject to their own feelings of shame for being a phony, a fake or an impostor."

    I don't need to feel stressed to sometimes feel like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    it takes a lot for me to show my stress (and I'd bet this is true of most IEEs), but when it's past that breaking point, I surprise myself. I get very short tempered and I obsesss about little stupid details and blow them out of proportion. This is the time when every thing I need suddenly becomes impossible, stores are out-of-stock of esential items, clerks won't do what I need them to, the whole city is in gridlock, etc. I'll end up needing to run from appointment to appointment and things still won't get done.

    I can really get caught up in a "the world is ending" sort of mindset. that's when I really need someone to be like "duh, no it's not." So maybe that's why duality works there.

    I also get more competitive when I get to that point of stress and will really look at people trying to one-up me in an extra negative way.

    I'll also make tons of lists and see how many things I can check off and reallly won't relax at all until everything is done, even if that takes weeks. At that point everything becomes work, even parties and social activities, and that sucks. I think I need enough time to unwind and enjoy things.

    Stress is No fun...
    EP Bunny on speed

    Ugh that really does sound stressful.
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    When im stressed I usually block myself from the outside and linger in my own thoughts and that is the only pattern that I can think of.

    I could jump and say I relate to it, but what was described is really not a necessary reaction when stressed, for example:

    "Not feeling like themselves, the ENFP will become subject to their own feelings of shame for being a phony, a fake or an impostor."

    I don't need to feel stressed to sometimes feel like that.
    You're right... It's not describing "stress" so much as spleen.

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    I've seen ENFps act that way when stressed.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    The deceptions can be as simple as telling people "I'm all right." But the distinguishing factor isn't so much the act of telling people "I'm all right" when I'm really not (since anyone can do that), but rather a level of conscious awareness within myself that I'm really not ok/things don't seem or feel right and forcefully putting on a façade on my "public" face to not draw unwanted questioning of why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling.
    Hmm... I'm currently dealing with a situation w/an IEE who is behaving precisely this way. But being contrary, my inclination as IEI is to vent and never have to use the façade because it takes too much effort.

    I think I've probably approached him incorrectly-- asking what's wrong (because I can see how visibly disturbed he is) and wanting him to open up to me. But it's obvious he doesn't feel comfortable with me asking or even being keenly aware that he's upset. It's really difficult for me not to reach out to someone I care for when they're obviously in some kind of anguish. Just letting him be feels like I'm doing nothing and just being shut out.

    It's occurred to me that my wanting to be his "confidant" is somewhat ego-driven, since I identify strongly with this role. Rationally, I know it's not really about me...

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Symbolic meanings. Yeah this is simply because I read too deeply into things. But it can also be instances where some deviation from a known safe pattern will cause me to think that the results will be devastating.

    I can remember instances earlier in my life where I'd be superstitious about things like the order in which I put on my clothes in the morning. Like if I deviated from a particular order (even if I "started over" that wouldn't work because I already messed it up) that would indicate a bad omen that something bad was probably going to happen.
    This sounds a bit like O-C personality traits. Also, like Jung's original typological description of inferior introverted intuition.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    This can also be in more general terms when an event (small or large) happens and I immediately read into what the event implies. Like if someone responds to me in some way that causes me to question/doubt myself or worries me about the implications of what I just said, etc etc.
    An event recently occurred involving myself and the IEE where he jumped to a conclusion regarding something I did. He wouldn't ask me directly to clarify the situation, instead he chose to question my friend as to my motivations and made inferences based on her (insufficient and incomplete) answers. I can only infer myself what actually bothered him, because he won't talk to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    As far as the attribution of malevolent schemes to others, this almost sounds like using some sort of excuse that other people are causing this, therefore my fears/acting fake are justified. Which, I have to be honest, I don't really identify with this.
    Maybe "malevolent schemes" is too strong a term? What about "deliberately acting against you" or "trying to manipulate you"...? I really have gotten that feeling-- that he believes my behavior is an emotional manipulation ploy directed to get a reaction from him.

    I tend to think this is some kind of projection.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Under stress, a lot of times I just want to be not prodded. But I know this is rather unrealistic since this attitude can carry on for quite a long time, and naturally people will want answers if it goes on for any extended period of time. It's just that incessant questioning bothers me. I feel like my character is under attack when I have to constantly question myself.

    Empathy and sympathy is appreciated but it usually doesn't make me feel better. I don't feel any better that other people have it worse or that I'm not alone in the situation. It doesn't help mainly because I already know that ().


    I just want to know what's going on when I'm involved...! So far, it's now almost 2 weeks of being in the dark. It's like the situation is hanging over my head, unresolved and festering. The problem with is that you don't always believe things will "just eventually work out", so you actively try to work them out to change the trajectory.

    If I don't *know*, I'm going to assume the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    What helps me the most in these situations is company. Knowing that someone is there is rather comforting. And I don't mean in the physical sense like I have to have someone 5 feet away from me. I just mean moral support. The tide eventually passes, and it just helps reassurance if I have someone's support and I know they know that I'm going to get through it instead of lingering doubt that they might give up, throw their hands in the air and go (and it's the manner in which this is said, not necessarily the words themselves) "Well, I don't know what else to do, I give up. You figure this out on your own, because I've done everything I can." to which I would think to myself "Well, that's what I'm trying to do, damn it." and basically feel like I wouldn't be able to talk with that person when the time comes that I'd be ready to talk about it.

    These things are always more complicated than they really should be, but it's difficult to think like that and in those terms when under that kind of swirl of thoughts.
    Thanks for the elucidation. It's been helpful for me trying to understand this facet of IEE behavior. I think my main problem in approaching this issue is that I really tend to fear when someone pushes me away, it's always permanent. It's rather a complex.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    Maybe "malevolent schemes" is too strong a term? What about "deliberately acting against you" or "trying to manipulate you"...? I really have gotten that feeling-- that he believes my behavior is an emotional manipulation ploy directed to get a reaction from him.

    I tend to think this is some kind of projection.
    Ahh, I think this is more accurate. In times of stress in more extreme cases this might be the thought pattern if I feel too much pressure. My focus shifts to try to find a way to some respite instead of on addressing the outstanding issue. I've felt this way with my mom in particular during and after my college days. Though I never really felt like she was "deliberately acting against me", I did/do feel a very palpable force to try to get me to do things under her agenda, despite being independent. Though this behavior is understandable considering that she's my mom, it is still no less stressful to have heaps of obligation about what I should/shouldn't be doing with my life in various areas, like, career, frequency of visiting family, contact frequency, and so on.

    But having company that allows me to get my mind off of this mire is very welcoming and beneficial, I think. This I think is basically what I seek to find when I'm trying to find a respite or to get away. My attention can shift very quickly and rapidly from area to area, and if I'm involved in some low-key activity with a friend or friends, it will inevitably shift my focus off of the mired thoughts I fester myself in under stress.

    But being in the midst of a group of people that I sense a ... "I don't know what to do with you/I don't know what to do" vibe is like a ... it's like a blanket of constant pressure. I crawl even deeper into the recesses of my mind, more sensitively aware of what is being said, the body language, the tone, the atmospheric vibe... basically constantly feeling like "I really don't want to be here right now, but I can't say that."

    But yes, doing various random, low-key activities that help me to get my mind off of it do really help me.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Sometimes I just want to give you guys a hug. I never know what to say to a stressed ENFp, and I don't think words are necessarily called-for anyway [as you seem to confirm here]. I suspect a hug would go a long way.

    *E-hug*

    Now, let's go for a walk....

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    A walk would be very well appreciated that's for sure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    Now, let's go for a walk....
    I'd like that.


    INFj

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    A hug would go a very long way. Today is actually one of those days where I just need a freakin' hug.
    IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    Hmm... I'm currently dealing with a situation w/an IEE who is behaving precisely this way. But being contrary, my inclination as IEI is to vent and never have to use the façade because it takes too much effort.

    I think I've probably approached him incorrectly-- asking what's wrong (because I can see how visibly disturbed he is) and wanting him to open up to me. But it's obvious he doesn't feel comfortable with me asking or even being keenly aware that he's upset. It's really difficult for me not to reach out to someone I care for when they're obviously in some kind of anguish. Just letting him be feels like I'm doing nothing and just being shut out.

    It's occurred to me that my wanting to be his "confidant" is somewhat ego-driven, since I identify strongly with this role. Rationally, I know it's not really about me...
    So the IEE you know is a guy? I think the guys might be more likely to not want to vent during stress. I dated a IEE who would never talk when he was stressed. He'd tell me one sentence like "I'm freaked out about this work project tomorrow" but then the would sink into a sort of numb depression where I couldn't talk to him anymore.

    I personally like to vent to IEIs as they are great listeners. However, I won't vent on my own unless I"m extremely stressed...otherwise I will wait to be asked specific questions about what is going on.

    Another way to get the IEE to open up, is to openly discuss intimate details of your life, or your feeling on various issues. So if they seem closed on a topic, put yourself out there first and reveal your intenion/motivation or feeling about the topic. That will make it easier for the IEE to open up, as during times of stress we do tend to be guarded and somewhat paranoid that people will use our disclosures against us.

    I think it's never bad to ask what is wrong. Also, this may be me only, but I like a somewhat bold approach, in that if someone is really my friend, I want them to sit me down and be like, wait what's going on here? What's wrong? We don't want to burden others with our problems, so we need someone to ask specifically and make it OK for us to vent.

    A hug is also a good idea. However, the IEE guy I dated didn't like to be hugged when he was stressed. He wanted to be alone and stare at the wall basically. And I can be like that too. Except if I feel the person really understands me and why I'm upset, then I like the hug.

    But there really is only so much you can do, as IEEs hate to be controlled/manipulated in any way and tend to rebel. However, if I got a sincere message from someone that they were concered and wanted to know if they could help, etc, I would like that. I like a long, in-depth sort of thing, so I don't think it's just a polite "oh did you need help?" sorta thing, but a sincere "I really care" sort of thing.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    I had a lot of different thoughts when I read the original post of this thread. The following is only some of them, and even they aren't complete, I'm sure. (After I write this then I'll read what others wrote.)


    During times of stress, yes, I feel alienated. I feel separated from friends, from family, from loved ones, from pets, from myself even. Is this an NeFi thing? I think it's probably more of a human thing.

    One of the most common and non-consciously done actions that people do when under stress is to detach or disassociate from the stress, the situation/people causing the stress, life, emotions, etc. Somehow people have to relieve the stress, and detachment is a common coping mechanism.


    I dislike the sentence " They then engage in deceptions that serve to obscure what is occurring within themselves." Sounds to me like it's written from an outsiders pov rather than an insiders pov.

    If I'm under stress and a person comes up to me and asks me, "what's wrong?" I'll often say "I'll be ok" or "don't worry about it". Is that 'engaging in deceptions'? No. Depending on the situation, I know that as hard as it is now, eventually I will overcome or bypass it and I WILL be ok. Maybe not now, maybe not in a week, maybe not even in a year. If I say I'll be ok, I'm saying that I know that life isn't over, that I WILL be ok, eventually. So don't worry about me, I’m not going to kill myself or anything like that.

    If I say "don't worry about it", I could have different thoughts running through my head. Maybe I know that there's nothing that YOU can do, or it doesn't affect YOU directly, so there's no reason why YOU should have to worry about it. This is MY problem, not YOURS. Maybe I don't trust that you'll give me the kind of feedback or information that I need. Maybe it's just because I don't feel you'll understand what I'm going through. Or that you'll somehow try to belittle it. Or dismiss my feelings/thoughts. Etc. There are numerous reasons why I'll say "don't worry about it".

    Often times, I don't even know myself yet what is wrong. What am I really supposed to say when this is the case? "what's wrong?" "oh, I don't know" "then why are you worried?" "I don't know" "what are you worried about?" "I…Don't…Know!!!" These kinds of convers never go well. I don't want to get into conflict with you. I don't want to have to worry about your feelings at the moment. For some reason I'm stressed, I don't know why, but I am. That's not going to change, so just leave me alone and then I won't have to worry about us getting into a fight, or me saying the wrong thing and hurting your feelings, etc. I DON'T KNOW what I'm going to say if I say anything because I don't know what's going on in me. So No, I don't want to talk about it right now, I don't trust what I may or may not say. "don't worry" or there's "nothing" to say right now.


    Do NeFi's find symbolic meanings behind the immediate circumstances? Something about this bothers me, but I'm not sure what. I think because I see a difference between 'symbolic meaning' vs 'getting to the essence of the problem'. To me 'symbolic meaning' is something like what's done in literature and movies and art, etc. Where farm animals represent opposing political parties, or an egg represents new life, etc. I don't do that. Metaphors yes, similes yes, but not to that extreme. At least not that I know of. But I do try to find the essence of the problem. What it boils down to. If I can figure that out, then I can (hopefully) figure out a solution.

    If I'm stressed I want to know what actions I can take to remove the stress. But in order to do this I have to step outside of my comfort zone (which usually the stress has already pushed me out of). I have to do things and think about things that I don't normally do/think about. This in itself is stressful. I get caught. Caught between wanting to be me, wanting to be back in my comfort zone, vs needing to do things that I'm not used to doing, that I'm not confident in doing, that I've no experience nor knowledge to guide me. And I'm having to freakin do this By My Self!! Worse, life still goes on! I still have my 'duties', I still have to take care of my kid, I still have to feed us, I still have to go to work, I still have to keep a cheerful fa&#231;ade at work or I risk losing my job, etc. People are STILL demanding that I do things for them. People are STILL demanding that I be all loving and happy go lucky, and heaven forbid I want a freakin break!
    And…yes... the problem... is still... There. . . . . making it's own demands on me.

    The intensity of these feelings, the feelings of not knowing what to do, not knowing what the actual issue is, not being able to take a break, feeling all those demands made on me…the insecurities about the efforts I'm making to try to think this through, the insecurities due to the lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and knowing that this issue could very well have come out of my own lack of foresight… these wreck havoc on one's self esteem. I don't think type matters in this. Though perhaps which things bring on the questioning of one's self may vary from type to type. This bombardment of insecure feelings lead to stupid (to me after the fact) thoughts of "I'm stupid", "maybe I'm not walking my talk", "maybe I've not really been myself", "maybe I'm not as confident or as effective as people think I am", "maybe I don't know as much as some people think I do", etc etc.


    What I really need, when things are like this, when I'm stressed…
    I really need to not have the focus be on ME. Don't look at me as we're talking, the problem isn't ME. Maybe something I did, or said, or something that happened to me. But that's not ME. Sit beside me. Walk with me, preferably. Walk with me and as we are both looking at the trail or the path we're walking, then I can talk about it. I don't know what I'm going to say. I'm pretty much just brainstorming. But if you're not looking into my eyes, then I'm free to toss things out there until I find something that feels right, that resonates within me. (If you're looking into my eyes, and expecting me to look into yours, then I feel pressured to have to tell you the conclusion before I've even had a chance to think about it.)

    Don't talk about ME, unless it's needed. Talk about the issue. Talk about the actions. Give me information you've heard. Describe to me a similar experience you had and how you solved it. Talk about the experience. But don't talk about ME. That's the surest way to get me to clam up. You want me to open up and share? Then I need you to share as well. If what you share resonates with what's going on with me, then I'll feel as if you might understand ME. If it doesn't resonate, then obviously there's no sense in my describing it to you. You give a little, then I'll give a little. As you progressively get deeper and closer to the issue, I'll progressively trust you more and more with this particular issue. But just because I share with you on one issue, doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly start sharing with you on all issues. And if I don’t share with you? It's nothing meant to be personal, or a criticism of you as a person. It just means that for this particular instance….there's no feeling of connection.

    Another way of helping me is by asking me questions. Questions that are designed to help me clarify muddied up thoughts. Questions that go into which steps needed to be taken, and how those steps CAN be taken. What are some of the realistic things that I'm missing or skipping over, or flat out ignoring? What information do I need in order to take those steps…or to even figure out which steps need to be taken? Guide me by offering me information, but don't freakin tell me what to do.

    If you can't help me that way, then help me by offering to take care of things that you CAN and are WILLING and perhaps even ENJOY taking care of. Take some of those demands off my shoulders. Guide me by offering info or questions on how I might delegate some of my responsibilities that need to be set aside while I’m figuring out this issue. You've got a sister who has kids the same age? See if the kids can have a few play dates during this stressful time period. This way I don't have to worry about my child's well being and social life, etc. You don't mind cooking? Offer to make me a few meals that can be frozen and pulled as needed so I don't have to deal with what to cook, when to eat, etc. If these mundane things are covered, then I can put more attention and energy into solving the problem. Maybe all you can do is help lessen the distractions. Turn the tv down low or even off. Keep the lights limited…or if I'm working on papers, make sure that I’m in a well lit area and not stressing my eyes. Reduce the amount of sensory input so that more energy can go into the mental efforts. And when I need a break, or especially when I feel a need to draw from someone else's energy reserves…let me feel free to wrap my arms around you, or seek comfort in your arms. Just hold me, caress me, play with my hair. If your breathing is calm, and your heartbeat slow and regular, mine will slow down to match. And as my stressed ones come to match your calm ones, I begin to feel more calm, and more energized, and eventually ready to put in some more effort. And if you start to feel the wetness of tears, don't freak out. Stay calm. When I'm ready, I'll talk about it. And if you're calm, then I can be calm too.
    Last edited by anndelise; 09-12-2008 at 08:42 PM. Reason: altering "enfp" to "NeFi"
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I had a lot of different thoughts when I read the original post of this thread. The following is only some of them, and even they aren't complete, I'm sure. (After I write this then I'll read what others wrote.)

    ....
    You... are a beautiful person...
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Thankyou everyone. The thoughts and perspectives have helped a lot. especially yours anndelise.


    juju the original can be found here. mbti related.


    Mimosa Pudica..Im trying to figure that out :$

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ali View Post
    juju the original can be found here. mbti related.
    No offense, but these descriptions suck. I've read them before on another site. The descriptions are typical for MBTI: mostly created from theory, with all the consequences of a bad theory.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    When I get too stressed, I will withdraw, and go into a very introspect state where I look for answers inside. I'll probably question if my life is going in the right direction, and I will often change directions. People often mention that ENFps seem to escape unpleasant situations too easily. I don't really see it that way. The easy path is to not change things that are bad for you, - the easy path is to just live a straight-forward life. I don't connect with the feeling of anxiety at all.
    As fs as I'm concerned, you just described typical IEE behavior. The underlying idea is indeed that something is wrong, therefore something must be changed. A quest for answers begins, and the IEE will take it as far as it needs to, and will even go 'places' that many other types don't even know exists, or are afraid to go to.

    I must say, however, that I increasingly agree with Rick, who says that often all an IEE (or was it IxE?) needs, is a good nights sleep (I assume he basically means they need Si based things). So the IEE strategy of retreating within themselves often is counterproductive. Why do it the easy way when you can do it the hard way??
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post


    I've thought the same thing many times. I know that if I take a walk for 20 minutes it will probably calm me down more than if I look for answers in here or in me for 20 hours. Still I prefer the latter.... I need help to get that walk.

    You could say I'm desperately Si-needing, but I'm not sure I'm Si-seeking.......
    Tell me all about it... Fortunately I have an SEI gf, and I increasingly take her advice
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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