Judging People - Fi vs Fe

[Rubicon]

How exactly does Fi go about making judgments about people? When new information is received that isn't consistent with the opinion that is held about the person, is everything discarded and reevaluated from scratch? Or is the information just assimilated and the judgment modified accordingly?

To me, Fe is more about impressions of people. They are very open-ended with no definite borders so relevant information can flow in and out with no resistance. The impressions are constantly changing, but generally smoothly so that they don't feel like they are. I don't like to sum up my relationship status with a person, because I'd feel that it would only represent a snapshot in time ... which is hardly satisfactory when you're in a moving picture. How can you box something that's constantly evolving? My past impressions of people are all static though. When I look back, I can clearly define static relationships at different points in time.

[Rubicon]

BLauritson! What happened to your post? I found it very enlightening! (c:

[BLauritson]

Oh right...I'll repost it then. I'd just re-read it and thought although it was describing Fi, I didn't think it really answered the question you'd asked, so I figured considering how long it was it wouldn't really be fair for people to read all that only to not really answer anything. Anyway, it's reposted below:

Hmm.. I've thought quite a bit about this before actually. I think the way I see Fi in general is...it's almost like an accumulation of Fe states in a way...I'm trying to think of a way to compare it to Ti. I suppose in some ways, Ti is like a system that's built up of and built around pieces of Te information, which is then (eventually) refined into a complete To system. At least, I think that's how I understand it anyway. But either way I think it's a similar sort of concept with Fi. Just like Ti can go a long way with only small amounts of Te (because it becomes static as it were) I think Fi does the same. And so, it's like a balancing act...well, not a balancing act in that sense, but it's like a pair of scales. Imagine on one scale you have positive and on the other you have negative. And how you feel about someone is like an accumulation of the weights in either scale and whichever scale is the heaviest is the one that Fi leans towards, if you see what I mean. I think one stereotype of Fi, or at least how I perceive it, is that if you do the slightest thing to offend an Fi-ego, or Fi-valuer, they'll hate you for the rest of their life. Obviously it's an exaggeration, but you see where I'm getting at. But the way I see Fi working is that, if the positives still outweight the negatives, then the negatives will be forgiven. If, on the other hand, the negatives are severe enough to outweight the positives, that's when Fi starts to turn nasty. But it's not just a binary switch of nice or nasty, but rather a more continuous scale. If the negatives outweight the positives, but only slightly, then the object of the Fi-valuer's attention might be disliked a little bit. If, on the other hand, the negatives outweight the positives very severely, then the Fi-valuer would be much less likely to forgive the object in question and would have a much stronger dislike or even hatred for it. But I think people like Expat tend to over-emphasise the negative side of Fi. And the vindictiveness comes from having Se in the same block as Fi, but only when Fi is negative enough to warrant it. I think Se essentially boils down to taking action in this regard, and so if the Fi is negative, then the Se will need to take action to resolve it. Whether resolving means negotiating with the offending party or destroying them (so to speak) varies depending on the individual and the circumstances. I remember some time ago I was thinking about my tendency to hold grudges against people who have wronged me in some way (again, resulting in the negatives outweighing the positives) and why I seem to dwell on them so much. And it occurred to me that, with Fi and Se in the super-id, I can only let go of a grudge when there's been action taken to resolve it. The action could be anything from making amends to getting revenge. As long as the action is appropriate for the issue, then the grudge is resolved and forgotten about. So I suppose in conclusion, while there is indeed a vindictive aspect to Gamma Fi, it's only one of many aspects of it; albeit quite an extreme aspect. And it's possibly also why people didn't really refute the vindictive aspect of it, because it is a part of it, but not the whole picture. If a positive Fi bond is strong enough, it can even go to the extent of self-sacrificing in order to help someone rather than to harm them, if the individual Fi-valuer feels that that person "deserves it". Which really just means if their Fi criteria approve of it, then they can take the relevant Se action. And I think this is where the loyalty aspect comes into it. It doesn't mean to say that Fi-valuers are automatically loyal or that Ti-valuers aren't loyal, since that in itself can be down to individual personality traits. But I think for people who are loyal, who/what they are loyal to depends on which value system they align themselves with, i.e. Fi or Ti. If a Fi-valuer is loyal to something Ti-related, it's because their Fi allows it. If a Ti-valuer is loyal to something Fi-related, it's because their Ti allows it. Or at least that's how I understand it.

[Blaze]

excellent example of why ILEs cannot redeem themselves around an ESI. because they focus on every single little social error they see the ILE as commiting....even if ILE didn't really mean it.

take a look at the stratiyevskaya description of ILE...it's totally fucking unrelenting.

[Wittmont]

Superb stuff BLauritson. That goes a long way towards explaining Gamma concept loyalty. A concept I've spent some time pondering since it can lead to some pretty convoluted judgements and actions by Gammas.

[Ms. Kensington]

BLauritson! What happened to your post? I found it very enlightening! (c:

bl aims to please.

Um not sure about the judging .. like.. how do Fx dominants behave? How do Feelers conclude things about people? I think Hostage Child enlightened me about Fi a little bit. I think that Jem sort of sounded Fe when she said "how can you judge something that is always changing"?

[Blaze]

Superb stuff BLauritson. That goes a long way towards explaining Gamma concept loyalty. A concept I've spent some time pondering since it can lead to some pretty convoluted judgements and actions by Gammas.

ain't that the truth. my agency keeps a senior manager around even though she kills programs. she's not qualified to have the position that she does, but because she's worked there for 25 years, she's dubbed as loyal, and there fore not only keeps her job but is promoted.

even though she's clearly incompetent. i feel like asking my LIE CEO, hey what gives, isn't your Te picking up on these interesting facts about this person?? lol

[XoX]

To me, Fe is more about impressions of people. They are very open-ended with no definite borders so relevant information can flow in and out with no resistance. The impressions are constantly changing, but generally smoothly so that they don't feel like they are.

That's pretty clever description. As it makes it seem like Fe works with impressions just like Te works with objective information. And Fi works with relations just like Ti works with logical constructs. The extroverted functions are dynamic and ever changing and introverted functions are static and resist change. They just work in different realms of information. Actually this is pretty obvious but I never thought about it this way before.

[Blaze]

MP: hubbie's right. she's not gonna change. make like a duck and let it flow over you, screw the emotional atmosphere, screw the relation. it's all about MAKING IT GO AWAY so you can get back to your life.

[Blaze]

Exactly. You see, my Fi has told me so for years. I'm just a big idiot trying on an on.

And my husband isn't right. I mean, if I stop listening, it won't be for the Fe. It will be as you said - I'll screw both Fe and Fi.

yeah...i meant he was right that she's not going to change.

this family issue is extremely difficult. letting go of what your family thinks, whether they approve of you or not, striving for that fantasy better relationship. bah.

what's even more interesting is that when you decide that you no longer care and this is reflected in your actions, you family will begin to pressure you to change back to your old predictable self. so you'll feel a powerful force to continue as you once did....in this way, the family pattern can ingrain itself.

the only way is to continue to not care, and go about your adult life. good luck - i think i need it too! (even at my age)

[Rubicon]

I'll give you an example of me valuing Fi>Fe and my ILE husband, having the opposite preference.

My mother and I have a communication problem, and that is a real sorrow for me, as I'd like for us to be close. She says a lot of things that really hurt my feelings.
My husband hears this, but advices me to just let the painful comments pass without commenting on them, pretend they were never spoken, and all this to keep a pleasant ambient when my mother and I meet. This is a Fe-advice. However, the Fe-advice doesn't make any sense to me in this particular case, as it's my mother we're talking about, and as I want a good relation to her. I feel that if I let her insults about my life choices and personality pass without commenting, I'm choosing to not listen to her, and that is a permanent choice, thus I immediately make a choice to permanently not respect her opinions. It will be a failed relation. So I reason with her, trying to make her "understand" me "permanently"(Fi). I have this obsession thinking that if I can just get her to understand me and accept that I'm different, then we don't have to agree, but we can respect each other in the future . I would rather have a good emotional relation (Fi) with her than to have a good time right here right now (Fe). If a good emotional atmosphere (Fe) was my prime goal, I'd just avoid her all the time. (Obviously I'd prefer both good Fe and good Fi.)

(I do realize I probably won't ever have a good relation with her, so in a way I should just let the words pass... But when I finally get to that point, it won't be to gain a good emotional atmosphere (Fe), but because I know a good relation won't ever happen, so I could just as well go for the good Fe. I just can't stop trying. Thus the grief I feel. When I stop listening, It won't be because Fe becomes more important to me. It will be because I'll finally admit that my Fi was right - we will never have a good relation. I wouldn't normally try to change what my Fi has told is useless. With other people insulting my on and on, I would just avoid them, and then disrespect them by letting insults fly uncommented. But it's my mother. It's difficult.)

It's not as simple as Fe being just all about a good emotional atmosphere in the present. Just because Fe is gathering and processing information in the present doesn't mean it can't be used for long-term goals - that there can't be vision behind the use of it. Fe can be used to further an Fi agenda. Not to say I know what you're going through, though I sympathise, but I think there is something to just letting some things pass. You're talking about Fe being about the present emotional environment, but it seems to me that what you're doing is all about the present rather than keeping your goal in mind. Excuse me for jumping to conclusions if they're wrong, but maybe you're too consistently protesting and pulling your mother up on what she's saying. If you let some things slide in the present, this may get your mother's attention more than your usual reaction which may be so expected by now that it hardly registers on your mother's radar. And letting things slide in the present doesn't mean to say you're being dishonest or untrue to yourself - you're just not taking your mother's bait like she probably expects you to. Maybe it is a lost cause - I don't know - but I would think a potentially good relationship with your mother is worth trying different tactics for. I don't think there's much wrong with using Fe for manipulation purposes if you have a worthy goal in mind. Of course there are multiple ways you could use your Fe to get her attention, yelling or whatever, but I just think it may be worth trying to shake things up a bit.

[Expat]

This thread has contained more useful information than most recent threads.

I agree with BLauritson's post.

excellent example of why ILEs cannot redeem themselves around an ESI. because they focus on every single little social error they see the ILE as commiting....even if ILE didn't really mean it.

take a look at the stratiyevskaya description of ILE...it's totally fucking unrelenting.

You tend to refer it to "social errors", and I disagree with that, or at least it's necessary to define what is meant by "social". Some people would say that a "social error" is, for instance, bad table manners, or an inclination to drink just a bit too much in any social occasion and behave in a slightly embarrassing, but harmless, way; or doing things like abruptly interrupting others, etc. These are the kind of "social errors" ESIs generally dont' care much about.

What they do care about, and are indeed "unrelenting", and I have observed this with both SLEs and ILEs, are "loyalty errors". For instance, if someone repeats in public what the ESI told in confidence. In that case, yes, "every little loyalty error" is stored and added to the Fi understanding of the person.

I can relate to the PM stuff. For those I feel a strong bond with (despite me not showing my feelings and being afraid to stain those feelings by presenting them to the world), I can see myself, in my mind, making a noble sacrifice, Se style, for the sake of the one who I have that attachment towards. I skimmed over it at first, but it makes a lot of sense.

"how can you judge something that is always changing"? I found that statement interesting as Fe seems to be about impressions one gets from someone upon interaction and one day the impression can be negative but provided a change on another day, the impression can totally change. Maybe.

I think Fi takes into account how someone previously has acted and makes note of a person's ethical trend, making them more liable to skepticism that a person has truly changed based on the current impression. Like, if someone I know is typically good-willed and is having an asshole or bitch day, I recognize that something is off in this person's life and I'm concerned about the person, I guess, though I choose to butt out of their business. If someone is usually an asshat and has typically expressed himself in ways that violates my code of ethics (if I think they are universal ethics versus ethics that apply particularly to me because of a religious or philosophical standing), I may never trust the person fully, no matter how nice they act towards me. I'll always be hesitant in dealing with this person and be wondering if there are ulterior motives involved. I greatly distrust surface impressions though if they do try to act cordially with me, I won't act like a jerk to them. Even if they act otherwise, I'll ignore them or still try to be cordial in order to protect my own dignity (which I hold as extremely precious, more so than most anything, I'll admit.).

Yep.

That's pretty clever description. As it makes it seem like Fe works with impressions just like Te works with objective information. And Fi works with relations just like Ti works with logical constructs. The extroverted functions are dynamic and ever changing and introverted functions are static and resist change. They just work in different realms of information. Actually this is pretty obvious but I never thought about it this way before.

Yes I think that's a good way of putting it. Ti uses Te information to "refine" itself - an expression that Ti-valuers often use, ime, since they dislike the idea that they changed their conclusions totally - but it's important that the "core" remains, so "building" on it . And the same for Fi with Fe.

[Blaze]

@expat: i think we are probably defining social errors differently. i didn't mean table manners. i meant Fi polr type of errors, which i think has to do more with boundaries than miss manners.

[Expat]

@expat: i think we are probably defining social errors differently. i didn't mean table manners. i meant Fi polr type of errors, which i think has to do more with boundaries than miss manners.

I thought as much, but I thought it was important to make it clear.

[Slacker]

I like the image of Fi being like scales, with positives on one side and negatives on the other. That is pretty accurate in my experience. And the part about Se getting involved by needing to take action, well with weak Se what I do is I just back away and cut off contact with someone. I've really hurt some feelings with that but I can't seem to confront people (weak Se) and I am not comfortable maintaining a relationship once those scales get too off-balance, so I'm left with just disappearing. I can see the description of having to take action when someone unbalances the scales in my ISFj brother. He HAS to say SOMETHING.

It seems like people with strong Fe can have these big blow-out arguments and then be best friends again the next day. For me, if someone gets that upset at me and I get that upset at them, that's generally it.

[Sirena]

I like the image of Fi being like scales, with positives on one side and negatives on the other. That is pretty accurate in my experience. And the part about Se getting involved by needing to take action, well with weak Se what I do is I just back away and cut off contact with someone. I've really hurt some feelings with that but I can't seem to confront people (weak Se) and I am not comfortable maintaining a relationship once those scales get too off-balance, so I'm left with just disappearing. I can see the description of having to take action when someone unbalances the scales in my ISFj brother. He HAS to say SOMETHING.

It seems like people with strong Fe can have these big blow-out arguments and then be best friends again the next day. For me, if someone gets that upset at me and I get that upset at them, that's generally it.

I find myself completely relating to most of the things you say. This entire post is true of me too. In regards to the bolded part, I also find that these sorts of explosive arguments affect the core of a relationshp for me. It baffles me how some people are able to go through their lives calling each other names and yelling and somehow consider it normal. They're able to go back to things the way they were without it having affected the relationship itself. Someone blowing up at me this way is definitely a huge red flag and more than enough reason for me to leave the relationship. I can't imagine ever being able to be friends or date someone who communicates in that way.

[Slacker]

I agree to this, but then I'm getting problems seeing how this relates to the "Fi-scales".

It doesn't. Just a tangent.

[Expat]

Yeah that's pretty much that way for me, too. I don't want to deal with emotional explosions. It makes me wonder about when they'll strike next.

[Sirena]

Yeah that's pretty much that way for me, too. I don't want to deal with emotional explosions. It makes me wonder about when they'll strike next.

Definitely makes me very tense to be around a person like this, like they're a ticking time bomb that could go off at any minute.

[Logos]

These "emotional explosions" associated with Fe are not as common as it is perpetuated on the boards. Usually frequent "emotional explosions" are signs of already negative relationships.

[Slacker]

These "emotional explosions" associated with Fe are not as common as it is perpetuated on the boards. Usually frequent "emotional explosions" are signs of already negative relationships.

I never said it was frequent. It only has to happen once to make me wonder about things.

[Wittmont]

These "emotional explosions" associated with Fe are not as common as it is perpetuated on the boards. Usually frequent "emotional explosions" are signs of already negative relationships.

Or simply an unhealthy individual.

[Logos]

I never said it was frequent. It only has to happen once to make me wonder about things.

My comment was not directed at you. But when a number of people start talking about these negative emotional outbursts, it creates the image that it is of frequent occurrence, when the reality is that they are rather infrequent. I recall one ESE snapping in an "emotional explosion" only once in the time that I knew her, and that was as the result of tremendous amount of external pressure. But such emotional effusiveness of Fe-egos essentially allow for the other to be aware of an emotional disturbance that needs to be sorted out. They are letting their emotional states come to the surface instead of bottling it up, ignoring the problem, or cutting off the person. I know it is a difference of Ti vs. Te values, but I appreciate such emotional openness as opposed to constantly feeling that I am standing in the emotional dark as is sometimes the case with Fi-egos.

Or simply an unhealthy individual.

Or that.

[XoX]

I never said it was frequent. It only has to happen once to make me wonder about things.

Imho "lashing out" is Fe related but not necessarily Fe-ego or Fe-valuing related.
Several type descriptions pay attention to the fact that Reinin negativity associated with poor control of Fe can lead to "lashing out".

For example:

"Some ILIs have very poor control over their emotions, and may lash out angrily if provoked.".

"Although ESTjs may appear in control of their emotions they periodically allow flashes of fury to break through."

[Joy]

Fi vs. Ti may be a more useful way of looking at it. Like you said, Fe and Te are more about impressions (at least that's one way of putting it). Fi and Ti are better suited for judging people/situations/whatever based on a value system.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[aestrivex]

"Some ILIs have very poor control over their emotions, and may lash out angrily if provoked.".

fwiw i intend to remove that in the near future. overall i don't think it's necessarily an inaccurate tendency, but the description as a whole is full of statements like this which abjectly fail at painting the picture that you need to understand in order to grasp what Fe polr means.

[Sirena]

You know, a lot of people who I consider really close I've blown up at at least once, yelling at them in an emotional outburst of sorts, and we had a better understanding and closer relationship because of it.

The only people that I did not develop a closer relationship through a big blow-up argument were those who decided we should sweep it all under the rug, didn't want to fix the problem that caused it, or did some kind of crappy fake apology "I'm sorry but I don't think I did anything wrong" kind of thing. Well, if you don't think you did anything wrong, then don't apologize!

So, I guess I don't fit the pattern here for Fi types, since I don't think emotional outbursts from me or another person is anything to end a relationship over. And if we can work out whatever caused it, then we're all the closer for it.

I'm not saying I sweep things under the rug. I think this is as much of a misconception regarding Fi. I simply prefer to discuss things in a calm manner. Seeing someone express themselves to me in an overly emotional manner will immediately cause me to shut down. This doesn't, however, mean that I don't want to talk about whatever might be going on. I have a hard time believing that someone who is not able to keep their cool and maintain "civilized" conversation and will instead resort to yelling and name-calling, is capable of maintaining a healthy relationship. Maybe this is just coming from an Fi point of view. Different things work for different people. I just don't personally see myself able to endure a situation like this, especially if it's a frequent occurrence. But again, I do believe in open communication and talking about things. It is "how" this communication happens that differs, I think.

[Slacker]

Imho "lashing out" is Fe related but not necessarily Fe-ego or Fe-valuing related.
Several type descriptions pay attention to the fact that Reinin negativity associated with poor control of Fe can lead to "lashing out".

For example:

"Some ILIs have very poor control over their emotions, and may lash out angrily if provoked.".

"Although ESTjs may appear in control of their emotions they periodically allow flashes of fury to break through."

People aren't understanding me. It isn't about lashing out. I'm one of the moodiest people on the planet - I have no place to throw stones in that regard and that's not the issue. It's about an interaction style. It seems from my perspective like Fe-valuing people can say what to my ears sound like hurtful comments and sound really upset with each other, but they aren't really upset with each other at all. Or at least it isn't a real issue - like some long-term problem. They can blow up at each other, and to me it will sound like a huge fight, but then the next day they're still great friends. It's an way of interacting that makes me uncomfortable. If I blow up at someone, it'll take some work before I hang out with them again. And I do blow up at people. And if someone blows up at me, it takes work for me to feel comfortable around them again. I can't just be friendly the next day.

Here's what I said again:

It seems like people with strong Fe can have these big blow-out arguments and then be best friends again the next day. For me, if someone gets that upset at me and I get that upset at them, that's generally it.

See? Look, everyone. I don't say that people with Fe get upset more often or worse than anyone else. I say that they get upset and then are friends again as if nothing happened.

[Rubicon]

I'm not saying I sweep things under the rug. I think this is as much of a misconception regarding Fi. I simply prefer to discuss things in a calm manner. Seeing someone express themselves to me in an overly emotional manner will immediately cause me to shut down. This doesn't, however, mean that I don't want to talk about whatever might be going on. I have a hard time believing that someone who is not able to keep their cool and maintain "civilized" conversation and will instead resort to yelling and name-calling, is capable of maintaining a healthy relationship. Maybe this is just coming from an Fi point of view. Different things work for different people. I just don't personally see myself able to endure a situation like this, especially if it's a frequent occurrence. But again, I do believe in open communication and talking about things. It is "how" this communication happens that differs, I think.

What exactly about emotional outbursts make you uncomfortable? The way they affect your emotional state? Or because you feel the other person is in an unstable state? What if you knew that the person was using their emotion as a vehicle of self-expression rather than deliberately trying to affect you? That they were completely in control. Would that bother you still?

[Logos]

See? Look, everyone. I don't say that people with Fe get upset more often or worse than anyone else. I say that they get upset and then are friends again as if nothing happened.

Because nothing fundamentally changed between them in terms of their friendship, only their emotional fluctuations. San Francisco runs its daily business. An earthquake hits San Francisco and some destruction ensues. What happens afterward? Obviously the earthquake happened and the inhabitants do not pretend that there was no earthquake. They repair the damage and then resume life as per usual but knowing that earthquakes could always strike again.

[Rubicon]

Fi arguments:



Fe:

[munenori2]

Why do topics like these always make me think I really have no grasp on the IM elements and/or functions?

[Sirena]

Why do topics like these always make me think I really have no grasp on the IM elements and/or functions?

I don't know, but your avatar is the cutest!

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[Mea]

Ahh, okay, yeah, I can't stand that either. I expect people to say things because they mean it, or because there's a real problem that they need to hash out with me. I don't care if they call me names or whatever in order to get the point across though, if it's real and needs to be addressed then the way they go about it makes no difference, though I would actually prefer the directness of an emotional outburst than sulking or avoiding me, or pointedly ignoring me.

yes. i think Se valuing types would agree with this most.

[Sirena]

People aren't understanding me. It isn't about lashing out. I'm one of the moodiest people on the planet - I have no place to throw stones in that regard and that's not the issue. It's about an interaction style. It seems from my perspective like Fe-valuing people can say what to my ears sound like hurtful comments and sound really upset with each other, but they aren't really upset with each other at all. Or at least it isn't a real issue - like some long-term problem. They can blow up at each other, and to me it will sound like a huge fight, but then the next day they're still great friends. It's an way of interacting that makes me uncomfortable. If I blow up at someone, it'll take some work before I hang out with them again. And I do blow up at people. And if someone blows up at me, it takes work for me to feel comfortable around them again. I can't just be friendly the next day.

This is also how I feel. I'm not saying I'm incapable of blowing up, but the times it does happen, I can't help but see it as something "wrong" that could potentially affect the relationship. I see it as a mistake, something that shouldn't have happened. I don't think I'll ever be able to see this kind of interaction as something normal. That was my point. My ESE mother, on the other hand, will blow up at me...say things that are hurtful to me then turn around 5 minutes later as if nothing had happened. That's always bothered me.

I've been thinking about what you said here for some days. While this is definitely true for the person I am now, I actually used to blow up badly during my teens (mother) and also when quarreling with my EIE ex-boyfriend (he encouraged it even). Because of this and because of your words above, I actually felt I had to rethink my type, as I definitely displayed a lot of thunder and lightning in those days when I felt hurt. I don't react like that anymore, and I honestly didn't like it. I felt completely drained afterwards, I could feel drained for days after a blow out.

I have been this way too, primarily in my teens and in past relationships, where lots of Fe was thrown at me and encouraged. I hated it this so much though. It always made me feel unhealthy and imbalanced. Since then, I have realized that at least for *me*, that isn't a healthy state to be in and have taken steps to prevent from being in similar situations again. A few recent episodes have helped to confirm how tense and unstable this type of communication makes me feel and how much I don't want that in my life. Draining is the right word for it. I am definitely starting to realize that a patient and laid back partner is key. I already process things so emotionally, that I need someone that can give me that calm stability and groundedness.

[Logos]

You should get rid of your ESE mother. You are welcome to use any means. I am not one to cramp or dictate a person's styles. Do the world a favor and rid the world of one less irrational ESE.

[munenori2]

Fi arguments:



Fe:

This comparison makes me sad.