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    Default Enneagram type 5w4s

    I consider myself to be a five with a four wing in particular.

    I've heard tell that INTjs and INFjs cannot type as 5w4s - Phaedrus said it, and it was so. I could conceivably be a 4w5, but when reading multiple descriptions, the 5w4 description is less problematic. I'm not a 9 either...too cheerful. Bloody enneagram.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I consider myself to be a five with a four wing in particular.

    I've heard tell that INTjs and INFjs cannot type as 5w4s - Phaedrus said it, and it was so. I could conceivably be a 4w5, but when reading multiple descriptions, the 5w4 description is less problematic. I'm not a 9 either...too cheerful. Bloody enneagram.
    4w5 makes sense for you, if you are an INFj.

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    I am wondering about the description of 5w4 types as: "The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images."

    For me to say that I "think geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images" seems like a lazy indulgence, being unable to verbalise my thoughts due to sheer lack of ability. But from my self-typing as a -leading type, and/or a -ego type, I have been considering whether assessing and weighing up thoughts in the way I do could be a process where I find balance through maintaining internal harmony (and perhaps aesthetic appeal, as the description alludes to). I find that I generally like to have solid, crystalised conclusions (even if a conclusion is that I know nothing), and perhaps when I ponder on them and explain them to others, I have generalisations and approximations. Establishing conclusions makes me feel prepared, and always gives me a starting point, even if I later alter them somewhat in real-time.

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    Subteigh, I still think you're 5w4. You don't come off like someone who blends into everything and is just calm and apathetic all the time at all. 4w5 maybe since your tritype appears to definitely be 4-5-1 and that's the most "5-ish".

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    [QUOTE=Verbrannte;1162943]Subteigh, I still think you're 5w4. You don't come off like someone who blends into everything and is just calm and apathetic all the time at all. 4w5 maybe since your tritype appears to definitely be 4-5-1 and that's the most "5-ish".[/QUOTE

    I don't mean to hijack Subteigh's thread here, but I've been thinking alot about my own enneagram type lately and I struggle between 5 and 9 for myself as well. Many people have typed me as a 9 because I appear rather calm and easygoing to them. I also hate conflict but if necessary I can confront it. The bolded statement above is why I doubt I am a true 9. I may appear 'calm' on the outside to people but on the inside I'm far more anxious and intense. I'm anything but apathetic.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Subteigh, I still think you're 5w4. You don't come off like someone who blends into everything and is just calm and apathetic all the time at all. 4w5 maybe since your tritype appears to definitely be 4-5-1 and that's the most "5-ish".
    I think the 1 is too worldly and none-intuitive to suit me well - this applies also to the 9, but to a lesser extent in my view - the 9 is more withdrawn from the world, more intent to maintain inner calm without interfering with the external world.

    A recent thought: I know that the 5w4 has been given descriptors such as "Iconoclast" and "Visionary", but I do not especially consider myself as either (...I am wary of reducing things to one-word appellations!), despite what others may perceive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I think the 1 is too worldly and none-intuitive to suit me well - this applies also to the 9, but to a lesser extent in my view - the 9 is more withdrawn from the world, more intent to maintain inner calm without interfering with the external world.

    A recent thought: I know that the 5w4 has been given descriptors such as "Iconoclast" and "Visionary", but I do not especially consider myself as either (...I am wary of reducing things to one-word appellations!), despite what others may perceive.
    So you're back to triple-withdrawn, introverted, and Sp-first? OK... Also, a ton of people seem to equate E9 with Jungian Si, which is about as non-intuitive as it gets IMO. And running around arguing religion doesn't seem super maintain-the-peace to me, it seems like you're deeply concerned about issues of morality. If it's not the core, it basically just sort of filters the core. I found a note in an old journal I wrote years ago where it appears my mom had people in my family do enneagram tests or something and tried to class me as E8 core for reasons explained afterwards, and I complained that I didn't want control all the time, I just didn't want to be controlled and I'm only going to fight back if you try. In retrospect, that sounds more or less like a non-core 8 to me if you use tritypes.

    So am I. It's usually misleading when people do that as well. A lot of the people who use these systems seem to want to use them to avoid Real World Experience as well as to over-simplify people rather than for any either self-improvement or science-y reasons (which are the good reasons to use these because you're not going to get that kind of information without at least a little conscious analysis and systematization). I've always said that the best way to understand human psychology is definitely not to study psychology, but literature if anything, and of course you need to, you know, actually interact with people. The human mind seems like a microcosm for everything else, and I think that's really at that needs to be said regarding people's various attempts to study and reasons for studying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    So you're back to triple-withdrawn, introverted, and Sp-first? OK... Also, a ton of people seem to equate E9 with Jungian Si, which is about as non-intuitive as it gets IMO. And running around arguing religion doesn't seem super maintain-the-peace to me, it seems like you're deeply concerned about issues of morality. If it's not the core, it basically just sort of filters the core. I found a note in an old journal I wrote years ago where it appears my mom had people in my family do enneagram tests or something and tried to class me as E8 core for reasons explained afterwards, and I complained that I didn't want control all the time, I just didn't want to be controlled and I'm only going to fight back if you try. In retrospect, that sounds more or less like a non-core 8 to me if you use tritypes.

    So am I. It's usually misleading when people do that as well. A lot of the people who use these systems seem to want to use them to avoid Real World Experience as well as to over-simplify people rather than for any either self-improvement or science-y reasons (which are the good reasons to use these because you're not going to get that kind of information without at least a little conscious analysis and systematization). I've always said that the best way to understand human psychology is definitely not to study psychology, but literature if anything, and of course you need to, you know, actually interact with people. The human mind seems like a microcosm for everything else, and I think that's really at that needs to be said regarding people's various attempts to study and reasons for studying it.
    I'm not especially sold on the core enneagram types, nevermind the tritypes. The various descriptions, especially with stackings on top of them, only muddle further a typology that I see no real rationale behind & which I tried to make sense of by seeing how it correlated with the Big Five and MBTI self-typings. But that of course is just a representation of feedback, with people stating how they perceive the types. This may be better than relying one individual's perception and representation, but it does not improve my view of the enneagram.

    Essentially, my enneagram self-typing is limited to "9w1 or 5w4 Sp/So", while bearing in mind that others have considered E1 as possible , and So/Sp as possible. I have had various introspections on my enneagram type and tritype in my blog and in threads such as these also: my perceptions of myself are probably rather the same as when the comments were made, even if my understanding of the types has changed. I also bear in mind that, while I do not like the tritypes in their current, undeveloped and nebulous form, based on one analysis of enneagram and MBTI type correlations, 5w4, 4w5, 1w2 may best fit INFJ and 5w4, 4w5, 8w7 may best fit INTJ. This is a large part of why I consider 5w4 as more likely for myself than the E1, and perhaps the E9, and consider 4w5 as a possible primary type. I don't consider this to be especially strong reasoning, but again, it does not seem especially bad in the circumstances either. I think there is a danger of others caring and spending more time on my enneagram type than myself: it doesn't especially bother me anymore, and is unlikely to do so again with the enneagram in its current form. I don't have a big problem with others speculating on my type for their own ends however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I'm not especially sold on the core enneagram types, nevermind the tritypes. The various descriptions, especially with stackings on top of them, only muddle further a typology that I see no real rationale behind & which I tried to make sense of by seeing how it correlated with the Big Five and MBTI self-typings. But that of course is just a representation of feedback, with people stating how they perceive the types. This may be better than relying one individual's perception and representation, but it does not improve my view of the enneagram.

    Essentially, my enneagram self-typing is limited to "9w1 or 5w4 Sp/So", while bearing in mind that others have considered E1 as possible , and So/Sp as possible. I have had various introspections on my enneagram type and tritype in my blog and in threads such as these also: my perceptions of myself are probably rather the same as when the comments were made, even if my understanding of the types has changed. I also bear in mind that, while I do not like the tritypes in their current, undeveloped and nebulous form, based on one analysis of enneagram and MBTI type correlations, 5w4, 4w5, 1w2 may best fit INFJ and 5w4, 4w5, 8w7 may best fit INTJ. This is a large part of why I consider 5w4 as more likely for myself than the E1, and perhaps the E9, and consider 4w5 as a possible primary type. I don't consider this to be especially strong reasoning, but again, it does not seem especially bad in the circumstances either. I think there is a danger of others caring and spending more time on my enneagram type than myself: it doesn't especially bother me anymore, and is unlikely to do so again with the enneagram in its current form. I don't have a big problem with others speculating on my type for their own ends however.
    Yeah, the whole enneagram thing seems somewhat nebulous although I can still type people (in somewhat counter-intuitive and very non-stereotypical ways) if I make a few assumptions. I wouldn't even bother using MBTI though since it's just such a bad system IMO. I've gotten basically all the types while being completely honest just based on what was true in the moment (e.g. one day I'd prefer to go to a party and another to read a book, because that's what many normal people who don't try to act out typology stereotypes are like, although there is also the odd person who just hates books or parties without typology stereotypes. In MBTI my extravert/introvert score tended to hover around 10% either direction due to their conception of extraverts as people who just have to be social all the time or else they'll have a nervous breakdown due to not having someone else around them, but introverts as recluses who need to spend all of their time aloooooone except for when they come out on the night of the full moon to hang out with one of their friends, the number of which is countable on one hand and likely doesn't even use all the fingers).

    Also, yeah, you could be a 1 core likely as well, especially if you're actually Sp-first because Sp 5 is always described as being sort of completely reclusive (So and Sx 5 much less so).
    Last edited by Pallas; 12-24-2016 at 06:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    So you're back to triple-withdrawn, introverted, and Sp-first? OK... Also, a ton of people seem to equate E9 with Jungian Si, which is about as non-intuitive as it gets IMO. And running around arguing religion doesn't seem super maintain-the-peace to me, it seems like you're deeply concerned about issues of morality. If it's not the core, it basically just sort of filters the core. I found a note in an old journal I wrote years ago where it appears my mom had people in my family do enneagram tests or something and tried to class me as E8 core for reasons explained afterwards, and I complained that I didn't want control all the time, I just didn't want to be controlled and I'm only going to fight back if you try. In retrospect, that sounds more or less like a non-core 8 to me if you use tritypes.

    So am I. It's usually misleading when people do that as well. A lot of the people who use these systems seem to want to use them to avoid Real World Experience as well as to over-simplify people rather than for any either self-improvement or science-y reasons (which are the good reasons to use these because you're not going to get that kind of information without at least a little conscious analysis and systematization). I've always said that the best way to understand human psychology is definitely not to study psychology, but literature if anything, and of course you need to, you know, actually interact with people. The human mind seems like a microcosm for everything else, and I think that's really at that needs to be said regarding people's various attempts to study and reasons for studying it.
    For me, my understanding of me being more likely to be E9 rather than E1 is that while I may be active in speaking out when something or someone disturbs my inner calm, e.g. by implying that they believe I am going to be tortured in the afterlife or for example, by stating that being willing to kill your child because god told you to is a noble thing...I consider myself primarily an insular person, i.e. a natural introvert. I do like things to be have some semblance of order, or at least, I like to have a general understanding (by things, I don't especially mean in the material world), but I don't tend to interfere unless others engage me or cause me some offence in a manner I just mentioned. This does not mean however that I cannot be neurotically temperamental.

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    @Subteigh you're definitely not 5w4. Way too much morality, nitpicking and consistency -there's 1 somewhere (as a wing or core).

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    @darya when I self-typed as LII, I would have described my "moralising" as good common sense , so I am wary of the danger of certain behaviours being framed by a current narrative (whether by the person in question or by external perceivers). I think your observation is perfectly valid however, regardless of whether or not my current or future self would agree with it.

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    I have heard the whole spiel that being a J contradicts E5. That is rare compared to being an F means one can't be an E5.

    The more common consensus is 5 is consistent with INTx/IxTx. 5 is a common typing for INTxs indeed, but it's not a one-size fits all. Indeed, they'd look like your typical INTx, but 9s and 6s are also possible/in the running. 4w5s are rarer, but are statistically possible after these types, especially with a strong 5 wing.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with the judgers and feelers can't be 5s period, and it boils down to if one relates to the core motivation of the type. 5 is pretty much an extreme introvert and it comes down to how someone deals with their anxiety. An F can be a 5 if they are extreme on the withdrawn scale and use information hoarding as a coping mechanism. Some people may even lead with an extroverted function but be more or less withdrawn. I think extroverted 5s are rare but possible, because people can be social introverts and cognitive extroverts, and visa versa.

    Any socio/MBTI/Jungian type is technically possible with any enneagram type. Of course, there are correlation's with statistics, there are rarer combos but something should not be ruled out as impossible if personality patterns fit. INxj/xII 5 isn't even a weird combo compared to some others I've stumbled across.
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    Reading back through this thread with posts over several years, and the threads I linked above only reminds me there are about 4-6 enneagram types with specific wings I could see describe me. I think it depends on whatever my current self-perception I see at the time. I don't think it's a great system. There's no consistency and no real logic to it at all. Maybe it is conceited to regard myself as several of the types or maybe this is a great deal of the reason why tritypes and similar came about. Honestly, I'd prefer not to label myself within a typology I see as fundamentally problematic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Why do you consider yourself a 5w4?
    I reckon that I'm more in my head and more independent than a 4w5 might be, and perhaps more aesthetically-inclined and more wishy-washy than a 5w6.

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    I know I'm a 5w4 and an INTj, and to be honest I don't know how someone could be an INTj or ENTp without seeing resemblances in 4. Most INTps that call themselves INTp 5w4 aren't INTps. They are just going off of what this forum says that INTps are.
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    For some reason the people here think that INTjs are robots or some stupid shit, in which case mentally they are probably more fluid then the majority of the other types. Idiosyncratic is the best word to describe an Alpha NT. We analyze , not systematize. We sort of have "x-ray vision" as Gulenko calls it. We see things for what they really are, we see through the stereotypes. Anyone that thinks that INTjs are systematizing, rule creating type of people need to review their socionics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    I know I'm a 5w4 and an INTj, and to be honest I don't know how someone could be an INTj or ENTp without seeing resemblances in 4.
    This is new interesting stuff. I know that you have talked about 5w4s in the past, for example on SG's forum, but I had missed that you was so sure that you are a 5w4 yourself. Since it is a proven fact that you are not an INTj (V.I., body type, IP (or maybe EP) temperament, etc.), it has now become even more likely that you are actually an INTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Most INTps that call themselves INTp 5w4 aren't INTps.
    Every person I know of that calls him- or herself both INTp and 5w4 are also right about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    For some reason the people here think that INTjs are robots or some stupid shit, in which case mentally they are probably more fluid then the majority of the other types.
    They are not as robotic as ISTjs. The INTjs often identify with their creative and are good at using it. But every INTj has an IJ temperament.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Idiosyncratic is the best word to describe an Alpha NT. We analyze , not systematize.
    Exactly. And that's why an INTj analyst is not a synthezising 5w4 but instead an analyzing 5w6 (if not a 1).

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    We sort of have "x-ray vision" as Gulenko calls it. We see things for what they really are, we see through the stereotypes.
    But this is absolutely false to say about INTjs. They are known for not seeing things as they really are -- that is the sad nature of leading with creative . The bolded part is a very accurate description of the objective INTps however.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Anyone that thinks that INTjs are systematizing, rule creating type of people need to review their socionics.
    Anyone who thinks that INTjs are not the most theoretical and the most systems building of all the types is an idiot. It's all in the socionics material. Everyone with some knowledge agrees that INTjs create theoretical models (often with very little connection to objective reality). And the INTjs want to implement their theoretical models/systems, that's why they are usually rather practically minded too.
    Last edited by Phaedrus; 07-31-2008 at 07:53 AM.

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    Phaedrus, I am glad that the filth that you try to pass for truth is on the non-Socionics subforum where it belongs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitta
    For some reason the people here think that INTjs are robots or some stupid shit, in which case mentally they are probably more fluid then the majority of the other types. Idiosyncratic is the best word to describe an Alpha NT. We analyze , not systematize. We sort of have "x-ray vision" as Gulenko calls it. We see things for what they really are, we see through the stereotypes. Anyone that thinks that INTjs are systematizing, rule creating type of people need to review their socionics.
    I agree. Thank you. Very well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    I could see it. An INTJ could concievably have a 5 fixation (over analyzing, over objectifying, etc. etc.). I don't see why can't fixate on identity issues as well. I've read of 5w4s being called "perfectionists" of their craft to perfectly express their identity, and I've also heard of perfectionism assocated with rational temperament, so it could work.

    Besides, in many cases Enneagram experts agree that a type can have both wings, the idea that each type inherently has touches of both wings in it. So needless to say the idea is not without merit.
    This is interesting, but not exactly reassuring . (Seems a little imprecise).

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    I could see it. An INTJ could concievably have a 5 fixation (over analyzing, over objectifying, etc. etc.). I don't see why can't fixate on identity issues as well. I've read of 5w4s being called "perfectionists" of their craft to perfectly express their identity, and I've also heard of perfectionism assocated with rational temperament, so it could work.

    Besides, in many cases Enneagram experts agree that a type can have both wings, the idea that each type inherently has touches of both wings in it. So needless to say the idea is not without merit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Bump
    what do you type as now @Subteigh
    My last position was "5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So (in that order, if you wish to limit to one)" - I don't think I've changed my opinion since then, other than not considering the enneagram as reliable for describing myself.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1134278

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    None of these are set in stone, so feel free to negotiate with and/or fight me here. I simplify my typings a lot to get rid of what I think is redundant information (which I'll explain if you like but it's probably a bit unorthodox). If you want to be typed you can also ask me and I'll edit this. I'll edit it anyways as I type more people. Almost everyone on a typology forum has a 4 and is contraflow, what a surprise

    Alioth - ILE 648 Sp/Sx
    Bled - SEE 748 Sx/So
    Bullets - ILI 487 Sx/So
    Director Abbie - ESE 164 Sx/So
    Ghost - SEI 468 Sp/Sx
    Gypsy - ESI 487 So/Sx
    L25 - ILE 684 Sp/Sx
    Maritsa - SEE 824 So/Sx
    Satan - SLI 853 Sx/Sp
    SisOfNight - IEI 459 So/Sx
    Spider - ILI 863 So/Sx
    Subteigh - EII 541 So/Sp
    totalize - LIE 852 Sx/So
    troubador - EII 459 So/Sp

    My self-typing is not on here yet because I still want to see what some people here have to say without it being a reaction to my self-typing. People will already consider a lot of these impossible but unless there's a good argument I don't know, I don't see any combination as impossible. Internal strife is part of human nature, as unglamorous-sounding as that is.
    I have been thinking recently that if I am a 5 that Sp-leading might be too inward-looking and non-people focused, "even" for me, and thus So/Sp may be better. I have also thought that So>Sp for any other enneagram type I consider for myself is unlikely, because all other So-leading descriptions I believe are too explicitly people-focused compared to how I am. 1>9 (as my primary type or in my tritype) may indeed fit better, and some mild form/aspect of 4 may also cover me. I find the whole enneagram typing process rather tediously impossible however.
    If you're really interested, you may wish to read some older thoughts on possible enneagram types: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...elf-reflection

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