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Thread: Firefly and Serenity

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    Default Firefly and Serenity

    Mal - XSI
    Zoe - not sure
    Wash - not sure
    Kaylee - Alpha SF
    Jayne - SLE
    Inara - IEI maybe
    Book - Delta ST (def Delta)
    Simon - LII
    River - not sure - intuitive introvert, prob Ti valuing
    Operative - maybe LSI (if not, a different Beta)
    Saffron - XEI

    The Alliance - Beta
    The Resistance - Gamma/Delta

    Overall tone of show: Gamma (maybe)
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-18-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: edited per changes in my opinions since thread was re-opened

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    Kaylee: LSE

    I honestly doubt that Inara has an Fe PoLR though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Kaylee: LSE

    I honestly doubt that Inara has an Fe PoLR though.
    Kaylee an ESTj? I'm afraid I can't see it. Why do you say that?
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    Kaylee an ESTj? I'm afraid I can't see it. Why do you say that?
    Strong awareness of physical mechanical processes and problem-solving (Te + Si) plus an EJ temperament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Strong awareness of physical mechanical processes and problem-solving (Te + Si) plus an EJ temperament.
    See, all that's coming to my mind is her savouring that strawberry in Serenity. A pure Si + Fe moment (if exaggerated).
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    See, all that's coming to my mind is her savouring that strawberry in Serenity. A pure Si + Fe moment (if exaggerated).
    If all that is coming to your mind about her is that moment, then you need to watch the show for more clear signs of her being an LSE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    If all that is coming to your mind about her is that moment, then you need to watch the show for more clear signs of her being an LSE.
    Of course that's not the only thing that has come to mind. But then again, you haven't provided a single example to back up your claim.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    Of course that's not the only thing that has come to mind. But then again, you haven't provided a single example to back up your claim.
    Watch how she operates in the engine room. Listen to how she talks to the nobles in Shindig.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Watch how she operates in the engine room. Listen to how she talks to the nobles in Shindig.
    Can't recall the Shindig thing, but as for her status as a mechanic... it could be that's a legitimate indicator of type, but I would argue it's more of a flaw in the character design itself. I forget what the techinical term is for that kind of oxymoronic presentation, but it amounts to, "let's make the whimsical bubble-head an ace mechanic to play with people's preconceived notions and be credited for pushing boundaries."

    While this is about the character, the actress herself is in no way an LSE, and that's a big deal as no matter how good the actor, they still transfer their personality to the part.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    That is a plausible explanation. What do you propose then for her type? ESE? I could also see Simon as an LII. There is a sort of -role awkwardness in many of his mannerisms and social interactions. That would also make Jayne his supervisor, which would actually seem more likely than conflictor. Simon as Mal's conflictor is far more frequent of an occurrence and the show likes to draw similarities between the two despite their almost complete differences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    That is a plausible explanation. What do you propose then for her type? ESE? I could also see Simon as an LII. There is a sort of -role awkwardness in many of his mannerisms and social interactions. That would also make Jayne his supervisor, which would actually seem more likely than conflictor. Simon as Mal's conflictor is far more frequent of an occurrence and the show likes to draw similarities between the two despite their almost complete differences.
    Not too sure, to be honest. Alpha SF seems likely to me, but I don't know if I could back that up very well.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    I almost put "EII or LII" in that first post for Simon. I could easily be swayed to LII.

    As for Kaylee, part of the confusing part is that she is so warm. Outwardly affectionate, warm, says comforting/caring things to others... it would be hard for me to see her as LSE because of this. eta: because it seems to come so naturally and easily to her. She seems to be on the look-out for who's feeling bad when so she can say something cheery to make the mood less intense or serious or heavy.

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    Then I retract my LSE type for Kaylee. But I definitely see an EJ temperament and creative , in which case ESE would thereby be the most likely type for her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Then I retract my LSE type for Kaylee.But I definitely see an EJ temperament and creative , in which case ESE would thereby be the most likely type for her.
    That easily???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That easily???
    I decided to rewatch Firefly for some simple signs that force my hand talked about (apart from strawberries), and yes, there is a + + EJ temperament disposition in her. The Te elements that I saw, may perhaps be more of a role-element, plus an instinctive mechanical know-how that may not come so much from Te as it does from in general. Furthermore, she treats Serenity as living thing with its own set of dynamic .
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    What about Zoe? I can definitely see Jayne as an SLE, but Zoe right off the hop seems more ESI to me...
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Wash seems more IEE, so I kind of imagined Zoe as SLI.
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    The more I think about it, the more I think of Simon as a better fit with LII.

    In regards to Zoe, how do you interpret this scene (beginning at 5:10)


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    Great scene!

    I think it's a clear interaction between an ethical and logical type. Mal is operating on practicals, especially with regards to dumping the payload. Zoe understands this, but still wants to give the ethical side of things a good airing. How this translates to Socionics, once again I don't know for sure, but I would bet Fi is involved.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    the way I was interpretting it is that Mal is focused on ethics. He cares about his crew, which is his family, who he is extremely loyal to. He does care about people in general and he did shoot that guy to spare him the suffering of what the reavers would have done to him... and his actions were not without sympathy. However, from his point of view, he's looking out for "his people" who he will make all manner of sacrifice for, but not for someone he doesn't know who isn't one of his people and isn't in his family. His people/family needs the money from the raid because Mal knows that down the line they're going to have a harder and harder time getting paid, especially hauling Simon and River around. In his mind they can't afford to not get that money. I see Mal's take as Gamma Fi and consistent with Gamma quadra values, as I'm thinking of them at present.

    Zoe however was noticibly bothered by this... she also views the rest of them as family and is extremely loyal to the lot of them and will perform all manner of sacrifice for them. And she can't logically disagree with any particular point of Mal's actions. She knows he's "right" and they needed the money. But the guy was begging to be brought along, and they chose the money over him, a human being... For some reason I see Zoe's reaction as that of an Fe valuer. This is weak. But anyway. This doesn't say much else about her. I also just see Se/Ni valuing. But don't know how to explain it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    Great scene!

    I think it's a clear interaction between an ethical and logical type. Mal is operating on practicals, especially with regards to dumping the payload. Zoe understands this, but still wants to give the ethical side of things a good airing. How this translates to Socionics, once again I don't know for sure, but I would bet Fi is involved.
    Is Mal not an SEE? He seems to be a clear Han Solo (another SEE).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Is Mal not an SEE? He seems to be a clear Han Solo (another SEE).
    Do you share Loki's view, then?

    I agree he cares about his crew, but if I recall correctly, he also has no problem with putting them in the midst of danger. And is his shunning of Simon and River Fi-derived, or based on the logical merits of spending resources on people who are threatening his self-interest? Note that he only keeps (or appears to) Simon around as a doctor. Fi-exclusion, or Te-necessity?
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    I agree he cares about his crew, but if I recall correctly, he also has no problem with putting them in the midst of danger. And is his shunning of Simon and River Fi-derived, or based on the logical merits of spending resources on people who are threatening his self-interest? Note that he only keeps (or appears to) Simon around as a doctor. Fi-exclusion, or Te-necessity?
    I think he has some issues with Simon to say the least, and has a soft spot for River, actually sort of for Simon as well because he's so "green." But he 'shuns' them because they're not in his "family" group. He is not as loyal to them as he is to the others who he has been with far longer and knows much better. So I would see it more as "Fi-exclusion"... but SEE also values Te... which makes sense with the practical purposes part of it. I see part of the tendency to get in risky situations just as he's a somewhat impulsive risk taker. Sometimes he acts before he thinks.

    I think that a lot of his actions involve facing the "harsh reality" of situations and dealing with them... there usually isn't a perfect way to deal with them. The point is he's a 'looks out for "me and mine"' sort and Simon and River aren't quite in that category... they're only about half way in, and at least at the beginning of Serenity he could still easily be rid of them... as long as he doesn't feel (or can deny he feels) much of a connection with them.

    For some reason, although his behavior isn't consistent per se, his ethics do seem pretty consistent to me.

    What type would you see him as FMH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What type would you see him as FMH?
    Logical extrovert at a superficial glance. Though I think you're making a good case for an ethical type. "Me and mine" is a classic quote for him. Maybe SEE? Unfortunately, I've never developed a feel for SEEs.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think he has some issues with Simon to say the least, and has a soft spot for River, actually sort of for Simon as well because he's so "green." But he 'shuns' them because they're not in his "family" group. He is not as loyal to them as he is to the others who he has been with far longer and knows much better. So I would see it more as "Fi-exclusion"... but SEE also values Te... which makes sense with the practical purposes part of it. I see part of the tendency to get in risky situations just as he's a somewhat impulsive risk taker. Sometimes he acts before he thinks.

    I think that a lot of his actions involve facing the "harsh reality" of situations and dealing with them... there usually isn't a perfect way to deal with them. The point is he's a 'looks out for "me and mine"' sort and Simon and River aren't quite in that category... they're only about half way in, and at least at the beginning of Serenity he could still easily be rid of them... as long as he doesn't feel (or can deny he feels) much of a connection with them.

    For some reason, although his behavior isn't consistent per se, his ethics do seem pretty consistent to me.

    What type would you see him as FMH?
    Part of the problem with Simon and River is that they are outside of Mal's world which represents a barrier of sorts he has to overcome. They were from the heartlands of the Alliance and were mostly Alliance supporters. They are rich upper-class and Mal is a rural outsider and Independent. Furthermore, I do not think that Mal fully trusts them because he is not sure if they are there of their own choice. Everyone else is part of the crew because of their own choice, but Simon and River are primarily there because they are on the run, so this keeps Mal from being able to completely think of them as family as opposed to temporary guests. Simon and Mal have a great deal of mutual respect and a certain amount of attachment to each other, but they each have their conflicts of interest that cause them to butt heads. Simon's priority has been River's safety whereas for Mal it is self-preservation and that of the crew.
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    Mal: SEE-Se, 6w7 so/sp
    Inara: IEE-Fi, 2w1 sx/so
    River: ILI-Ni, 5w6 sp/sx
    Simon: LII-Ne, 6w5 sp/so
    Kaylee: ESE-Si, 7w6 sx/sp
    Zoe: SLE-Ti, 6w5 sp/so
    Wash: IEI-Fe, 9w1 sx/so
    Jayne: SLE-Se, 8w7 sp/sx
    Book: EII-Fi, 2w1 so/sx

    Wash and Zoe, and Kaylee and Simon, are all clearly made for each other. Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.
    I agree with this (although I probably wouldn't say "never will" work out). I would also probably say that they're both to some extent "unavailable," particularly Inara.

    I edited my opening post since my opinions have changed about these since the last time I posted in this thread.

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    One of the best shows ever made, in my opinion. I had formed some opinions on the sociotypes, but that was a while ago and my understanding and typing ability has improved since then. Let's see...

    Malcolm: LSE. A very pragmatic guy, and the sort of "everyman" that LSEs do so well, albeit a wounded everyman. He's generally pretty easy-going, but when pushed his Demonstrative Se comes out (e.g. the scene where he tells Jayne to "walk away from this table"). Also, I think if he were an Se type, he would get along with Jayne better, as opposed to the uneasy truce that they normally seem to have. But you don't get a better example of nice, practical Te than that scene where Mal just walks onto the ship and shoots the guy holding River hostage, without even breaking stride.

    Inara: I used to think she was SEI or IEI, but now I actually think ESI might be the best typing for her. She's very self-controlled and deliberate in her actions, suggesting an IJ type. She's very focused on projecting a perfect image, and wielding the power of her sexuality for her own ends, both of which suggest Se. And her whole job is based on forming relationships with her clients (not just sex), so Fi makes sense. Also, the whole "moth and flame" aspect of Semi-Duality works for her and Mal.

    River: I think ILI or IEI make sense -- Ni is the most obvious element. I kind of want her to be IEI, because her relationship with Jayne is hilarious enough to be Beta-style Duality.

    Simon: LII. I've argued else where for this, it seems fairly apparent.
    Kaylee: ESE. I think the arguments in favour of ESE in this thread are sufficient for now.

    Zoe: I had previously typed her as LSI, but with what I know now SLI might make sense. I might peg her as N-SLI, the same as Kimball Cho on "the Mentalist", or Joe Friday from "Dragnet". This would make it likely that Mal is D-LSE -- the best possible Mirror relationship, and a common subtype for leaders.

    Wash: I had previously typed him as EIE, but that was mainly because I had typed Zoe as LSI. IEE does make a lot more sense.

    Jayne: SLE. His Supervision of Simon is quite obvious. I keep thinking of that scene where he and Simon meet in a doorway, and Jayne just keeps going and plows Simon aside. Base Se vs. Vulnerable Se.

    Book: I honestly have no idea. Introverted, certainly. EII is an interesting suggestion. The problem is that he's so mysterious, you're never sure what his real personality is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Wash and Zoe, and Kaylee and Simon, are all clearly made for each other. Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.
    I may not agree with all your typings, but I do agree with this.

    Edit: Addendum: I would say that the overall tone of the show is Delta/Alpha.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Mal: ESTj
    Jayne: ESTp
    River: INTp
    Simon: INTj
    Kaylee: ESFj
    Book: INFj
    Inara: ISFj
    Wash: ENFj
    Zoe: ISTj

    All in.

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    Is Mal not an SEE? He seems to be a clear Han Solo (another SEE).
    There's no way Harrison Ford is an ESFp, so typing Solo as ESFp is highly dubious and so is using him as a benchmark for ESFphood.

    Ford is most likely an ISTp, in which case equating him to Fillion makes a good case for a delta ST typing.

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    You can't type characters based on the actors that portray them. All the actor is doing is reading lines from a script and trying to make them real. It's the character's thoughts, words and actions that you can type. Which shouldn't be very difficult -- it just means that VI is out for fictional characters.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    If a character doesn't match the type of it's actor, it is at best a poor quality representation of the type. That is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Mal: ESTj
    Jayne: ESTp
    River: INTp
    Simon: INTj
    Kaylee: ESFj
    Book: INFj
    Inara: ISFj
    Wash: ENFj
    Zoe: ISTj

    All in.
    For me, one of the biggest arguments in favour of the SLI/IEE typing for Zoe and Wash is that they both get along much better with Mal than with Jayne. In fact, Mal, Zoe, and Wash kind of form the "core" of the crew. It would make sense if they were members of Mal's quadra, not Jayne's.

    LSI/EIE is still my backup typing, though.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    @Krig:

    There's no way Mal is a D-subtype, and I seriously doubt him to be a Te-base. The man is, by his own admission, completely directionless. A leaf in the wind. He, further, doesn't really hate Jayne and neither do the rest the crew (sans Simon).

    He's also not a terribly practical man, and he feels very bound to his crew; in a stronger way than a Te-Ego would be. Te-egos want to connect with people (Fi Suggestive), but their Te need for efficiency and practicality gets in the way. Mal is known for putting the welfare of his crew above practical considerations, and is aware of when their limits are stretched ("You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?"). Not to mention he spared Jayne at the last minute, simply because Jayne showed shame for what he'd done. I think a Te-base (especially one who didn't like or appreciate Jayne) would have left him in that airlock and left, or just thrown him out rather than kill him.

    Wash and Zoe being in the same quadra as Jayne makes perfect sense, given that they are just about the people most favorable to Jayne on Serenity (well, aside from Kaylee, who just loves everyone). They don't consider him an epic dumbass like Simon, and they aren't even wary of him like Mal and Inara. Zoe seems to like him, and Wash just finds mocking him amusing. Further, Wash can't really be anything but an valuer given that he does practically nothing but try to lighten the mood. Example:

    Mal: Define "interesting."
    Wash: "Oh God, oh God we're all gonna die"?
    And Zoe loves that shit (Fe-suggestive).

    I seriously doubt Inara's any kind of Sensory type. She's a very long-term planner, and gives off a sort of a "mystical mentor" vibe.
    Last edited by Aleksei; 10-25-2010 at 08:09 PM.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  35. #35
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    There's no way Mal is a D-subtype, and I seriously doubt him to be a Te-base. The man is, by his own admission, completely directionless. A leaf in the wind. He, further, doesn't really hate Jayne and neither do the rest the crew -- they just don't like him. Their problem with him is more along the lines of him being stupid (NTR) and a rude self-serving asshole (Fi/Fe conflict).
    You're right, it's possible that Mal is a C-subtype. I'm not settled on the subtypes just yet.

    [Edit: I checked my master list, and I see that I previously had Mal down as a C-LSE. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I said he was D-LSE -- a momentary lapse, I suppose. ]

    People don't normally hate members of the opposite Quadra, particularly if they share a club. Often Contrary and Quasi-Identical types can get along fairly well, especially if they focus on work.

    A significant part of the crew's discomfort with Jayne is that he's too aggressive. In my opinion there is also a significant Si/Se conflict, as well as the Fi/Fe one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    He's also not a terribly practical man, and he feels very bound to his crew; in a stronger way than a Te-Ego would be. Te-egos want to connect with people (Fi Suggestive), but their Te need for efficiency and practicality gets in the way. Mal is known for putting the welfare of his crew above practical considerations, and is aware of when their limits are stretched ("You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?"). Not to mention he spared Jayne at the last minute, simply because Jayne showed shame for what he'd done. I think a Te-base (especially one who didn't like or appreciate Jayne) would have left him in that airlock and left, or just thrown him out rather than kill him.
    What you're seeing there is classic Caregiver behaviour. LSEs can't open up emotionally very well, but they can make up for it by taking care of people's physical needs. Mal never talks about his feelings, but in LSE fashion he shows that he cares by doing practical things to take care of his loved ones. The "You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?" line shows this typical concern for others' physical welfare, coupled with a strong ability to assess others' capabilities in a practical Te sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I do agree that Zoe is his mirror, but given that I find it doubtful for him to be LSE, it's probably more plausible that Zoe is ESI. Which makes sense -- she doesn't really appear to be independent or self-serving enough for Beta ST. Given that, Wash is probably her kindred (EII).
    Zoe displays emotion less than Mal does (except when she's alone with Wash). She seems pretty obviously Fe-PoLR to me, or at least 1-d Fe.

    Also, I don't see how anyone could type Wash as an Introvert. Other than Kaylee he's the most emotionally extraverted character on the show!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I seriously doubt she's any kind of Sensory type. She's a very long-term planner, and gives off a sort of a "mystical mentor" vibe.
    I'm not as sure of Inara's type as I am of the others. I considered IEI for a while, but the intertype relations didn't make sense. I could see someone making the case that she's EII, but for now I think ESI makes more sense.

    You'll note, she's not so much a mystical mentor, as she is a relational mentor. She doesn't talk about destiny and the future and the spiritual significance of things, she talks about people and relationships.

    Now that I think of it, she could be an Ni-Harmonizing subtype. That would explain the calm, serene energy she has. It would also jive well with Mal being a Creative subtype, as I speculated above. Hmm.
    Last edited by Krig the Viking; 10-25-2010 at 08:01 PM.
    Quaero Veritas.

  36. #36
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    A significant part of the crew's discomfort with Jayne is that he's too aggressive. In my opinion there is also a significant Si/Se conflict, as well as the Fi/Fe one.
    I don't see Si/Se conflict at all, and now that I think of it the only ones with Fi issues regarding him are Mal and Inara (both of whom are wary of him). As I mentioned in my last post (post-edit -- I actually sorta switched that around on you; my apologies), Zoe and Wash have no issue with Jayne.

    What you're seeing there is classic Caregiver behaviour. LSEs can't open up emotionally very well, but they can make up for it by taking care of people's physical needs. Mal never talks about his feelings, but in LSE fashion he shows that he cares by doing practical things to take care of his loved ones. The "You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?" line shows this typical concern for others' physical welfare, coupled with a strong ability to assess others' capabilities in a practical Te sense.
    But he does understand others' feelings, and acts accordingly. Like in Heart of Gold, where he pretended to have fallen asleep rather than slept with Inara's hooker friend because he knew it'd hurt Inara's feelings. he also has an "honor before reason" ethos very typical of Se-Fi, as shown in Shindig -- "I'll protect my lady's honor, and kick the ass of anyone who insults her." Very SEE.

    I've had similar debates on MBTI forums (in MBTI, Mal is an ENTP). The fact is that Nathan Fillon is LSE and is incapable of properly portraying characters that aren't Te-base. So Mal comes off as LSE himself.

    Zoe displays emotion less than Mal does (except when she's alone with Wash). She seems pretty obviously Fe-PoLR to me, or at least 1-d Fe.
    Yeah, I was wrong about ESI (and right originally).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  37. #37
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    I would mention with Jayne that Mal's conflict with him is that he can't be trusted (necessarily). Mal first "acquired" Jayne by getting him to betray the team he was working with (a task which was all too easy). Jayne has a history of doing the same with other "teams" (for instance in the episode "Jaynestown" where it's revealed that Jayne jettisoned the payload *and his partner* in a previous heist to save his own ass). Anyway not that knowing that matters so much as Mal has a good read on Jayne's character and knows this is the sort of person he is.

    Mal took Jayne on because he's valuable and he can get stuff done for Mal (he's an excellent physical presence and he knows his weapons) but Mal knows it's a risk because he knows that Jayne's sense of self-preservation outweighs everything. So with the episode where Jayne tried to turn River and Simon over to the Alliance, Mal was extremely severe because it was the only way he thought he could get it through to Jayne that betrayal would not be tolerated. (I'm beginning to heed FMH's arguments that Mal is not an ethical type.)

    I would also note that most people aren't going to get on well with Jayne... he's aggressive, almost only gives a damn about himself (I say that because I think there is a small buried under-expressed part of Jayne that really does care that he would prefer to never let anyone, or perhaps even himself, see), and can't necessarily be trusted. I mean most people are going to wisely be wary of such a person. He's an asset only as long as there's something in it for him, who's always on the look out for a better deal (he's greedy).

    I had thought supervision with Mal as ESI and Jayne as SLE worked for their relationship earlier, but I may be changing my mind (Mal could be LSI and I don't see a problem with the relationship from that view). I probably will never see Mal as Si valuing. He has a very harsh character and he deals in absolutes (not the dual of EII).

    It could be argued that Mal deals with Jayne a lot better than most people would. It's also significant that over time Mal seems to gain at least some of Jayne's loyalty (Mal's affect on him seems to be more positive than not in terms of "socializing" him). I of course would disagree with threatening to kill him, but that's only because I find it a little disturbing that had Jayne not broke a little in that scene Mal very possibly might have actually killed him (in other words it wasn't an empty threat).
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-25-2010 at 11:21 PM.

  38. #38
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Mal's no introvert.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  39. #39
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    The fact is that Nathan Fillon is LSE and is incapable of properly portraying characters that aren't Te-base. So Mal comes off as LSE himself.
    This goes for just about every actor. When the character is typed different from the actor, the result is just some untypable garble. The VI doesn't work, the body language is different from what it's supposed to be, etc. So if you're assuming the character is typable in the first place, you just have to assume the actor and character are the same type.

    So that's what I use as a personal policy, either:
    - character and actor are the same type
    or,
    - character is an untypable mess

  40. #40
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    That's why I don't use VI or body language to type fictional characters (well, I don't use VI period as I'm not familiar enough with it, but the point is that you can't use it on fictional characters, so don't).

    I'd say only bad actors are incapable of playing other types though. A measure of a good actor is the range of characters he/she can play.
    Last edited by Aleksei; 10-26-2010 at 03:05 PM.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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