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Thread: Peopl who think I'm ILE

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Peopl who think I'm ILE

    Why?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    Well I just like you, and everyone thinks I'm SEI, so why not?!

    <3
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Well I just like you, and everyone thinks I'm SEI, so why not?!

    <3
    Awww, thanks.


    Maria I don't think everyone does, I just want people who do to step up to the plate instead of just floating by on the status quo; ie, the type I have always been seen as.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    because when they think of an ILE they see someone with similar hair, a little out of it, etc. it's a wrong stereotype imo. possible though.
    Really? What makes you think that's their reason for thinking that?
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    i think you are a beta nf too. I have for a long time. people who think you are ILE probably don't know much about identifying the socionic types of individuals based on small amounts of evidence presented in random and confusing fashion.

    But i'm not one of them.

    au revoir
    asd

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Well I just like you, and everyone thinks I'm SEI, so why not?!

    <3
    lol @ this rationale

    You're a true SEI, bee.

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    at this point, why does it even matter?

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    at this point, why does it even matter?
    Because I am petty and persistent by nature, and am relentless in my search for my "self" and how others perceive me
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Because I am petty and persistent by nature, and am relentless in my search for my "self" and how others perceive me
    or you just want attention

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Maybe

    Or maybe I just want help.

    Or maybe a combination of the two.

    Or maybe I just feel like posting something and have nothing else.

    Or maybe I want to have an image on the forum and this is how I create it.

    Or maybe I want to piss the hell out of you and other people who tell me to stop.

    Or maybe I just want to fuck with everyone's minds and skew their perception of me so I can be that much more unpredictable.

    Or maybe I just like talking about myself because my ego is massive and I think other people's lives will be made better just by hearing about my life and learning from me.


    Or maybe it's way simpler than any of those things
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  11. #11
    Creepy-Diana

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  12. #12
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    All of this bullshit with you changing your type every week is just because you're bored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I've explained my reasons before, back when you thought you were SLE.

    But, I've come to realize my main reason may be because you're manipulative and a con artist, as well as argumentative, and it's something I tend to associate with ILEs whether or not it fits many of the type.
    hey! we're not all like that.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    But, I've come to realize my main reason may be because you're manipulative and a con artist, as well as argumentative, and it's something I tend to associate with ILEs whether or not it fits many of the type.
    Really? I would think that other types would be more likely to have the kind of talents and/or natures that would impel them to that kind of behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    But, I've come to realize my main reason may be because you're manipulative and a con artist, as well as argumentative, and it's something I tend to associate with ILEs whether or not it fits many of the type
    I don't see him as manipulative or a con artist at all. He is somewhat argumentative, but (going on stickam) he always seems to be reacting to peoples' comments/arguments; he doesn't typically light the fire, so to speak, and doesn't exactly seem to enjoy conflict (which some people do).

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I've explained my reasons before, back when you thought you were SLE.

    But, I've come to realize my main reason may be because you're manipulative and a con artist, as well as argumentative, and it's something I tend to associate with ILEs whether or not it fits many of the type.
    lol, you give me too much credit...I am good at covering my ass and getting what I want, but it's a pretty far stretch to call me manipulative OR a con artist. I mean I can be a little manipulative sometimes, but not really.


    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    All of this bullshit with you changing your type every week is just because you're bored.
    That might be one of the causes, but it's certainly not the only reason.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  17. #17
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I don't see him as manipulative or a con artist at all. He is somewhat argumentative, but (going on stickam) he always seems to be reacting to peoples' comments/arguments; he doesn't typically light the fire, so to speak, and doesn't exactly seem to enjoy conflict (which some people do).
    The only time I specifically don't enjoy conflict is when I feel ganged up on, which is what you and Ashton attempt to initiate with me almost every time. That said, I don't always enjoy conflict, per se (I definitely do sometimes), but I certainly don't shy away from it unless, like I said, I feel "ganged up on."

    Nick just wants to make me out to be some kind of pussy or something because he doesn't want me to be Beta It's really not any use trying to belittle me; I see through it easily enough, just like the 6 bullshit.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
    Creepy-Diana

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    What are these other reasons, that actually sound more credible and objective, and why did you state your completely biased and subjective reasons in lieu of these? I'm not really interested in starting another argument, but seriously, are you just trying to defame me or something?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The only time I specifically don't enjoy conflict is when I feel ganged up on, which is what you and Ashton attempt to initiate with me almost every time. That said, I don't always enjoy conflict, per se (I definitely do sometimes), but I certainly don't shy away from it unless, like I said, I feel "ganged up on."

    Nick just wants to make me out to be some kind of pussy or something because he doesn't want me to be Beta It's really not any use trying to belittle me; I see through it easily enough, just like the 6 bullshit.
    Nick is like Ashton's gimp, no matter what Ashton says, Nick will always argue it. If Ashton says it, you can be certain that Nick will argue it.

    The shit with the enneagram is fucking annoying as hell. I think its impossible for someone else to be a 4 in the eyes of Nick. Nick is a special individual, he gets fucked in the ass by a higher power.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Mostly, yeah.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  22. #22
    Creepy-Diana

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    .

  23. #23
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    That's understandable.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  24. #24
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Nick is a special individual, he gets fucked in the ass by a higher power.
    ROFLMAO I DIDNT EVEN SEE THIS BEFORE
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    The only time I specifically don't enjoy conflict is when I feel ganged up on, which is what you and Ashton attempt to initiate with me almost every time. That said, I don't always enjoy conflict, per se (I definitely do sometimes), but I certainly don't shy away from it unless, like I said, I feel "ganged up on."
    Confrontation just doesn't seem natural for you, hence why I said you are reactive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Nick just wants to make me out to be some kind of pussy or something because he doesn't want me to be Beta
    Hasty assumption there. There are plenty of non-betas who are by no means pussies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    It's really not any use trying to belittle me; I see through it easily enough, just like the 6 bullshit.

    Nobody's trying to belittle you lol, stop being insecure. The 6 stuff I mention is legitimate traits that I feel should be called out; whether they offend you or not is of secondary importance to their accuracy. And stop trying to act like you're so perceptive lol. It's clear that peoples' comments about you and your type affect you, so stop playing it down by trying to act like you "see through them" or something lol

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Nick is like Ashton's gimp, no matter what Ashton says, Nick will always argue it. If Ashton says it, you can be certain that Nick will argue it.
    I have argued with you probably more than any other person in stickam, and most of the time end up displaying your convoluted logic, at which point you proceed to escape into some philosophical loophole. The fact that you aren't smart enough to understand the concepts Ashton and I (and so many others) have tried to illustrate doesn't mean there is some tag-team thing going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    The shit with the enneagram is fucking annoying as hell. I think its impossible for someone else to be a 4 in the eyes of Nick. Nick is a special individual, he gets fucked in the ass by a higher power.
    Actually, I see many people as fours: dolphin, glam, starfall, esper, mime, to name a few. Just because you're mad that I don't consider you as unique as you think you are, and call you out on your contrived counter-phobic 6 bullshit, does not mean I don't want people to be 4's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glam
    anyways, to repost something I had deleted, I think a lot of people here confuse ILEs and Beta NFs for each other. why, I don't know. I'm tired of having some random dreamy little blatant NF come in on stickam and hearing the resounding chorus of "ENTp-Ti!!!!"


    FWIW.
    glam is awesome!

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    I admit, for along time I've confused ENTps and ENFjs... Superficially, they share some similar traits--usually a manic energy, a look of studying/analyzing situations and then entering at an opportune moment, a propensity to correct ppl during conversation, looking somewhat theatrical physically/with gestures, und so weiter.

    People often confuse ISFps and ENFps for the same reason--they share some similar traits, superficially. The shy smile, the easy-going appearance, etc.

    I don't believe that you're INFp, Gilly--you'd be a real outlier for that type... That said, I don't know you well enough to say for sure whether you're alpha or beta...

    To me, you've always seemed irrational--I've based that mostly off of your video, in which you talked about pursuing law as a career. In the video, I detected none of the underlying agitation/force (that's how it comes across to me as a Delta)--in this I agree with strrrng--typical of beta types... Perhaps there was a chemical reason for this..?

    Any other questions--I'll try to answer em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I am special. I am unique. I am first on strrrng's list. Booyah baby. <3
    but you're not as special as nick!

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Nick is a special individual, he gets fucked in the ass by a higher power.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    I love Dolphin. But she's still not as special as Nick
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu
    In the video, I detected none of the underlying agitation/force (that's how it comes across to me as a Delta)--in this I agree with strrrng--typical of beta types... Perhaps there was a chemical reason for this..?
    Thank you! This is what I was referring to. No one's trying to belittle you, Gilly. It's not my fault your ego causes you to need to feel like you're intense and whatnot. But it's this attitude Justin is referring to (which is probably the most obvious to deltas, as it is diametrical to them) that I simply don't sense with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Okay, I love you. STOP

    <3
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I admit, for along time I've confused ENTps and ENFjs... Superficially, they share some similar traits--usually a manic energy, a look of studying/analyzing situations and then entering at an opportune moment, a propensity to correct ppl during conversation, looking somewhat theatrical physically/with gestures, und so weiter.

    People often confuse ISFps and ENFps for the same reason--they share some similar traits, superficially. The shy smile, the easy-going appearance, etc.

    I don't believe that you're INFp, Gilly--you'd be a real outlier for that type... That said, I don't know you well enough to say for sure whether you're alpha or beta...

    To me, you've always seemed irrational--I've based that mostly off of your video, in which you talked about pursuing law as a career. In the video, I detected none of the underlying agitation/force (that's how it comes across to me as a Delta)--in this I agree with strrrng--typical of beta types... Perhaps there was a chemical reason for this..?

    Any other questions--I'll try to answer em.

    Perhaps the "underlying agitation/force" you're speaking of is more typical of Ni/Se subtypes? Because I don't think I've really noticed this as a staple characteristic of Betas. I certainly have some IEI friends, Ni and Fe subtypes both, who don't seemed agitated or forceful. Does starfall seem this way to you? Or glam? I certainly wouldn't say so. What about, say, David Bowie, or Steven Jobs for famous EIEs? Ghandi, Garrison Keilor, or Elton John (for IEIs)? (These are as per Rick's typings.) Just trying to clarify whether or not we're talking the same thing here.

    I dunno, I think I would probably fall under Ezra's category of "theory-espouser IEI" Maybe this is what makes me seem less typically "INFp." What makes me seem particularly un-IEI? Do you think social extroversion is apparent? Because I can assure you it's something I've had to learn and hone.


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng
    Thank you! This is what I was referring to. No one's trying to belittle you, Gilly. It's not my fault your ego causes you to need to feel like you're intense and whatnot. But it's this attitude Justin is referring to (which is probably the most obvious to deltas, as it is diametrical to them) that I simply don't sense with you.
    To be honest I'm well aware that I'm not macho or manly or an incredibly intense person externally; I stopped trying to take myself that seriously around people a long time ago because I was loaded with accusations of "ego," "emo," "drama king;" shit like that. I've adopted a light attitude as a survival method, if anything; if I always acted how I felt inside, I probably wouldn't have any friends at all, or a job, or an apartment, or anyone's trust...I've developed something of a non-serious front just as a defense mechanism because I know that if I hand most people the "real me" on a silver platter, I'm not going to get much of anywhere in anything. Real enough for you?

    Maybe I am so/sp instead of so/sx? sx last types are described as having something like lack of intensity or seriousness. Just a thought.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    anyways, to repost something I had deleted, I think a lot of people here confuse ILEs and Beta NFs for each other. why, I don't know. I'm tired of having some random dreamy little blatant NF come in on stickam and hearing the resounding chorus of "ENTp-Ti!!!!"


    FWIW.
    wow. that happens in that direction, too? weird. this would be good to try to figure out socionically.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    OK, sure, I’ll try to clarify.

    Just so that there are no pretences to objectivity here, I’ll note that I’m describing the qualities of particular Betas through my own (ENFp) lens… Other types, I imagine, would perceive these characteristics differently.

    As to Glam and Starfall, I haven’t met them physically, or even seen videos of them, so I can’t speak to these attributes regarding them. (I like them both very much though.

    As to David Bowie, ENFj:



    If you want, go to about 1:50 in this interview, where Bowie talks about terrorists/George Harrison… Here is a good example of a Beta NF turning up the heat in a conversation, (can you imagine what he would’ve said re: the subject if he hadn’t been on this easy-banter TV talk show? I’m betting that Bowie would’ve been even more forceful and categorical.) Also, notice (if you want) how frequently and quickly Bowie’s hands move—and how he uses them to emphasize his conversational points, (3:20 provides a clear example of Bowie using hand gestures for dramatic effect.) Note how he shifts around in his chair quite a bit (around 2:50—a good example of shifting/gestures.) Note also the “punchline” quality of Bowie’s speech, particularly at the end of his sentences. These characteristics are symptomatic of the “underlying agitation/force” of ENFjs to which I’m referring.

    Although these are specific manifestations of “underlying agitation/force,” I’d argue that they’re present throughout the entire interview. (E.g. I can tell that a comfortable conversation between me and David Bowie would probably last about 30 seconds before we both start suspecting each other, haha.)

    As to Elton John, INFp:



    Here the “underlying agitation/force” is more subtle—or at least more laid-back—as I’ve noticed that it often is with INFps (compared with ENFjs, anyway.) Notice again the “punchline” style of dialogue—I would also note that like Bowie’s, John’s comments come across as categorical—e.g. at about 0:50 when talking about how he doesn’t see the point of his art “being in a drawer,” and 1:30, when he talks about how ‘Requiem for the Holocaust’ is a “very powerful piece.” It’s not what he says, it’s how he says it—he says it in a way that comes across as a ‘challenge.’ John poses challenges with facial expressions as well, e.g. 3:45 when noting that he can do a tour “from [his] house.” After saying it, note how he raises his eyebrows at Lauer—almost as if to say, “what do you think of that, huh?” At 4:05 Elton himself notes that he’s very happy because his boyfriend “is willing to challenge [him] and confront [him].” Also, included in the piece, there’s a clip of Elton John going off—in a dramatic way—when confronting some Asian paparazzi.

    Throughout this interview with Elton John, again I note an underlying tension/agitation—and a tendency toward pugnacity/force that is typical of Betas. The above are just specific examples of qualities that I’d say are evident throughout the interview, and underlie the entire conversation (at least on John’s end.)

    As to Steve Jobs and Garrison Keilor—I looked up some videos of them, and I agree with Rick’s typings of them… Both of them exhibit similar characteristics to those elucidated above.

    As to your type, Gilly, in light of this—I have not seen a video of you beyond that one where you talked about law as a potential career. (FWIW, in my estimation, videos are by far the easiest way to type someone accurately, short of actually meeting them and interacting with them.)

    I don’t have the video on hand so I cannot refer to it specifically as I did the videos above, but I’ll write my perceptions, what I remember… You came across as Ne base—someone inclined to speculating, someone inclined to ‘searching’… You came across as laid-back, but also someone who could become easily excitable and outgoing in an instant, (unlike, for example, Elton John, who seems naturally quiet, and to a degree, even brooding... Or David Bowie, who comes across as high-strung.)

    If I remember correctly, you seemed to speak in a stream-of-consciousness style, which is not typical of people with an introverted base function, (not to say that it’s impossible, or discounts an introverted base function—it’s just atypical.) You came across as someone inclined to goof around, i.e. infantile, rather than someone inclined to challenge, i.e. victim. (I am infantile too, lol, so yeah, I’d say that you came across similarly in that way.)

    As to social extraversion—to be honest, I’d have to interact with you, or see a video of you interacting in order to say with any certainty… Regardless, my impression of your type was not based on a perception of your social introversion/extraversion.

    None of this discounts a beta type obviously—I feel like I’ve had too little to go on to make any sort of definitive typing, but yeah, this is what I’ve noticed… And to me, it makes an alpha type (in particular ENTp) seem more likely than a beta type (in particular the NFs.)

    Let me know if I can help with any more questions... I'll do my best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    wow. that happens in that direction, too? weird. this would be good to try to figure out socionically.
    I think ILEs and Beta NFs probably tend to have comparable levels of apparent "extroversion"/sociability/average arousal levels, as well as typically having common interests in things like philosophy, metaphysics, psychology, etc.

    I think the most apparent differences are that ILEs tend to be more nonserious, lighthearted, and openly "childlike," whereas Beta NFs can also be these, perhaps even moreso, but are more prone than ILEs to swing into emotional "doldrum" territory and bouts self-absorption, angst, etc; I think the equivalent of this for ILEs would be more like emotional "monotony," simply feeling unexcited, neutral, or bored. Beta NFs have more apparent high highs and low lows, whereas ILEs (without the stimulation of their dual) mostly tend to modulate between more moderate "happy/cheerful/giddy" and rather ambiguous "whatever/meh" moods.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I think ILEs and Beta NFs probably tend to have comparable levels of apparent "extroversion"/sociability/average arousal levels, as well as typically having common interests in things like philosophy, metaphysics, psychology, etc.

    I think the most apparent differences are that ILEs tend to be more nonserious, lighthearted, and openly "childlike," whereas Beta NFs can also be these, perhaps even moreso, but are more prone than ILEs to swing into emotional "doldrum" territory and bouts self-absorption, angst, etc; I think the equivalent of this for ILEs would be more like emotional "monotony," simply feeling unexcited, neutral, or bored. Beta NFs have more apparent high highs and low lows, whereas ILEs (without the stimulation of their dual) mostly tend to modulate between more moderate "happy/cheerful/giddy" and rather ambiguous "whatever/meh" moods.
    interesting. this also explains why ILE'S and beta NF's are often attracted to one another.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    @Juju:

    I don't really know where to start or go with a direct comparison with these two particular individuals, but as for the "punch line" style of narration, I think that was actually rather apparent in my video if you watch the latter part where I'm talking about my conversation with the guy who was trying to talk me out of being a philosophy major. Maybe not directly type related, but I thought it was interesting that you mentioned it.

    As for my not being confrontational or categorical, heh...I guess you'd have to witness a "me vs. Ashton and Nick" debate. I'm actually highly categorical, and it sometimes frustrates Ashton, allegedly Te dominant, because he seems to think I'm "oversimplifying things," or ignoring nuances; I will listen to what he says, lay down a kind of categorical "challenge," essentially saying "Well, here's what I'm saying, and this is what I think you're saying, and here is why I think you are wrong. What do you have to say for yourself?" and he will attempt to wriggle out of it by introducing new information or taking a roundabout approach to answering my "challenge," which I find very deceptive and frustrating.

    I dunno, I can't say that I identify highly with either Bowie or Elton John (although I like Bowie's music ), but I certainly do with Marilyn Manson and Eminem, who I think are both rather apparent examples of Beta NFs. People who have met me in real life tend to say, when prompted, that I seem more "high strung/energetic" than "laid back" (yes, I ask people about these kinds of things ) so I'm not really sure what to make of your observations there.

    I don't want to put you on the spot or anything because you don't seem like you're willing to make a serious case here but I dunno, that's my take on your observations.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    @Juju:

    I don't really know where to start or go with a direct comparison with these two particular individuals, but as for the "punch line" style of narration, I think that was actually rather apparent in my video if you watch the latter part where I'm talking about my conversation with the guy who was trying to talk me out of being a philosophy major. Maybe not directly type related, but I thought it was interesting that you mentioned it.

    As for my not being confrontational or categorical, heh...I guess you'd have to witness a "me vs. Ashton and Nick" debate. I'm actually highly categorical, and it sometimes frustrates Ashton, allegedly Te dominant, because he seems to think I'm "oversimplifying things," or ignoring nuances; I will listen to what he says, lay down a kind of categorical "challenge," essentially saying "Well, here's what I'm saying, and this is what I think you're saying, and here is why I think you are wrong. What do you have to say for yourself?" and he will attempt to wriggle out of it by introducing new information or taking a roundabout approach to answering my "challenge," which I find very deceptive and frustrating.

    I dunno, I can't say that I identify highly with either Bowie or Elton John (although I like Bowie's music ), but I certainly do with Marilyn Manson and Eminem, who I think are both rather apparent examples of Beta NFs. People who have met me in real life tend to say, when prompted, that I seem more "high strung/energetic" than "laid back" (yes, I ask people about these kinds of things ) so I'm not really sure what to make of your observations there.

    I don't want to put you on the spot or anything because you don't seem like you're willing to make a serious case here but I dunno, that's my take on your observations.
    This might be obvious, but I used Elton John and David Bowie as examples b/c you mentioned them specifically in your above post, and asked about them; (Steve Jobs and Garrison Keilor were the other options.)

    yeah, I'm not going to make a serious case for your type... I don't even have on-hand the video of you that I saw--I'm just going by what I can remember of it, and what I remember of my impressions of it... And yeah, I haven't seen you interact, so all of this is somewhat moot.

    I'm not sure that identifying with certain musicians is the best way to go about finding one's type... In that case, I'd be beta too I like Marilyn Manson, Nirvana, basically beta bands... Delta music--what? James Taylor, lol, no. I like some Fleetwood Mac songs, I guess, and Bob Dylan songs, (he might be alpha, not 100&#37; sure,) but yeah, mostly I'm not into Delta music.

    I agree with you, I would have to see how you interact to make a more informed judgment... Maybe I'll go on stickam sometime and get a better idea.

    P.S. I believe that "punchline" style of speech is type-related... It's something that I notice is typical of Se and Se-valuing types, particularly Betas.

    P.P.S. Can you speak to infantile vs. victim in your own case..?

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    Gilly, how about you elaborate on the similarities you see between you and I?

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    I don't think liking certain music is seriously type related, but would you say that Manson or Eminem, or people like them, are or have been your idols, people you could see yourself as or would like to be? For example, I idolize Manson for his complete "don't give a fuck" style and promotion of controversy surrounding himself, and Eminem for his irreverence, intensity, and vengeful attitude towards those who did him wrong when he was younger.


    As for Vicitm vs. Infantile, well, I can relate more specifically to valuing Se over Si in my dual. I would rather be pushed to do something that be fretted over or cared for; I don't really have an issue with looking after myself, I just need a push or reminder to do it. Being looked after only makes me lazier and more apathetic; I need someone who can get me to take care of myself. I want to see myself as "equal" to my partner in this regard; the only case that would be an exception would be if I was too depressed or down on myself, in which case I need someone who is willing to pick up the slack without making a huge fuss or making me feel guilty about it.

    I don't want someone who is going to try to use their emotions to provoke mine; I already deal with enough internal turbulence that having someone else who is intensely emotional around is only going to cause me undue stress. I DETEST guilt trips; I am hard enough on myself as is, and it seems totally disrespectful when someone assumes that I don't already "feel" my own failures to the point that they have to take my reactions into their own hands.

    Reading over these duality descriptions:
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=250736

    ...I find this quote:

    When The Seeker loses vital tonus and begins neglect his duties, The Mediator 'arranges an emotional episode' for him and by this raises his spirits.
    This REALLY pisses me off. As I've said before, I cannot stand it when people try to cheer me up. I see right through it and feel like they are treating me like a child, as if I can't see what they are up to. I am good at giving practical advice to others about solving problems, and nothing would possibly help me more than to have that reciprocated by someone who is steadfast enough to give me direction and motivate me to work myself out of a rut.

    Also, I identify a lot with this part of the EIE-LSI description:

    The Mentor sometimes lacks will power and is undemanding of others concerning fulfillment of concrete work. He willingly gives people small errands, which many of them forget to fulfill – but not The Inspector! He is demanding of himself and others. He can organize the working process and achieve results. And The Mentor, getting thus inspired by him, can fulfill a huge volume of work in a short time, and so never disappoints his demanding partner.
    Now THIS is what I need: not someone who is going to, in my view, "baby me," or try to cheer me up, pretending like everything will be ok if I will just "be happy," but someone who will EXPECT things of me; I often accuse people having unrealistic expectations of me, and I think it's because it's what I need from my dual People like my Delta parents will say "Well, it would be nice if you could work towards getting good grades and playing sports, and maybe taking up an instrument." I am too literal for that; I see it either as something totally optional and up to me to choose whether I want to do it or not, or something that is an OBLIGATION, a rigid expectation. If people make light requests of me, I am apt to forget them...but if someone assigns me responsibility, and makes it known that it is "up to me" to make something happen, then by GOD it's going to get done.

    I need someone to let me know that what I am doing is important; if I don't know that it's critical or necessary for me to do my work, or if there is what I feel like is an "apathetic" atmosphere, I am just going to slack. But I am a fucking whirlwind when I get going, as the EIE is mentioned to be here. I need someone to push me, someone who is not going to allow the option of failure, and, in the case of failure, not try to comfort me or pretend like it's "ok," (because then I will think that it's ok, and that nothing is wrong ) but someone who will simply shrug and say "I guess you'll just have to do better next time."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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