SLI-SEI Kindred Relations (ISTp & ISFp)

[Slacker]

I have determined that these two types have problems.

ISTp and ISFp do not talk. At all. We've spent three weeks with the in-laws so far, and I bet my husband has said 12 words to my father-in-law the whole time. And my father-in-law is infuriated by my husband's thriftiness (currently the fact that my husband refuses to buy a new lawnmower and will only look at used ones.) But oddly, his verbal complaint is that my husband is *lazy*, not cheap. And he's both, but it seems odd that laziness is getting the complaints when the father-in-law is a serial napper too. They both stay busy for the same amount of time, but my father-in-law spends his time tending to our yard (gardening is his favorite thing in the world) and my husband spends his time running around to garage sales and wherever looking for deals, and then fixing up stuff he buys that's broken and then selling it and earning money. My husbnad doesn't understand my FIL's focus on the yard, and my FIL doesn't understnad my husban'd interest in "junk".

I'm quite fond of both of them but I'm entirely unable to mediate.

For some reason I'm not edit my text, so I apologize for the typos.

[Joy]

I have determined that these two types have problems.

ISTp and ISFp do not talk. At all. We've spent three weeks with the in-laws so far, and I bet my husband has said 12 words to my father-in-law the whole time. And my father-in-law is infuriated by my husband's thriftiness (currently the fact that my husband refuses to buy a new lawnmower and will only look at used ones.) But oddly, his verbal complaint is that my husband is *lazy*, not cheap. And he's both, but it seems odd that laziness is getting the complaints when the father-in-law is a serial napper too. They both stay busy for the same amount of time, but my father-in-law spends his time tending to our yard (gardening is his favorite thing in the world) and my husband spends his time running around to garage sales and wherever looking for deals, and then fixing up stuff he buys that's broken and then selling it and earning money. My husbnad doesn't understand my FIL's focus on the yard, and my FIL doesn't understnad my husban'd interest in "junk".

I'm quite fond of both of them but I'm entirely unable to mediate.

For some reason I'm not edit my text, so I apologize for the typos.

This could be Te vs. Fe.

The SLI wants to be economical, the SEI wants to look good for the neighbors.

[xyz]

What an odd pair.

And you say you can't mediate between the too eh? Hrm, maybe focus on anything they have in common?
I can understand why you're basically thinking "ugh", though.

[Joy]

maybe he just takes pleasure in making something look beautiful? neighbors be damned!

I knew I'd be criticized for saying that... but both Si dominants want to be in atmospheres THEY find pleasant. That's Si. Only one has a particular concern for making the environment pleasant for others.

[xyz]

I wasn't criticizing you...

Yes you were!


Actually, Joy made us seem rather selfish.
Well, maybe there's some truth to that.

[xyz]

bah, I just feel bad that Joy feels like I was criticizing her.

Why?

I'm going to get some pizza.

Why?

[Joy]

I wasn't criticizing you...

Er, I meant that I knew that Fe/Ti types would object to the "status" thing.

Yes you were!

lol

Actually, Joy made us seem rather selfish.

What type are you supposed to be these days?

Well, maybe there's some truth to that.

We're all selfish.

In this example, the SLI is selfish because he'd rather spend his time wandering around yard sales than actually working and helping make the lawn look good. (He's helping the best way he knows how, by finding a more efficient means to care for the lawn as economically as possible, which leaves money for the more important things regarding his family's comfort.)

The SEI is selfish because he wants to make the lawn look good the most immediate way possible instead of finding the most efficient and economic way possible to do so. (There's no way to know you're getting the best deal anyways, and it isn't worth the stress when you could be spending that time working in the yard... and yes, I'll even go as far as to say that the SEI would rather work twice as long in the yard because then the neighbors will see he's putting forth the effort... I'm definitely willing to admit that this is a biased suggestion though.)

[Joy]

bah, I just feel bad that Joy feels like I was criticizing her.



I'm going to get some pizza.

Sorry, my fault. You weren't. Enjoy your pizza though. (:

[Slacker]

maybe he just takes pleasure in making something look beautiful? neighbors be damned!

You know, this is funny because my husband and I had this conversation. I said that I think it's about the neighbors, and he said no, his dad just likes to do gardening. But, see, I don't think it's specifically or directly about the neighbors. It's more like he has a feeling like people have a responsibility to the community (or their neighborhood) to have their property look a certain way. So I think it is about the neighbors, but in a somewhat less direct way. I don't think he's concerned about impressing them or anything. And my husband did agree that he thinks his dad thinks people should "take pride in their gardens" or something, which is kind of related I think. It's like we have a responsibility to our community and neighborhood to take pride in our property, and that should show to others.

[xyz]

You know, this is funny because my husband and I had this conversation. I said that I think it's about the neighbors, and he said no, his dad just likes to do gardening. But, see, I don't think it's specifically or directly about the neighbors. It's more like he has a feeling like people have a responsibility to the community (or their neighborhood) to have their property look a certain way. So I think it is about the neighbors, but in a somewhat less direct way. I don't think he's concerned about impressing them or anything. And my husband did agree that he thinks his dad thinks people should "take pride in their gardens" or something, which is kind of related I think. It's like we have a responsibility to our community and neighborhood to take pride in our property, and that should show to others.

Your husband might feel manipulated if this is the reason your father in law wants to upkeep the garden.
I know my thinking would go along the lines of "The community can take care of itself, let's just take care of the garden whenever it needs tending" I suppose..

Joy, I'm still ISTp.

[Joy]

How about if one handles the grass and the other the garden?

It's not like your husband has a responsibility to help with the yard anyways.

wtf, I understand why you're back here... what a stressful situation... overworked and underfed. I don't think I'd be patient enough to deal with that.

[Park]

ISTp and ISFp do not talk. At all. We've spent three weeks with the in-laws so far, and I bet my husband has said 12 words to my father-in-law the whole time.

Does he talk more to your ESFj mother-in-law?

[Slacker]

He doesn't have any responsibility to keep the yard up to anyone else's standards, and I don't care in the slightest about that. I just want someplace for my kid to run around. But it's a big deal to my father-in-law. And he really does a beautiful job with his own yard. But it just isn't a priority for us.

They're only here a few more days. It is a bit stressful. More for him than me. But when he's stressed, I'm stressed. LOL

[Slacker]

Does he talk more to your ESFj mother-in-law?

He does talk more to her, but she's a chatterbox so everyone does, and he feels like she thinks he's a bit of a loser or something so that isn't all peaches and cream or anything.

[Joy]

Tell your husband that his dad will change his tune once the lawn is looking great. I'm not sure what to tell your dad. Ask the Alphas.

[Joy]

He does talk more to her, but she's a chatterbox so everyone does, and he feels like she thinks he's a bit of a loser or something so that isn't all peaches and cream or anything.

Ugh, get out of there. Pretend that Fe is your 7th function or something. In the very least, reassure him that it's okay to be very relieved that he's going home soon. Tell him he did all that any reasonable human could expect from him, or something.

[Slacker]

Ugh, get out of there. Pretend that Fe is your 7th function or something. In the very least, reassure him that it's okay to be very relieved that he's going home soon. Tell him he did all that any reasonable human could expect from him, or something.

I've been sending him off on errands for me a lot. He was gone a good part of the day doing things for me. LOL

[xyz]

I've been sending him off on errands for me a lot. He was gone a good part of the day doing things for me. LOL

I'm sure that helps a lot

[Joy]

haha, Ne ftw

[Blaze]

You know, this is funny because my husband and I had this conversation. I said that I think it's about the neighbors, and he said no, his dad just likes to do gardening. But, see, I don't think it's specifically or directly about the neighbors. It's more like he has a feeling like people have a responsibility to the community (or their neighborhood) to have their property look a certain way. So I think it is about the neighbors, but in a somewhat less direct way. I don't think he's concerned about impressing them or anything. And my husband did agree that he thinks his dad thinks people should "take pride in their gardens" or something, which is kind of related I think. It's like we have a responsibility to our community and neighborhood to take pride in our property, and that should show to others.

there's an old lady who lives next door to me. she's in her 80's and on a fixed income. her stupid kids can't be bothered, so i cut her front and side grass. for her....but really, for the neighborhood. :-) it doesn't take that long and i feel good helping her -and the neighborhood- out. alpha values? prolly. who wants to look at some ugly old dried out long grass? not me. plus the vermin start to live in there...not good. i mean i have an outdoor cat who would love to catch those mice and rats but you know then he starts to get worms....and i'm buying worm medicine, what with vet visits and all. def easier just to cut her grass....it just achieves so many things all at once, ya know?

plus she gives candy to my kids! :-)

[Expat]

Funny, the thing about "looking good for neighbors" wasn't my first thought. My own SEI father liked to do gardening, but it was all so that the garden would give him pleasant sensations, since neighbors couldn't see it.

[Blaze]

Funny, the thing about "looking good for neighbors" wasn't my first thought. My own SEI father liked to do gardening, but it was all so that the garden would give him pleasant sensations, since neighbors couldn't see it.

yeah but you want to give others pleasant sensations, too. "who wants to look at all that long grass?"

[leckysupport]

This could be Te vs. Fe.

The SLI wants to be economical, the SEI wants to look good for the neighbors.

I think Fe in this situation is more like a social sign of respect, dignity and elgence. Looking good for the neighbors I think would be Se.

[Joy]

okay so...

wants it to look good for the neighbors (and himself) > wants to look good for the neighbors

[leckysupport]

okay so...

wants it to look good for the neighbors (and himself) > wants to look good for the neighbors

a social sign of respect, dignity and elgence (Fe) > keeping up with the jones's (Se)

And I made the stupid assumption that you ment 'keeping up the jones's' when you said 'look good for the neighbours'.

Another example that might confuse things further:

This is the way a yard supposed to look/I care about the signs I give off to the community/ this is what a decent member of society does or something like that (Fe) Vs. Everyone else has a blah blah yard in this area, I need one too (Se).


I think slackers fil calls her husband lazy because he ignores these Fe signs that he's supposed to send out and just does what he needs to do.

I really didn't explain that well.

[Rubicon]

I think a social sign of respect = Fi
Wanting the neighbours to be pleased = Fe

[Joy]

leckysupport, I see your point.

I think a social sign of respect = Fi

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Some people's Fi values may include that sort of things, but some people's don't. The same applies for Ti values.


As for the Fe/Te aspects relating to the neighborhood:

Fe: It makes people feel good to drive down the street and see well cared for lawns. It makes people feel like all is well.

Te: The value of the neighborhood is related to how well people take care of their properties, including their lawns.

[Blaze]

and, wanting to experience beauty for his own enjoyment=Si

[leckysupport]

I think a social sign of respect = Fi

A friend of my dad (which I type SEI) made a comment about Anglican priests.

He was watching the news and he realized that the priests were not wearing dog collars and suits but where instead in jeans and t-shirts in the church during some ceremony (we don't know what the ceremony was).

He saw this as disrespectful and lazy like they can't even be bothered to dress themselves properly or they didn't care about god/the church enough to put in an effort.

That's what I mean.

[Rubicon]

A friend of my dad (which I type SEI) made a comment about Anglican priests.

He was watching the news and he realized that the priests were not wearing dog collars and suits but where instead in jeans and t-shirts in the church during some ceremony (we don't know what the ceremony was).

He saw this as disrespectful and lazy like they can't even be bothered to dress themselves properly or they didn't care about god/the church enough to put in an effort.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, I realised what you were getting at. I just thought that was more of a Fi thing - in terms of showing respect to groups of people you don't know. My dad's big on that and he's LSE - Fi valuing. I'm SEI - not to say I represent SEIs everywhere (c: - but I think more in terms of pleasing individuals, not society at large. For example, if I had a friendly relationship with the neighbours and I knew the state of my garden was something that bothered them - then certainly that would be a huge motivator for me. Otherwise, to think that I had to do up my garden for 'society' would turn me off more than anything. I might even leave it overgrown just to make it clear that I decide what I want to do with my garden, not society. lol And people who look down on people at church for not dressing up annoy me.

[Slacker]

Yeah, I realised what you were getting at. I just thought that was more of a Fi thing - in terms of showing respect to groups of people you don't know. My dad's big on that and he's LSE - Fi valuing. I'm SEI - not to say I represent SEIs everywhere (c: - but I think more in terms of pleasing individuals, not society at large. For example, if I had a friendly relationship with the neighbours and I knew the state of my garden was something that bothered them - then certainly that would be a huge motivator for me. Otherwise, to think that I had to do up my garden for 'society' would turn me off more than anything. I might even leave it overgrown just to make it clear that I decide what I want to do with my garden, not society. lol And people who look down on people at church for not dressing up annoy me.

Fi is about interpersonal relationships, not societal or neighborhood relationships. So respect between person A and person B, assuming person A and person B have some kind of real relationship (not just neighbors). Or among a group of people who are close due to their relatedness - not a group of people who happen to live near each other. It isn't about respect for neighbors. Nor is it about respect for society. That's more Fe.

So I'm Delta, and I value Fi but I'm still strong in Fe. I recognize that our neighbors would like our lawn kept up, but I don't personally care how it looks. Not a big deal and other people can worry about their own lawns. My husband, whose PoLR is Fe, gets really angry and uptight about the idea that our neighbors would think they have any right to have an issue about our lawn. It would bother him and make him rebel against mowing.

Now, we had neighbors, who were also friends, who were moving. So these are people we actually had a relationship with. While their house was for sale, we were very careful to keep everything looking immaculate for them. That's Fi (with a splash of Te as well).

[Joy]

Fi is about interpersonal relationships, not societal or neighborhood relationships. So respect between person A and person B, assuming person A and person B have some kind of real relationship (not just neighbors). Or among a group of people who are close due to their relatedness - not a group of people who happen to live near each other. It isn't about respect for neighbors. Nor is it about respect for society. That's more Fe.

So I'm Delta, and I value Fi but I'm still strong in Fe. I recognize that our neighbors would like our lawn kept up, but I don't personally care how it looks. Not a big deal and other people can worry about their own lawns. My husband, whose PoLR is Fe, gets really angry and uptight about the idea that our neighbors would think they have any right to have an issue about our lawn. It would bother him and make him rebel against mowing.

Now, we had neighbors, who were also friends, who were moving. So these are people we actually had a relationship with. While their house was for sale, we were very careful to keep everything looking immaculate for them. That's Fi (with a splash of Te as well).

Thank you, I thought about this but didn't want to speak for Delta. I think the society/community values could be more related to Ti (and expressed through Fe) though.

[Slacker]

It could be Ti in the "rules and regulations" sense, and of course Ti and Fe are always going to be involved together as far as quadra values go, but in a battle between Fe and Fi, "societal rules" would be Fe.

[Exodus]

It could be Ti in the "rules and regulations" sense, and of course Ti and Fe are always going to be involved together as far as quadra values go, but in a battle between Fe and Fi, "societal rules" would be Fe.

Hmm, I don't think so. The only way this issue might be related to Fe is because Fe is responsible for asking "do my actions and words honestly reflect my thoughts and feelings?" So "taking pride in one's garden" could mean he sees the garden as a medium of self-expression. But the idea that we are all inextricably part of the same society (which implies certain basic responsibilities to other people) is Ti.

This is actually the thing I find most frustrating about dealing with Fi quadra types. They seem to think you can just cut someone out of your life if you don't like them, rather than airing your differences and trying to cooperate and make some kind of mutually acceptable agreement. Deltas are more accepting of alternative viewpoints than Gammas, but they still prefer to avoid people they don't like (to be "nice"). It's kind of sad, though I think it's helped me understand better how Fe and Ti complement each other.

[Joy]

It could be Ti in the "rules and regulations" sense, and of course Ti and Fe are always going to be involved together as far as quadra values go, but in a battle between Fe and Fi, "societal rules" would be Fe.

Ti and Fi are much more similar then Fe and Fi are.

Ti: external systems/rules
Fi: internal (underlying) systems/rules

The Ti/Fe value system (anything beyond people's emotions/internal states) is based on Ti.

[Joy]

Perhaps think of it in terms of... the relationships between people as you know them are Fi. The relationships between people from a Ti perspective are similar, but they're more along the lines of society/community/other external grouping.

[Exodus]

Perhaps think of it in terms of... the relationships between people as you know them are Fi. The relationships between people from a Ti perspective are similar, but they're more along the lines of society/community/other external grouping.

Exactly. Fi relationships are direct ties between things, and are hence invisible. (I like to think about it like being a line parallel to the line of sight.) Ti relationships result from inclusion in an external system - e.g.



- which is itself visible.

[xyz]

This is actually the thing I find most frustrating about dealing with Fi quadra types. They seem to think you can just cut someone out of your life if you don't like them, rather than airing your differences and trying to cooperate and make some kind of mutually acceptable agreement. Deltas are more accepting of alternative viewpoints than Gammas, but they still prefer to avoid people they don't like (to be "nice"). It's kind of sad, though I think it's helped me understand better how Fe and Ti complement each other.

Why the fuck should I deal with people I don't like?

[Logos]

I knew I'd be criticized for saying that... but both Si dominants want to be in atmospheres THEY find pleasant. That's Si. Only one has a particular concern for making the environment pleasant for others.

Does an SEI not care to make the environment look pleasant for themselves? If you were worried about being criticized for your comment, then perhaps you should have realized the error in your statement.

Funny, the thing about "looking good for neighbors" wasn't my first thought. My own SEI father liked to do gardening, but it was all so that the garden would give him pleasant sensations, since neighbors couldn't see it.

This was my first thought as well since I have an ESE grandmother who enjoys gardening and keeping-up flowers for this purpose.

Why the fuck should I deal with people I don't like?

Because sometimes you can get more done by doing so than if you don't.

[Joy]

This is actually the thing I find most frustrating about dealing with Fi quadra types. They seem to think you can just cut someone out of your life if you don't like them, rather than airing your differences and trying to cooperate and make some kind of mutually acceptable agreement. Deltas are more accepting of alternative viewpoints than Gammas, but they still prefer to avoid people they don't like (to be "nice"). It's kind of sad, though I think it's helped me understand better how Fe and Ti complement each other.

Interesting... I never thought of it quite like that. It makes sense because the external view of such relationships is more "objective" (meaning not prone to interpersonal bias) than the internal view. Like, "you can decide that this person isn't important to you, but 'objectively' that person is still part of your neighborhood/company/community/student body/forum/industry/whatever as much as anyone else is". So then it's better to express disdain or irritation or whatever it is your internal dynamics are?

Where as to us that just seems like a lot of needless drama... "If you don't like him, then just don't talk to him. No need to create a scene."