SLI-SEI Kindred Relations (ISTp & ISFp)

[Joy]

Does an SEI not care to make the environment look pleasant for themselves?

I was saying that they do.

The point I was making was that the SEI is taking a more feelery approach to the matter (as described later in the topic) while the SLI is taking a more practical approach to the matter (from his perspective at least... if it were me I'd just buy a fucking lawnmower at Sears or where ever... to me the idea of shopping garage sales for used a mower and then fixing it seems like a waste of time).

[xyz]

Because sometimes you can get more done by doing so than if you don't.

When are these sometimes?

[Joy]

When are these sometimes?

lol, that's a rather vague question... with endless answers

[Logos]

I was saying that they do.

The point I was making was that the SEI is taking a more feelery approach to the matter (as described later in the topic) while the SLI is taking a more practical approach to the matter (from his perspective at least... if it were me I'd just buy a fucking lawnmower at Sears or where ever... to me the idea of shopping garage sales for used a mower and then fixing it seems like a waste of time).

You then need to improve how you get that across.

[xyz]

lol, that's a rather vague question... with endless answers

Then it shouldn't take you more than a minute to pull out one.

[Logos]

When are these sometimes?

Business. Connections. Obtaining supplies and information. Politics. When the person you hate happens to be the best equipped to do a job that needs to be done.

[xyz]

Business. Connections. Obtaining supplies and information. Politics. When the person you hate happens to be the best equipped to do a job that needs to be done.

Funnily enough, none of that matters to me. And if a person I hate happens to have what I need, I find another person.

[Logos]

Funnily enough, none of that matters to me. And if a person I hate happens to have what I need, I find another person.

Good for you then, but I am more concerned about getting the job done than my sentimental attachment to the person.

[xyz]

Good for you then, but I am more concerned about getting the job done than my sentimental attachment to the person.

And again, I'm more concerned about not dealing with idiots and compromising my mental state merely to "obtain" something.

We'll just agree to disagree.

[Logos]

And again, I'm more concerned about not dealing with idiots and compromising my mental state merely to "obtain" something.

We'll just agree to disagree.

Is everyone you hate an idiot? I have yet to compromise my mental state to get a job done by working with people I dislike. It is just working with people. If I chose not work with people I disliked, I would probably have never gotten much done that needed to be done.

[Warlord]

I have yet to compromise my mental state to get a job done by working with people I dislike. It is just working with people.

Are you sure they are really working with you. Or just giving that impression while taking the advantage of you. That's what I would do to someone who disliked me and was naive enough to work with me.

[Joy]

I'm with Logos on this one, at least when it comes to business/professional matters. Get it done the most effective way possible. This may involve interacting with people who you wouldn't choose to stand up in your wedding, be your room mate, date, or hang out after work with. It may even be people you don't entirely trust. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't interact with them at all though.

[Joy]

Then it shouldn't take you more than a minute to pull out one.

Okay, let's say that you dislike the guy working at the booth in the parking garage (and there's only one lane). Are you going to just sit in your car and wait for his shift to end and the next person starts his/her shift so you don't have to interact with him?

[Logos]

Are you sure they are really working with you. Or just giving that impression while taking the advantage of you. That's what I would do to someone who disliked me and was naive enough to work with me.

Paranoia? They are most likely not taking advantage of me no more than I am taking advantage of them to get the job done. If they are, so be it, but I have little idea as to what they would gain from doing so in most of these cases.

[Warlord]

Paranoia?

Reality. Modern western society is built upon the theories of von Hayek, Nash, Buchanan and Laing, that people pursue their self-interest. People motivated by others factors are liability to any organisation.

[Logos]

Reality. Modern western society is built upon the theories of von Hayek, Nash, Buchanan and Laing, that people pursue their self-interest. People motivated by others factors are liability to any organisation.

Funny what the paranoid call reality. I am well aware of those theories and largely agree with them. Of course everyone serves their own self-interest (such is the way of animals), but that does not mean that cooperation with those I do not like implies that I am being taken advantage of no more than I am taking advantage of them in my own self-interest to complete an objective. From what I have observed and experienced, it is always the paranoid who are easily manipulated and taken advantage.

[FDG]

Saying that a society is built upon a theory is clearly nonsense. Theories are made to explain external events, it's impossible to organize millions of individuals on the basis of a particular theory.

[Logos]

Saying that a society is built upon a theory is clearly nonsense. Theories are made to explain external events, it's impossible to organize millions of individuals on the basis of a particular theory.

And yet cities can be built on rock 'n' roll?

[FDG]

And yet cities can be built on rock 'n' roll?

Rocks can't walk, talk, interact, make personal decisions based on their own beliefs-choices, decide for themselves what's more useful, efficient, interesting, -insert other adjective here-

I'm sure that theories can be good to fine-tune societal processes in order to make laws that don't infringe what's already in place, or that slightly modify what's in place in order to reach a particular aim. But bulding a society from group up? I've personally never seen it happen, nor I can imagine it happening.

[Logos]

Rocks can't walk, talk, interact, make personal decisions based on their own beliefs-choices, decide for themselves what's more useful, efficient, interesting, -insert other adjective here-

And another reference to one of the worst rock songs in history goes unnoticed.

[Logos]

Fail.

Tell me about. Maybe Italy has yet to be enlightened by graceful music of Jefferson Starship.

[Park]

From what I have observed and experienced, it is always the paranoid who are easily manipulated and taken advantage.

+1

[Warlord]

Saying that a society is built upon a theory is clearly nonsense. Theories are made to explain external events, it's impossible to organize millions of individuals on the basis of a particular theory.

All socities are built on some theory: democracy, communism etc. These ideologies are all based on theories what people are like, what they want, what the world is like etc.

[Warlord]

Funny what the paranoid call reality.

First of all you assume paranoia. I might have instigated some Fi paranoia in my message.

From what I have observed and experienced, it is always the paranoid who are easily manipulated and taken advantage.

Sure, but not as easy as people who are willing to take shit from others, are gullible or naive. Paranoid people perhaps are easy to manipulate in some ways, but it's limited how you can manipulate them.

For example someone slacking off in a team at the expence of others is much much more likely than a paranoid person that you can manipulate. Or maybe Finnish people are just more mentally healthy then

And I wasn't originally talking about entirely about manipulation. I see many more and better options to handle the situation, so that you don't have to work with people who you dislike you.

LokiVanguards original point might have been along the lines, that by avoiding working with people that dislike you, you avoid anxiety, that can result in mental problems. That can result to health problems. In the long term it's in the interest of both you and the organisation that people working there don't have health problems. They will see you as a wreck. And incapable of handling situations, if you can't even manage your work relations to your benefit.

[Logos]

First of all you assume paranoia. I might have instigated some Fi paranoia in my message.

Perhaps.

Sure, but not as easy as people who are willing to take shit from others, are gullible or naive. Paranoid people perhaps are easy to manipulate in some ways, but it's limited how you can manipulate them.

Believe it or not, those two ideas are not mutually exclusively, at least not psychologically. But I do understand the rest of your post.

[Blaze]

This is actually the thing I find most frustrating about dealing with Fi quadra types. They seem to think you can just cut someone out of your life if you don't like them, rather than airing your differences and trying to cooperate and make some kind of mutually acceptable agreement. Deltas are more accepting of alternative viewpoints than Gammas, but they still prefer to avoid people they don't like (to be "nice"). It's kind of sad, though I think it's helped me understand better how Fe and Ti complement each other.

is this Fi or delta aristocracy? because i find delta to be hierarchical. at times they base their aristocracy on class or who is traditionally seen as having status etc in the larger society.

where beta aristocracy seems more based on the actual personal power of a person and their ability to lead others, no matter what their ascribed social position is.

so maybe it's Fi/Te based artistocracy vs Fe/Ti based? i comment since i don't really get quite the same feel from gamma....dunno what i'm really trying to say here actually just a thot about differences in quadra values and how they're expressed.

[xyz]

LokiVanguards original point might have been along the lines, that by avoiding working with people that dislike you, you avoid anxiety, that can result in mental problems. That can result to health problems. In the long term it's in the interest of both you and the organisation that people working there don't have health problems. They will see you as a wreck. And incapable of handling situations, if you can't even manage your work relations to your benefit.

Exactly, it's not really in anyone's interest to continuously deal with people who just seem to piss you off.

[Logos]

Exactly, it's not really in anyone's interest to continuously deal with people who just seem to piss you off.

But I am not talking about continuous action, merely temporary.

[FDG]

They seem to think you can just cut someone out of your life if you don't like them, rather than airing your differences and trying to cooperate and make some kind of mutually acceptable agreement.

An obvious mutually acceptable agreement between two people that dislike each other is to never interact anymore, so what's the problem with cutting people out of your life?

I'm totally with LokiV on this. There is no way I will get something done (unless it's something extremely trivial) and preserve my mental health if I have to interact with somebody I can't stand. Perhaps that's why Joy is insane.

Business. Connections. Obtaining supplies and information. Politics. When the person you hate happens to be the best equipped to do a job that needs to be done.

Geez, I'd totally feel a worthless shit if I were to care about this stuff (not to mean that people that care are worthless shits - it's just my feeling)