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Thread: The Rigidity of Fi and Ti

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    Logos's Avatar
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    Default The Rigidity of Fi and Ti

    Just exactly how rigid do you see the functions of and as being (especially in comparison with and )? To what extent do you consider this a positive or negative aspect for the information elements?

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    Both Ti and Fi create system of rules, but Fi creates it in inter-personal sphere, what isn't proper place for it. For me, target of every action is to entertain and in different situations this entertainment is being achieved in different way. I prefer contact with people without "tact limits", letting emotions be free, whatever they are.
    While rigidity in world of things, in world of science, and activities like that, helps to dig into source that attracts us so much

    Or maybe I have wrong look at Fi ;]

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    I'd answer this seriously, however I think my ideas of and have turned out to be crossed in a lot of respects or flat out naive.

    Oh, well, I'll discuss it anyway. The hardest thing for me to accept for Fi was envisioning it as being rigid or systematized much at all. I always wanted to describe it as more ready to shift or change than Ti seems capable of typically. Not to say that Ti 'updates' more slowly, just that I always thought Fi almost appeared to me as more perceptual than rational. What I mean there is that you feel an emotion, you respond to something you see or hear around you, and it feels a certain way. The buzzing tingle of deep realization, the jittery energy of liking someone you're talking to, the slowly building lump in your throat from a breaking heart, etc. You see these things in other people and you know the feeling, you remember the sensations, maybe you even start to feel it come over you as well.

    It was built into my idea of things that Fi was the internal emotionality a person experienced, Fe the extent to which emotions were externally expressed, that the former was sincere because it reflected what a person felt regardless of whether they let the world see it, that the latter was more deceptive because it might not be showing the emotions someone had on the inside. Naturally, I've sold Fe very short for a long while, and the realization of that is probably why I don't cling to EII quite so strongly these days. I just assumed that my ability to be with someone or a group and to sink into the flow of it, see what everyone was feeling, was a function of using Ne (different perspectives) to guess at their Fi (what they were internally experiencing), but now that seems plainly wrong.

    Sorry, this is one hell of a derail, logos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Just exactly how rigid do you see the functions of and as being (especially in comparison with and )? To what extent do you consider this a positive or negative aspect for the information elements?
    i don't know if they are rigid as much as they are static, which could make them seem rigid.

    when they are used creatively, they're not rigid. they're like spirograph, dude.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    i don't know if they are rigid as much as they are static, which could make them seem rigid.

    when they are used creatively, they're not rigid. they're like spirograph, dude.
    Perhaps, but when a common criticism of Ti and Fi (by either Te or Fe quadras respectively) is that they are too rigid, we have to wonder just exactly how rigid the two elements actually are?

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    People of all types can be very sure of something, or very unwilling to change, or they may be prone to wishful thinking etc., or they may have an inability to consider or reconsider.

    I think introverted judging types can seem rigid because they have less energy compared to extroverts . They try to conserve energy in the external world, and they do this through long-considered methods. They can't just screw all that up like a piece of paper - the extroverts might consider th e steadfastness of the introverts to some seemingly intangible thoughts to be hardnosed foolishness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Perhaps, but when a common criticism of Ti and Fi (by either Te or Fe quadras respectively) is that they are too rigid, we have to wonder just exactly how rigid the two elements actually are?
    point taken logos. if we conceive of Ti as classifications of objects and say that the classification is absolute then Ti is rigid. if we say that Ti is the classification of objects and concede that classifications are really just short cuts to understanding and that some things don't fit into categories and that there are tons of different kinds of categories and classification systems anyway, then it doesn't seem so rigid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Just exactly how rigid do you see the functions of and as being
    Depends on which function it is.

    (especially in comparison with and )?
    Yes.

    To what extent do you consider this a positive or negative aspect for the information elements?
    Both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Depends on which function it is.
    Either would work, but since rigidity of these elements are associated more with the leading function, let's focus more on that, shall we?

    Yes.

    Both.
    Those are not really appropriate answers. I am asking for the extent to which they are rigid in comparison with dynamic rational elements and how that can be both positive and negative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Either would work, but since rigidity of these elements are associated more with the leading function, let's focus more on that, shall we?

    Those are not really appropriate answers. I am asking for the extent to which they are rigid in comparison with dynamic rational elements and how that can be both positive and negative.
    Compared solely to Te and Fe, they are extremely rigid. They have to be in order to balance Te and Fe out. (Keep in mind though that we all use all of our functions.)

    There are probably innumerable ways that rigidity could be positive or negative. It's all about balance.

    An example of either Fi or Ti being too rigid would be trying to impose one's Ti/Fi judgments onto others to the extent of not respecting their values, opinions, perspectives, and decisions.

    Another example would be ignoring other functions pretty much entirely and focusing on Ti/Fi (which I guess is also what would be happening in the above example as well).
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    Both Fi and Ti are more rigid than Fe and Te. This is because they are static; they don't change. Ti types are rigid about their intellectual beliefs, ideas and theories about the world (at least Ti base types are anyway). Fi types are rigid about their system of preferences; who they like, what they despise etc.. Fi types have a moral code inherent within them; what is right, what is wrong to them personally. Ti types may also have a moral code, but this stems primarily from a Ti line of thinking. So when something is wrong for a Ti type, it's wrong because their system of morals that they have created says it is.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    point taken logos. if we conceive of Ti as classifications of objects and say that the classification is absolute then Ti is rigid. if we say that Ti is the classification of objects and concede that classifications are really just short cuts to understanding and that some things don't fit into categories and that there are tons of different kinds of categories and classification systems anyway, then it doesn't seem so rigid.
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    i don't know if they are rigid as much as they are static, which could make them seem rigid.

    when they are used creatively, they're not rigid. they're like spirograph, dude.
    Perhaps that's an apt metaphor then... I never could seem to get the spirograph to make anything other than straight lines. I guess my dexterity for figuring out how to coordinate those knobs to make curves was extremely poor. That stupid screen was extremely frustrating for me.

    I do actually perceive and to be somewhat rigid. With , it's the perception that someone has rigidly classified or defined their relationship to me; bounded me into a box. I tend to want to feel a natural organic progression in my relationships, esp. to people I'm interested in getting closer to. But the sense of is that I'm not the "decider" about that. The person is. I can feel held at arms' length and frustrated; like I never really get anywhere with them, despite trying. Sometimes this feels to me like prejudgement. A predefined patterned behavioral response based on a few characteristics.

    I have less of a clear concept of. But I gather it's a structured mental architecture that may be somewhat impervious to fluid alteration. Kinda "missing the forest for the tree"... remaining stubbornly focused on small details defined by an internal framework that may not always be capable of the flexibility required to respond spontaneously to an actual in situ dynamic event.
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    Ti and Fi are like building structures. Rigid, yes. They have to be or they won't be able to support the building. They can still be changed though.
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    The change of Ti and Fi structures are constant but noticeably slower than Te and Fe, because the change occurs after reevaluating the existing structure or pieces thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    I do actually perceive and to be somewhat rigid. With , it's the perception that someone has rigidly classified or defined their relationship to me; bounded me into a box. I tend to want to feel a natural organic progression in my relationships, esp. to people I'm interested in getting closer to. But the sense of is that I'm not the "decider" about that. The person is. I can feel held at arms' length and frustrated; like I never really get anywhere with them, despite trying. Sometimes this feels to me like prejudgement. A predefined patterned behavioral response based on a few characteristics.
    This is a good description of how would feel to -quadras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune View Post
    I have less of a clear concept of. But I gather it's a structured mental architecture that may be somewhat impervious to fluid alteration. Kinda "missing the forest for the tree"... remaining stubbornly focused on small details defined by an internal framework that may not always be capable of the flexibility required to respond spontaneously to an actual in situ dynamic event.
    ah well good point. i guess what i meant is that while Ti may be a rigid thing as a stand-alone, creative Ti doesn't use Ti in a rigid way. at all. creative Ti process is pretty flexible.

    Ti classifications are just guidelines, really. not meant to be rigid, ime. more, just meant to organize things. by way of contrast, Te is more concerned with the tracking of facts and data as they present themselves. so it's more random and dynamic. but once you have all those facts and data, they can be organized into groups, which can create a postulate and eventually a theory, which can make predictions.

    i guess for me it's hard to separate Ti from Ne. since Ne is totally random and flexible. you kind have to have some Ti to make sense of things. so, since i experience Ti in conjunction with Ne, it doesn't feel rigid. it feels necessary! hahaha

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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