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Thread: Overly simplistic one-line descriptions of Fi and Fe

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    Default Overly simplistic one-line descriptions of Fi and Fe

    No doubt this is obvious to most people anyway, but I really need to get over my fear of posting random ideas and whatnot:

    Fi: Relations with (an) individual(s)
    Fe: Relations with (a) group(s)

    Relations meaning how you stand with that entity, how the entity perceives you (Se influence with this part?), how you feel about that entity, etc. etc. yesno?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLauritson View Post
    No doubt this is obvious to most people anyway, but I really need to get over my fear of posting random ideas and whatnot:

    Fi: Relations with (an) individual(s)
    Fe: Relations with (a) group(s)

    Relations meaning how you stand with that entity, how the entity perceives you (Se influence with this part?), how you feel about that entity, etc. etc. yesno?
    i'm not sure i understand. how do you have a relationship with a group?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    i'm not sure i understand. how do you have a relationship with a group?
    They call them orgies, I believe.
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    rofl, erm...trying to think how to explain this. Imagine this group, rather than being comprised of individuals, being an entity in itself. And it's your relations with that particular entity. Does that make sense? It's hard to explain given that I still don't really understand these two functions overly well. Also, relations doesn't necessarily have to mean a relationship in the sense of a fixed bond, but rather just how things stand at the present moment. Gah the more I write the more I think of other things that tie into it which ultimately invalidate what I'm trying to say in the first place. I dunno, now that I've thought about it more I don't know how much I agree with my own post now. Bah I dunno.
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    It sounds like macro-Fi vs. micro-Fi. Like Fi goes on between the individuals in groups, while Fe is like the Fi between groups... or between individuals and groups...

    I don't know how to make it work.

    Fe is supposed to be more group centered... I'm not sure in what way though...

    I will cease rambling.

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    Fe just gets noticeable more in groups obviously, and I think deep down Fe-valuers care more about group acceptance even if they think they don't. I thought all I needed in life was the support of a very good friend or two, but I'm just not psychologically happy unless I have more of a community support. It doesn't mean that everybody has to love me or adore me it's just... I guess, they have to understand the 'gist' of me or I'm upset. To Fi people it comes across as attention seeking and special rights seeking but it isn't.

    My best friend is actually a Fi-valuer and she doesn't understand this about me.

    Fi people all kinda talk the same way to me (lol kinda like 'all black people look the same!') but it's true, like it's hard to tell them apart since they seem to care so much about having that emotional effect be in the background.

    However I think the way people exaggerate the Fe and Fi stereotypes is just... lol well funny, but wrong. It actually is very subtle and in my experience Fe-valuers can actually APPEAR to be very Fi-ish (and vice-versa). People aren't going to be socially ostracized and if I'm in a heavy Fi-sphere I'm going to appear really aloof and too shy/standoffish.

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    Another thing is I think extroverts naturally "deal" in groups better or more. So that might affect it as well.

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    lol...one of the things that stumped me in the second post was that I seem to be writing all of this from a Gamma perspective without realising it. I genuinely think it's either impossible or otherwise extremely difficult to write about functions, types, anything of that nature without writing it through your own type's or quadra's perspective. So for example here's me trying to write one difference between Fe and Fi, but I'm still doing all of this from a SeFi perspective it seems, since that's the window through which I understand Fe and Fi in general. It's annoying, when I play it through my mind initially, it seems like a really good and developed idea. Yet the more I go into it once I'm actually communicating it, the more distorted it becomes and the more I realise I'm failing to achieve the original objective I'd set for myself. In this case to highlight one of the many bazillions of differences between Fe and Fi. I don't know if I'll ever be able to achieve this. Perhaps my mental capacity is not great enough to achieve such a task. Perhaps I'll never know...
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    Fe is supposed to be more group centered... I'm not sure in what way though...
    I don't think it's that Fe people are buddy-buddy or want people to smile more or be fake, we just want everybody to be a little happy. The stereotype that we can't have close relationships with one person or value intimacy with one person is just silly, but my Fi-valuer best friend always begs for my attention for hours on end and it's just draining because to me it's quantity and not quality. Then when I try to be more emotional and epic, she distances herself away from me.

    I just don't want to sit and talk with the same person for 7 hours unless we can get really deep and epic/romantic/emotional. But she wants to be practical and a bit Diana-ish, and it just rubs me the wrong way. However we're still CRAZY about each other for non-socionics related reasons. =D

    And I was in 'group therapy' too for many years for a variety of issues. At first I thought I hated it, but I was more successful with it in the long run then I was with independent Fi therapy. It helps me when a group of people shares their struggles about stuff.

    Now I grew up around a lot of Fi people, so it's hard for me sometimes. But this is about who I really am not who other people want me to be or even who I wish I was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLauritson View Post
    No doubt this is obvious to most people anyway, but I really need to get over my fear of posting random ideas and whatnot:

    Fi: Relations with (an) individual(s)
    Fe: Relations with (a) group(s)

    Relations meaning how you stand with that entity, how the entity perceives you (Se influence with this part?), how you feel about that entity, etc. etc. yesno?
    Not really simplistic at all..

    Fi : Focus on inner emotions
    Fe: Focus on outer emotions

    Example:
    Fi : I'm having a pretty great time, but I just don't like that one guy..Maybe I should leave
    Fe: I really don't like that guy, but that's fine, I'm having a fun..

    Fi: This guy is really boring me, but I like him and maybe he just needs someone to talk to..
    Fe: WOW, this guy is boring the hell out of me, but I'll listen to him so I won't ruin the atmosphere..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It sounds like macro-Fi vs. micro-Fi.
    You hit the nail on the head. BLauritson, both of these examples you've given are Fi. They're about concentration on relationships, which is a Fi mode of thinking. When we're talking about relationships within a group, it's about multiple Fi elements ("how do I feel towards this person? How about that person? And these people?"), but when it's one-to-one, you're concentrating on a single relationship with someone.

    Put simply, Fe is less about relationships, and more about emotions.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    : What you need.
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    *sigh* I should have realised what a can of worms I'd be opening, but no, I just had to go and post this fucking thread didn't I? And of course it's far too gone for it to be deleted, so instead I've just stirred up a load of drama! WHOOP DE DO. Gee I'm such a fucking valuable addition to this ofrum. 'AE[pkjksdf'pojSFD;ois x'e,8[l3

    I don't know what's wrong with me...I try to get my head round exactly how the functions work and I fail. I think I've finally cracked a certain aspect of two functions, only to find out I was describing the same function. I try to leave this forum and I end up returning. I try to combat my fear of posting new ideas and look what happens, nothing but fucking trouble. No doubt this is just going to be seen as attention whorism but I just can't be bothered anymore. I don't know why I bother but I do. I know why. Because I'm addicted. Because I can't get enough of this stupid place. I get bored if I don't visit it. And yet if I try to participate? I cause trouble. I cause drama. I cause chaos. I simply try to help, and for it I suffer. For it I'm punished. I simply seek to understand, yet find only embarrassment. Why do you hound me so? What have I done to hurt you? That's right. I registered. I fucking registered. I did something so many others have done, and for it I pay. For it I sit here writhing with anger, with shame, with hatred. But it is undirected. And thus it sits within me. Building up until I explode. I sit idly by while I watch entire types and quadras take flak for the actions of a few individuals. I make so many enemies who don't even know I hate them. And yet here I come to reconcile the differences, make an attempt at peace. But this forum doesn't want peace. It doesn't even know peace. It wants chaos. It craves war. It desires drama. It generates contempt between individuals who have never even met. It forms alliances of hatred. Misconceptions abound, knowledge is twisted to suit the needs of those who know how to use it. Entire systems are built to support people's agendas. People embrace these systems, identify with their types, their functions, their quadras. People form prejudice based on those types. This isn't Socionics. This is akin to a religious war. Fighting eachother for their beliefs. Socionics will know no peace. Life will know no peace. The universe is in turmoil. Always was and always will be. This, my friends, is my confession.
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    If y'all seriously feel like that..then y'all are taking the internet wwaaayy too seriously..

    but anyway, you can't even say all that, you have no idea what my type is or rather or not I value Fe or Fi.. Hell, you don't even know if I like it or not..

    Stop assuming...

    Now read this..
    http://socionics.us/theory/be.shtml

    and try to tell me how what I wrote disagrees with it..

    And who am I to say that you're not genuine?? Never said anything like that..
    But Fe is objective, that's part of being an Extraverted Element. It's external. Now what you feel may be genuine, that's not the point. How you choose to express it and whether or not you choose to is that point..
    You taking things way too personal..

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    I'm sorry, I just....I dunno, this forum has a very weird effect on my mind. It always has done...for a long time when I first registered I was afraid to post anything for fear that people would get annoyed at me. I don't really understand why I'm like this here, since I've been using internet forums since I was 13 and I've never had this problem before. But I seem to get really anxious at times on this forum. Not constantly, but now and again. And it builds up until I have a completely irrational outburst like above. It's like when I had a lot of responses telling me I was still looking at both functions from a Fi perspective (which I started to realise in my second post in the thread) I started to feel really embarrassed that I'd made such a mistake. I thought about editing it out but people had already quoted it so I couldn't (well, I could but the original content would still be in the quotes). I just felt completely ignorant which, considering I've been studying Socionics for what, 2 years now? I've lost track of when I first started...but yeah, I just felt completely ashamed about it all. It's times like this I wonder if I've got Te PoLR the way I react to things like this. I wish I could say this was a one-off, but it's not. Normally I just keep it inside though. Why I happened to burst out on the forum this time when I haven't before, I don't really know... I guess it's obvious I've got psychological issues though. I just wish I knew why this forum specifically seems to have such an odd effect on my mind. Whether it's because I've observed so many so-called "forum idiots" coming and going, watching them get ostracised and fearing the same could happen to me if I'm not careful.. I guess I thought that's what had happened to me here. I just felt completely ashamed of myself...I tried to change my forum name to something completely random, only to find I don't have that option. I had to try and disassociate myself from this entity who had made such a fundamental mistake. *sigh* I'm glad this particular matter was resolved...at least I won't be losing any sleep or dwelling on it tomorrow morning now. Perhaps I should start saving up some money to see a psychologist. Although they're bloody expensive from what I've seen. Deal with some of them through work and I've seen them charge up to £200 (~$350 or so) per session. I dunno, maybe I'll eventually resolve the issues on my own. If I can work out what's causing them in the first place. I dunno...I'm an odd person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I've really appreciated what mune has had to say on this subject...I felt bad that he used to think SFs where not "up to par" or whatever with the other types, that they couldn't grasp certain concepts...but I'm glad he got over that a bit......I'm really glad that the line between Fe and Fi has blurred in his mind....it makes me feel glad that I've stayed here in the discussion and not left because some people like to make generalizations of how I am......I'm glad that I have a chance to listen to mune, in spite of being annoyed with others sometimes....if mune wasn't here, I'd probably leave this stupid discussion and take out my inner rage at the stereotypes some other way.....but I stayed here because of him....I respect mune greatly and would prefer a one on one conversation with him as opposed to some "party atmosphere" "fun atmosphere", etc..........how's that for personal? Personal. Personal. It's all fucking personal. Don't pawn off that concept on Fi types, please.
    <3

    Thanks, dolphin. That really means a lot to me coming from you. And, fwiw, I have crazy respect for all you alpha SFs, particularly when they have their head on as straight as you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I'm not assuming anything, except that I disliked your post and was replying to it to say so. I explained how I chose to express it, and I addressed a point I felt was important. As for being too "personal", fuck that. I'm communicating the way I communicate.

    And your Fe examples aren't any more "objective" than your Fi examples. They are simply thoughts that could be had by anyone.
    mmhhmm ok
    Show me something better

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I thought you considered yourself an honorary alpha SF now? Sup quadra-mate!
    Hey, it's possible. And I'd be in fantastic company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Why should I? If your assumptions, if your descriptions are general, stereotypical, and not applicable, why would you hold onto them, simply because you're waiting for something "better"? Are we simply confined to the examples, to the anecdotes, to the descriptions that are crappy, unless someone can think of something better? What a confined way to think, to live, to practice Socionics. In my opinion there is no "better" way to describe them, because those things you listed are simply behaviorial traits not applicable to type, but to people. A "better" way would be to just get rid of them and try to observe the way you relate to different people in different quadras and how you and they react, and how you and they see eachother's point of view. There is no one clear, unbiased description of information aspects, because they are all filtered through someone's point of view. There is no universal information manual for types that will work for everyone. That's part of the point of Socionics.

    oh god....
    ok whatever
    I'm done
    you aren't even making sense now..

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Why should I? If your assumptions, if your descriptions are general, stereotypical, and not applicable, why would you hold onto them, simply because you're waiting for something "better"?
    If it didn't work for me, I wouldn't of said it.. I'm not waiting for anything better, you had the nerve to criticize yet you couldn't improve nothing, so it pretty much meant that nothing you said meant anything.. I was just thinking that since you had such a sure idea of what was wrong, you'd at least have some idea of what was right..
    I've been into socionics for a few years now, and I know I've got a pretty good understanding of it through reading through a lot and talking it out with a lot of people who I consider knowledgeable..
    This forum is too drama filled, and if y'all want to get anywhere in y'all discussions, y'all gotta stop taking stuff so personal..
    It's just not worth it...
    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin
    Are we simply confined to the examples, to the anecdotes, to the descriptions that are crappy, unless someone can think of something better? What a confined way to think, to live, to practice Socionics.
    Okay, then if not with examples, anecdotes, or descriptions, what are you left with?? You ain't got no right to criticize somebody for trying if you not even gonna contribute? You gotta start somewhere...

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin
    In my opinion there is no "better" way to describe them, because those things you listed are simply behaviorial traits not applicable to type, but to people. A "better" way would be to just get rid of them and try to observe the way you relate to different people in different quadras and how you and they react, and how you and they see eachother's point of view.
    Been there, done that.. You assuming that I just started learning about this, but no..Few years now.. I know the elements, I know the types, and I know the people of the types.. I've already got a fundamental understanding, and I was hoping people could add to it.. But apparently they got too many people like you in the world to actually have a decent discussion.. All them assumptions and attacks aren't warranted..
    Get over yourself..

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin
    There is no one clear, unbiased description of information aspects, because they are all filtered through someone's point of view. There is no universal information manual for types that will work for everyone.
    Nobody said there was.. But the point is too work towards something that will work for the majority of people.. To have at least a place to start...

    I seriously wasn't gonna reply.. It's really not worth the effort for you just to come up with more bull how I'm belittling and whatever.. I wasn't trying to convince nobody of nothing, The topic was about one liners, and that's what I posted.. If somebody wanted the reasoning maybe they could of asked..instead of what you're doing.. In fact, I wanted to be corrected, but not from somebody like you..More like Expat or whatever..But you didn't provide anything more, you just attacked..
    Now I don't know what issues or problems you having, but it's not with me..

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    : What you need.
    : What you deserve.
    @ Alphas/Betas: let's all LOL at the Fi base.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I'm having a hard time with this. Supposedly I'm Fe....but it seems like you're implying personal relationships with people don't matter to Fe people......I don't relate to your examples.
    that's because you are dynamic. and Fi is static. personal relationships matter to dynamic Fe's.....but they can't be changed all that much; they're just kinda there. since you're dynamic, your focus is more on the mood and things that have some flow and can be changed.

    with Fi in your unconscious, it's your deeply rooted base; of course it's important, but because it's static, you know that there's not much to be done with it. consciously, that is.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Alright
    Sorry If I offended
    Really wasn't my intent..

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