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    Default Fe... Fi... ?

    Strong Fe: Awareness of how appears to others, consciousness about this (hence the "actor")... able to consciously control how they appear to different people to some extent (or tries to) - concerned with their "image"?

    Weak valued Fe: Has some sense how they appear to others... ? Meh, this isn't working.

    Weak unvalued Fe: Lacks this awareness...

    Strong Fi: Awareness of how well liked by others, and who likes who and how much... able to "manipulate" relations (to some extent) to change how much is liked... Can get others to like them (again, to some extent).

    Weak valued Fi: Concern about how much others do or don't like them because can't quite tell.

    Weak unvalued Fi: Doesn't pay attention or doesn't care how well liked by others??? ????

    My attempted list is failing. Any additions? Or comments of "this list is crap"?

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    That's a good description of Beta view of Fe and Fi, imo. Influenced by Se valuing and Fe blocked with Ni.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat you mean you actually don't realize how you come across to people, that's why you think you can get away with being an ass so much of the time? I'm just sayin.'

    If you are being mean and rubbing people the wrong way and being counterproductive to yourself and to others, how would we handle it then? Treat you like Diana would? How would that be, exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Weak valued Fi: Concern about how much others do or don't like them because can't quite tell.
    I have a concern for both Fi an Fe from your descriptions. And I am insecure in both areas.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Expat you mean you actually don't realize how you come across to people, that's why you think you can get away with being an ass so much of the time? I'm just sayin.'

    If you are being mean and rubbing people the wrong way and being counterproductive to yourself and to others, how would we handle it then? Treat you like Diana would? How would that be, exactly?
    Why are you so sure that "yourself = 'people' "? Who's "we" ?

    Do you really think that everyone shares your view of myself (and of others)?

    So, rather than "people", your question has to be rephrased as "some people", or, more to the point, "people who see things precisely the same way as B&D".

    Since I have no reason - emotional or otherwise - to be concerned as to how I come across to you and to people who think like you, here, on this forum, it's a non-issue. Unfortunately, in professional circumstances, I have to compromise but I do so by being polite as best as I can.

    On the other hand, there are some people, also here, whom I greatly respect, and I am bothered, even upset, when I think I have offended them in any way. But that's a different matter altogether.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Why are you so sure that "yourself = 'people' "? Who's "we" ?

    Do you really think that everyone shares your view of myself (and of others)?

    So, rather than "people", your question has to be rephrased as "some people", or, more to the point, "people who see things precisely the same way as B&D".

    Since I have no reason - emotional or otherwise - to be concerned as to how I come across to you and to people who think like you, here, on this forum, it's a non-issue. Unfortunately, in professional circumstances, I have to compromise but I do so by being polite as best as I can.

    On the other hand, there are some people, also here, whom I greatly respect, and I am bothered, even upset, when I think I have offended them in any way. But that's a different matter altogether.
    +1
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Strong Fe: Awareness of how appears to others, consciousness about this (hence the "actor")... able to consciously control how they appear to different people to some extent (or tries to) - concerned with their "image"?

    Weak valued Fe: Has some sense how they appear to others... ? Meh, this isn't working.

    Weak unvalued Fe: Lacks this awareness...

    Strong Fi: Awareness of how well liked by others, and who likes who and how much... able to "manipulate" relations (to some extent) to change how much is liked... Can get others to like them (again, to some extent).

    Weak valued Fi: Concern about how much others do or don't like them because can't quite tell.

    Weak unvalued Fi: Doesn't pay attention or doesn't care how well liked by others??? ????

    My attempted list is failing. Any additions? Or comments of "this list is crap"?
    I like them. But for Strong Fi it seems more like how an ESFp or ENFp (Fi creative) uses Fi, as they actually do "control, manipulate" it to a large extent. In my experience ISFjs and INFjs don't have this kind of conscious control
    INFp-Ni

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    Do you really think that everyone shares your view of myself (and of others)?
    Of course not, but enough people do for you to take concern.

    Since I have no reason - emotional or otherwise - to be concerned as to how I come across to you and to people who think like you, here, on this forum, it's a non-issue.
    Ah, so you think you get to be an asshole by hiding behind the anonymity of an internet. What a coward.

    On the other hand, there are some people, also here, whom I greatly respect, and I am bothered, even upset, when I think I have offended them in any way. But that's a different matter altogether.
    Yeah just people who agree with everything you say and kiss your ass. No. Backbone. I'm a little different, I love everybody and even allow my friends to disagree with me. =)

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    +1
    lol your jealousy of me is funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Of course not, but enough people do for you to take concern.
    don't be ridiculous. if everyone is to be concerned about what anyone thinks of them, it'll not only be tiring, that person must be retarded.



    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Ah, so you think you get to be an asshole by hiding behind the anonymity of an internet. What a coward.
    that is not the point. the point is that he isn't even close to you, or many people on this fourm/internet. so why should he care



    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Yeah just people who agree with everything you say and kiss your ass. No. Backbone. I'm a little different, I love everybody and even allow my friends to disagree with me. =)
    you're completely misinterpreting what he says. your reply is completely irrelevant
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    ME ME ME BLA BLA BLA
    you think too highly of yourself
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Of course not, but enough people do for you to take concern.
    You go out of your way to ask people for their honest opinion of you - "Please be honest. I won't be offended, blah blah" - then it seems you put the people who don't like how you act on your enemy list. That's childish.

    I've never found Expat to be mean or rude. If he has an issue with someone, he addresses it in a fair and above-board way IMO. I think he's a great addition to this forum.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    that is not the point. the point is that he isn't even close to you, or many people on this fourm/internet. so why should he care
    Because him being a coward is just gonna hurt his own life, that's why. It's about basic respect to people and meeting them halfway; not me 'being his friend.' Heaven knows I don't 'want to get close' to Expat, but when I see people burn bridges for themselves I feel entitled to call them out on their shit. You don't have to be in somebody's close inner circle (or even like them) to give them advice that they need to use. How can you say that's not the point? You can't silence my opinion like that silly. His pathetic attempt at authority (and your advocating his childish behavior) is amusing.

    If he didn't think he needed help or wanted other input or meet different people why did he come on a message board with so many diverse ideas. If he wants to circle jerk with Diana, he can do that privately.

    you think too highly of yourself
    I keep saying, I'm only better than the people I am better than. =)

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    "Please be honest. I won't be offended, blah blah" - then it seems you put the people who don't like how you act on your enemy list. That's childish.
    No, I want Expat and Diana and anybody else to continue to go on and on about what they don't like about me and how I go about things. I think it's great. Never have I been whiny or self-defeating or apology-demanding. I get off on shaking people up and challenging them especially when they think everything is fine and they did no wrong, so stop trying to find a weakness in me where there isn't any.

    Oh well it usually takes something bad to happen to that person before they change their ways, Expat is only human- it will be no different for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    No, I want Expat and Diana and anybody else to continue to go on and on about what they don't like about me and how I go about things.
    all right; i don't like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Expat you mean you actually don't realize how you come across to people, that's why you think you can get away with being an ass so much of the time? I'm just sayin.'

    If you are being mean and rubbing people the wrong way and being counterproductive to yourself and to others, how would we handle it then? Treat you like Diana would? How would that be, exactly?
    lol this sounds a bit hypocritical.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    ... so stop trying to find a weakness in me where there isn't any.
    massive ego?
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    massive ego?
    yeah, now it's just too much...true insecurity shows itself in this kind of delusional grandeur.

    funny and vocal is one thing. unsolicited advice that is not appropriate is another...

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    B&D, you're being completely disrespectful, and you're only embarrassing yourself. Expat's point about Beta values was perfectly legitimate; for what reason you're making it "personal" I don't know. But just stop now, please. For your own sake.

    Going back to Loki's original point, I think that because those who are strong in Fe are also strong in Fi (and vice versa), your points about strong Fi would also be relevant to someone with strong Fe (and vice versa).

    You said that weak, valued Fe means that the individual has some knowledge of how they appear to others, and you seemed to be doubting yourself about it. No, I completely agree with you. As someone with Fe HA, I can see exactly where you're coming from. I've often explained to people that I know what people think of me, but this knowledge is often flawed and incomplete. It certainly isn't as rich as the depth of knowledge that a Fe-skilled individual has.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You said that weak, valued Fe means that the individual has some knowledge of how they appear to others, and you seemed to be doubting yourself about it. No, I completely agree with you. As someone with Fe HA, I can see exactly where you're coming from. I've often explained to people that I know what people think of me, but this knowledge is often flawed and incomplete. It certainly isn't as rich as the depth of knowledge that a Fe-skilled individual has.
    ezra, what do you think the difference is, i mean the depth of knowledge between Fe HA and Fe base?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    ezra, what do you think the difference is, i mean the depth of knowledge between Fe HA and Fe base?
    Haha, there's a huge difference between the knowledge of a Fe base individual of how one comes across to others, and the same knowledge of a Fe HA individual. I think Loki's summarised the differences pretty neatly. Essentially, a Fe base individual has complete knowledge of how they're coming across to another. Why? Because it's they're speciality, as Fe base individuals. Not only do they have acute social awareness, but they're also very adept at being able to understand perceptions of others, probably through a combination of their valued Fe and their unvalued but used Fi (hence the philosophy of using both the extroverted and introverted version of a function in any choice or action you make using that function). Fe HA individuals simply don't have the luxury of this social awareness. Expat mentioned the "pathetic hidden agenda" a few months ago, whereby each type has a function that they believe they're competent in, but when they are, for example, observed by someone who is competent in that function i.e. someone with said function in the ego (or even in the id), they look ridiculous. Take the SLE, since we're talking about Fe types. An SLE will make a social effort to make a joke or be an entertainer, and if they fail (which they very often do), a Fe base individual would be standing there laughing or shaking their head at the SLE's pitiful (a la pathetic) attempts to create a charged emotional atmosphere. They're simply not good at it. Why not? Because their social awareness is comparatively poorer than that of a Fe ego type. The same principle, by the way, can be applied to any other type e.g. swap the SLE's Fe HA for the EIE's Se HA, then see who's laughing.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Haha, there's a huge difference between the knowledge of a Fe base individual of how one comes across to others, and the same knowledge of a Fe HA individual. I think Loki's summarised the differences pretty neatly. Essentially, a Fe base individual has complete knowledge of how they're coming across to another. Why? Because it's they're speciality, as Fe base individuals. Not only do they have acute social awareness, but they're also very adept at being able to understand perceptions of others, probably through a combination of their valued Fe and their unvalued but used Fi (hence the philosophy of using both the extroverted and introverted version of a function in any choice or action you make using that function). Fe HA individuals simply don't have the luxury of this social awareness. Expat mentioned the "pathetic hidden agenda" a few months ago, whereby each type has a function that they believe they're competent in, but when they are, for example, observed by someone who is competent in that function i.e. someone with said function in the ego (or even in the id), they look ridiculous. Take the SLE, since we're talking about Fe types. An SLE will make a social effort to make a joke or be an entertainer, and if they fail (which they very often do), a Fe base individual would be standing there laughing or shaking their head at the SLE's pitiful (a la pathetic) attempts to create a charged emotional atmosphere. They're simply not good at it. Why not? Because their social awareness is comparatively poorer than that of a Fe ego type. The same principle, by the way, can be applied to any other type e.g. swap the SLE's Fe HA for the EIE's Se HA, then see who's laughing.
    thanks, your description of Fe HA is actually more like me. i'm good at "reading" people but not how they are reading me. I try that shit, make jokes and stuff, it's pathetic. My hubby is the one who's good at it. I'm jealous of the ease he makes jokes etc.... I'm the confronter, bulldozer. He's the lighthearted, jokester. I go in and kickass and take care of business while he provides the comic relief to lighten the mood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    thanks, your description of Fe HA is actually more like me. i'm good at "reading" people but not how they are reading me. I try that shit, make jokes and stuff, it's pathetic. My hubby is the one who's good at it. I'm jealous of the ease he makes jokes etc.... I'm the confronter, bulldozer. He's the lighthearted, jokester. I go in and kickass and take care of business while he provides the comic relief to lighten the mood.
    Be aware of confusing the ability to read people with the ability to generate any given emotional atmosphere. SLEs in particular are good at reading people, but they're far worse than Fe base types at being able to process emotional content.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Be aware of confusing the ability to read people with the ability to generate any given emotional atmosphere. SLEs in particular are good at reading people, but they're far worse than Fe base types at being able to process emotional content.
    then i still don't understand.

    i am not good at generating any given emotional atmosphere. maybe that is in comparison to other people i know. my sis, my hubby are MUCH better at it than me. I NEED OTHERS to get that going for me. i've learned much from them over the years, but it's still their natural thing where it is not mine. i don't like it, but my natural thing is to yell "get off your ass, let's go, come on, do it already." i've learned to tone it down and to even be calm sometimes, but it is learned. THAT IS A BIG REASON I ADORE MY HUBBY!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    then i still don't understand.

    i am not good at generating any given emotional atmosphere. maybe that is in comparison to other people i know. my sis, my hubby are MUCH better at it than me. I NEED OTHERS to get that going for me. i've learned much from them over the years, but it's still their natural thing where it is not mine. i don't like it, but my natural thing is to yell "get off your ass, let's go, come on, do it already." i've learned to tone it down and to even be calm sometimes, but it is learned. THAT IS A BIG REASON I ADORE MY HUBBY!!!
    Okay, put it this way. If you are Se ego, you have an ability to read people in the sense of how tough they are, how much willpower they're in possession of, their ability to take certain kinds of pressure (volitional pressure in this sense), amongst other related things. If you're Fe ego, you have the innate capacity to read the emotional situation; that is, how lively or down people are feeling, how much emotional energy people are giving (and can give) off, the overall emotional atmosphere in which you find yourself, and other things relating to external emotion. These are two different ways of "reading" situations and people. Do you understand now?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Fe... Fi... ?
    Fo... Fum... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Okay, put it this way. If you are Se ego, you have an ability to read people in the sense of how tough they are, how much willpower they're in possession of, their ability to take certain kinds of pressure (volitional pressure in this sense), amongst other related things. If you're Fe ego, you have the innate capacity to read the emotional situation; that is, how lively or down people are feeling, how much emotional energy people are giving (and can give) off, the overall emotional atmosphere in which you find yourself, and other things relating to external emotion. These are two different ways of "reading" situations and people. Do you understand now?
    i understand that they are different things. but i do not get which i am better at. i do both.

    no scrap that. i naturally do the Se stuff you said, but what i do do is read the INTERNAL emotions of a person, not the external atmosphere in which i find myself. i do that slightly but i read INDIVIDUALS better than i do atmosphere. Se stuff still seems like a given.

    eh, i think i could interpret all of this too many ways at this point. thanks anyway. let's move on, we've taken over this thread anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Of course not, but enough people do for you to take concern.



    Ah, so you think you get to be an asshole by hiding behind the anonymity of an internet. What a coward.



    Yeah just people who agree with everything you say and kiss your ass. No. Backbone. I'm a little different, I love everybody and even allow my friends to disagree with me. =)
    Fuck off, you pissy, unlikable bitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    I try that shit, make jokes and stuff, it's pathetic. My hubby is the one who's good at it. I'm jealous of the ease he makes jokes etc....
    You are now confusing being funny with strong Fe. Not the same thing at all.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    You are now confusing being funny with strong Fe. Not the same thing at all.
    yeah, i know...that's why i had to drop it in this thread...

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    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I don't understand this "epic" war with Diana and Expat. I don't think there's anything wrong with how they "come across." Bah.

    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    I like them. But for Strong Fi it seems more like how an ESFp or ENFp (Fi creative) uses Fi, as they actually do "control, manipulate" it to a large extent. In my experience ISFjs and INFjs don't have this kind of conscious control
    Agreed. I also think the strong Fe one is more like Fe leading than Fe creative and more like EIE than ESE.

    I think that perhaps image consciousness has to do with Fe and Se...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I've often explained to people that I know what people think of me, but this knowledge is often flawed and incomplete. It certainly isn't as rich as the depth of knowledge that a Fe-skilled individual has.
    I have impressions about what people think of me that I use to help me figure out how to act towards them or when to avoid/approach them, but I don't know really what they actually think of me either. And sometimes I'm just wrong. But Fe is probably what is collecting those impressions to begin with... Actually that's probably why Ti is needed to analyze it to weed out the impressions that are "real" from those that are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama
    eh, i think i could interpret all of this too many ways at this point. thanks anyway. let's move on, we've taken over this thread anyway.
    I didn't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Fo... Fum... ?
    Bah!

  33. #33
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Agreed. I also think the strong Fe one is more like Fe leading than Fe creative and more like EIE than ESE.
    Yeah, those were my thoughts as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    i understand that they are different things. but i do not get which i am better at. i do both.

    no scrap that. i naturally do the Se stuff you said, but what i do do is read the INTERNAL emotions of a person, not the external atmosphere in which i find myself. i do that slightly but i read INDIVIDUALS better than i do atmosphere. Se stuff still seems like a given.
    Yeahhhhh, Fe HA.

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Fuck off, you pissy, unlikable bitch.
    genuine lulz

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Actually that's probably why Ti is needed to analyze it to weed out the impressions that are "real" from those that are not.
    I'm afraid Ti won't help you there. Fe is what deals with impressions, not Ti. You're probably on to something though; Fe egos aren't superhuman individuals who can correctly interpret exactly what everyone feels about them at any given time (just in the same way not every Se ego can correctly estimate the willpower and strength level of everyone). I was a bit too praising of Fe egos.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    yeah, i know...that's why i had to drop it in this thread...
    Maybe, this might be more helpful...

    THAT IS A BIG REASON I ADORE MY HUBBY!!!
    Maybe you should process that. I mean what's your motivation of writing something like that, why you wrote it in that way (all caps, with lot of exclamation marks) etc. That's what I would associate with Fe, although the content has to do with Fi. Maybe that will help you understand what Fe is better.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    No, I want Expat and Diana and anybody else to continue to go on and on about what they don't like about me and how I go about things.
    Fantastic. I find you extremely annoying and GTFO.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Fe... Fi... ?
    Fo... Fum... ?
    LOL
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Fo... Fum... ?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Weak unvalued Fe: Lacks this awareness...
    I think I'm very aware, but in opposition to it. I dislike it, and disdain it somewhat. I feel it shouldn't be the priority it is. It also brings out a certain measure of hypocrisy in me, because while image affects me, I act as though others should 'just ignore' what people think.

    Weak valued Fi: Concern about how much others do or don't like them because can't quite tell.
    This seems more true. I can't quite tell how much people like me, if at all. I assume that most people don't until words or actions signify otherwise. And again, I care what other people think, but I try not to. I would say Fi rejection bothers me less because I am more confident in it.

    It's hard to answer, because I don't usually think of Fe/Fi in these terms. Fi seems more like a subtle support than Fe. Fe is being dragged onstage for karaoke and then being labelled a party-pooper when I don't want to sing, whereas Fi would just buy me an album I really wanted to hear, and then just let me listen to it.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    It's hard to answer, because I don't usually think of Fe/Fi in these terms. Fi seems more like a subtle support than Fe. Fe is being dragged onstage for karaoke and then being labelled a party-pooper when I don't want to sing, whereas Fi would just buy me an album I really wanted to hear, and then just let me listen to it.
    to me, this sounds more like extraverts vs. introverts. I value Fe but I would never drag someone onstage to sing. I'd have to have a couple of drinks before I'd even go on stage myself. I'm much much more likely to buy someone an album I know they'd like and let them listen at their leisure.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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