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Thread: Forced to lead

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    Hypothetically, in a group consisting of an ENFp, ISTp, ENTp and ISFp - who would be the one who would most likely take the organiser/leader role, if it was absolutely necessary that one of them should lead? Which of them would be frustrated by the lack of order, and which types couldn't care less?
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    ENTp.

    ISTps are incapable of giving a shit.

    ISFps are too busy lactating.

    ENFps are just being cute.
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    If there is no defined leader and I feel at least semi-comfortable with the vibes I'm getting from everyone else, I actually make a pretty good leader. This has always surprised me about myself....
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    I'd do it if I got something worthwhile out of it.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    I think in a group like this enneagram will be more important than socionics type. Also, it may depend upon the activity. I don't think any of them would be definitely more likely than the other in the majority of cases.
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    In a business setting I have no problem defering to a leader but I've noticed that I usually tend to become a natural "underground" leader of some sorts. Not in the sense of ursurping those in charge but in the sense of providing leadership and an opportunity for venting to those who are dissatisfied. I generally do this in a way that subtly directs things towards accomplishing the general goals of those in charge.

    When there is chaos I unconsiously seem to take charge for some reason and will wing a purpose (usually one that's determained by a passing whim) when there is none.

    I've never outwardly sought a role as leader, but I recognize these tendencies in myself enough to not be able to truthfully say that. I like being the one who gets what needs to be done done, while being in a lesser position that affords the ability to circumvent the rules that either get in the way or that I don't agree with.

    Socially, when there is a well established leader or purpose that I'm not interrested in I tend to naturally create a non-conflicting yet separate current that does interest me while also attempting to keep it from interfering in the main thing that was going on. The stickam crowd can see/have seen this numerous times, I'm sure, when spoken conversation is a topic I'm not currently interested in and I turn the text chat over to silliness .

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    I'd rank them in this order:

    ENTp - I know I would, although I would put it off as long as I could. I'm great at it though as long as I get enough positive emotions from my followers.

    I've known ENFps to be strong willed, but generally not as interested in leading. Seems like it would be more "I'm doing this, you can follow if you want" with them.

    ISTp I could see leading if they really, really wanted something.

    ISFp...are we leading a search for chocolate chip cookies?
    ILE - Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    In a business setting I have no problem defering to a leader but I've noticed that I usually tend to become a natural "underground" leader of some sorts. Not in the sense of ursurping those in charge but in the sense of providing leadership and an opportunity for venting to those who are dissatisfied. I generally do this in a way that subtly directs things towards accomplishing the general goals of those in charge.

    When there is chaos I unconsiously seem to take charge for some reason and will wing a purpose (usually one that's determained by a passing whim) when there is none.

    I've never outwardly sought a role as leader, but I recognize these tendencies in myself enough to not be able to truthfully say that. I like being the one who gets what needs to be done done, while being in a lesser position that affords the ability to circumvent the rules that either get in the way or that I don't agree with.

    Socially, when there is a well established leader or purpose that I'm not interrested in I tend to naturally create a non-conflicting yet separate current that does interest me while also attempting to keep it from interfering in the main thing that was going on. The stickam crowd can see/have seen this numerous times, I'm sure, when spoken conversation is a topic I'm not currently interested in and I turn the text chat over to silliness .
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    Thanks for the repsonses. (c: I was asking because I'm in a chamber group consisting of those personalities, and I usually end up being the one who tries to create some semblance of order. I was wondering if that would be typical. There's an ISTj that participates on occasion, and when he's there, I relax because he naturally leads. Then I take on the role of mediator which is more comfortable for me.

    I find it quite interesting to observe the group dynamics. The ENTp is often not there, so it's usually just the ENFp, ISTp and me. The ENFp is great about suggesting rehearsal times, but he's always late. So I'm always persuading the ISTp to wait for him rather than leave. During the rehearsal, whenever we stop to go over something or discuss something, it takes an eternity to get going again. Maybe I'll start laughing at some mistake we made, with the intention of getting right back to it ... but the other two seem to take that as me giving up or something - they just start joking and fooling around, and I have to try and get them practicing again. There seems to be more of a black-and-white "work and play" segregration thing for the Deltas, whereas I'd naturally mix the two. I can pretty easily persuade the ENFp that we still need to do a lot of work, but the ISTp thinks it's 'fine' after we've done one good run-over of the piece.

    It's a lot easier when the ENTp is there, because she seems to have the same mentality as me as far as mixing work and play. When I suggest we get back to it, she helps me in getting the others to focus again. Though sometimes the ENFp and her will go off on these tangents - something reminds them of another piece and they'll start working on this random song that's got nothing to do with our rehearsal ... which would be fine except that the ISTp takes this as permission to leave, and I have to persuade him to stay ..... oh the vicious cycle lol.

    When the ISTj is there, it's all good orderwise, but the feeling isn't as great. He leaves no room for fooling around at all. The ENFp and ISTp are always trying to get him to lighten up, and sometimes succeeding, but only for a second or two. He gets annoyed that the ENFp never seems to play the piece the same way twice. He's like "Yeah! That's sounding great! Let's do it again." The ISTp moans - we start, and lo and behold, the ENFp can't remember what he did before that made the ISTj so happy, 'cause he improvises most of the time. lol It's funny - the ENTp seems to annoy the ISTj most of all, because she can blatantly disregard the ISTj's 'orders' ... whereas the ENFp does so with more subtlety. I get annoyed at the ISTj sometimes for being so bossy, but usually I find myself defending him or trying to placate the others, because none of them like the way he takes it upon himself to tell everyone what to do. If the ISTj is extra harsh, the ENFp will get all quiet and sulkily submissive, but then the ISTp gets annoyed, I get annoyed ... a couple of times we've told him to leave. Meh ... then it's up to me to try and persuade him to come back later - the others wouldn't. )c:

    Anyway, I was just curious as to whether the group dynamics I've described sound typical for these types, or whether it sounds like I've mistyped some of them.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    ...
    Last edited by Suomea; 09-27-2008 at 11:56 PM.
    Suomea

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    I'd do it if I got something worthwhile out of it.
    So lack of order generally doesn't bother you unless you're personally invested in the outcome of the project?
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    So lack of order generally doesn't bother you unless you're personally invested in the outcome of the project?
    Exactly.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    I tend to lead stuff. I usually do the "would you all rather do x or y?" thing, but I think I get the group to do stuff pretty easily, while keeping everyone happy.

    But I don't really know if this is related to type. It seems like wanting to lead people would be a separate part of personality.
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    Socionics includes the concept of "ages". Alpha/Childhood, Beta/Teens, Gamma/Adulthood and Delta/Eldery.

    This might seem superfluous but it isn't. It shows the shift from Fe to Fi when it comes to personal goals; or the shift from selfishness to selflessness over the course of a life. It also shows the shift from the posture of doing what is correct (Ti) to the posture of limiting oneself to what is possible (Te).

    In theory ILEs are better suited to be leaders than IEEs due to their stronger Ti and Te, but it is likely that the ILEs will use their abilities to ultimately satisfy their Fe HA; which in rough terms means to be liked. IEEs might be sightly less efficient at many things, but their Te Ha drives them to do what they believe is right, always trying to avoid personal feelings to interfere with the decision process.

    It's just a matter of defining what's more important in leadership: efficiency or proper direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    I tend to lead stuff. I usually do the "would you all rather do x or y?" thing, but I think I get the group to do stuff pretty easily, while keeping everyone happy.

    But I don't really know if this is related to type. It seems like wanting to lead people would be a separate part of personality.
    That's my feelings on it too. There's also the matter of what kind of leadership is being done. Techinically just setting an example is leadership. Then there's the inspiration thing, which very few people seem to be able to do well. (actually a decent amount of people seem to be capable of motivating people on political basis -- the kind that makes for a bad commander-in-chief ("ain't lookin' too much like Lincoln there, George....") -- but only a seldom few can truly speak for a community of people with confidence and skill).

    I actually have a love-hate relation to leadership. I like that it gets things done and gives people a sense of collective purpose; I despise how it tends to elitism and loss of identity by the followers. If one person does all the decision making, then people tend to get lazy and give up parts of their personality to the person making the decisions. Then they can end up loosing sight of themselves completely when the leader begins to correlate his own wants and desires with the collective aims of the group -- this is where a sort of tyranny starts, but the real tragedy is that people tend to let this happen to themselves in exchange for the false sense of security they get from letting the leader have his way. There's nothing wrong with accepting one's own membership in a community... but when you're identifying with France and Louie XIV says "Moi le stat", you're in trouble.

    I think the Iraqis let the same thing happen to them, now that I think about it.... I'd thought Venezuela was headed that way too, but things are looking up down there. Putin thought Russia his bitch and that "it" should do as he said whenever he said it. (major ego trip) I dread that such a thing could actually happen to America....

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    Jem, this group sounds kind of horribly stressful. Everyone's late or leaving or ordering or sulking, right? Hopefully that'll improve. Do you find yourself taking the lead at all? Because I know an ISFp who, despite not liking to lead stuff, does a good job at influencing the group towards fun results.

    LOL about the ENFp and ISTp playing "tangent" music stuff...yeah once it gets shifted over to "relaxed" mode it can be hard to get back on track. This happens to me when I take water breaks in sports. I start talking and then we all forget we're playing some sort of fairly structured game. "Oh right...yeah I guess there's another half? ok. so where did we leave the ball?"


    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    Thanks for the repsonses. (c: I was asking because I'm in a chamber group consisting of those personalities, and I usually end up being the one who tries to create some semblance of order. I was wondering if that would be typical. There's an ISTj that participates on occasion, and when he's there, I relax because he naturally leads. Then I take on the role of mediator which is more comfortable for me.

    I find it quite interesting to observe the group dynamics. The ENTp is often not there, so it's usually just the ENFp, ISTp and me. The ENFp is great about suggesting rehearsal times, but he's always late. So I'm always persuading the ISTp to wait for him rather than leave. During the rehearsal, whenever we stop to go over something or discuss something, it takes an eternity to get going again. Maybe I'll start laughing at some mistake we made, with the intention of getting right back to it ... but the other two seem to take that as me giving up or something - they just start joking and fooling around, and I have to try and get them practicing again. There seems to be more of a black-and-white "work and play" segregration thing for the Deltas, whereas I'd naturally mix the two. I can pretty easily persuade the ENFp that we still need to do a lot of work, but the ISTp thinks it's 'fine' after we've done one good run-over of the piece.

    It's a lot easier when the ENTp is there, because she seems to have the same mentality as me as far as mixing work and play. When I suggest we get back to it, she helps me in getting the others to focus again. Though sometimes the ENFp and her will go off on these tangents - something reminds them of another piece and they'll start working on this random song that's got nothing to do with our rehearsal ... which would be fine except that the ISTp takes this as permission to leave, and I have to persuade him to stay ..... oh the vicious cycle lol.

    When the ISTj is there, it's all good orderwise, but the feeling isn't as great. He leaves no room for fooling around at all. The ENFp and ISTp are always trying to get him to lighten up, and sometimes succeeding, but only for a second or two. He gets annoyed that the ENFp never seems to play the piece the same way twice. He's like "Yeah! That's sounding great! Let's do it again." The ISTp moans - we start, and lo and behold, the ENFp can't remember what he did before that made the ISTj so happy, 'cause he improvises most of the time. lol It's funny - the ENTp seems to annoy the ISTj most of all, because she can blatantly disregard the ISTj's 'orders' ... whereas the ENFp does so with more subtlety. I get annoyed at the ISTj sometimes for being so bossy, but usually I find myself defending him or trying to placate the others, because none of them like the way he takes it upon himself to tell everyone what to do. If the ISTj is extra harsh, the ENFp will get all quiet and sulkily submissive, but then the ISTp gets annoyed, I get annoyed ... a couple of times we've told him to leave. Meh ... then it's up to me to try and persuade him to come back later - the others wouldn't. )c:

    Anyway, I was just curious as to whether the group dynamics I've described sound typical for these types, or whether it sounds like I've mistyped some of them.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Jem, this group sounds kind of horribly stressful. Everyone's late or leaving or ordering or sulking, right? Hopefully that'll improve. Do you find yourself taking the lead at all? Because I know an ISFp who, despite not liking to lead stuff, does a good job at influencing the group towards fun results.
    Oh, we have fun results ... if you know what I mean. lol Yeah, I sort of lead a bit ... but it's tiring and I can't stand it. So I'm going to stop trying and see if another leader emerges from the ruins.

    Starting rehearsals again this week. Can't wait. lol I wouldn't bother with it except it's a compulsary uni subject. We're marked as a group, so it's not enough for me to just concentrate on doing my part well. It's my fault really - because I left the selection process to the last minute, and surprise - there were only slackers and confused people left. So we got together . lol They're pretty talented slackers though. (c: We have some good times ... and we winged it spectacularly for our last exam. lol I was especially surprised at the SLI - I thought he was a lost cause, but he pulled something out of nowhere.
    LOL about the ENFp and ISTp playing "tangent" music stuff...yeah once it gets shifted over to "relaxed" mode it can be hard to get back on track. This happens to me when I take water breaks in sports. I start talking and then we all forget we're playing some sort of fairly structured game. "Oh right...yeah I guess there's another half? ok. so where did we leave the ball?"
    So what do you think about there being a more clearcut thing btwn work and play for Deltas? Do you think that's right?
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    In a business setting I have no problem defering to a leader but I've noticed that I usually tend to become a natural "underground" leader of some sorts. Not in the sense of ursurping those in charge but in the sense of providing leadership and an opportunity for venting to those who are dissatisfied. I generally do this in a way that subtly directs things towards accomplishing the general goals of those in charge.
    That seems to fit the profile of trade union leaders, and I had observed that quite a few are ISFps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    Hypothetically, in a group consisting of an ENFp, ISTp, ENTp and ISFp - who would be the one who would most likely take the organiser/leader role, if it was absolutely necessary that one of them should lead? Which of them would be frustrated by the lack of order, and which types couldn't care less?
    Interesting question. Tough to answer as well. Most likely the ILE. They'd certainly be frustrated by the lack of order (with their Ti creative), but not in the sense that - for example - a Beta ST would be (these types would be frustrated that people weren't mobilised in a group, and so would take charge). SLIs would probably do the best job of it, with their Te practicality and Se ignoring (SEIs have the Se, but not the Te). However, look at Khrushchev. You think he was a good leader? If so, it might interest you to know that he was SEI.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade View Post
    ENTp.

    ISTps are incapable of giving a shit.

    ISFps are too busy lactating.

    ENFps are just being cute.
    You think you're an SLI. Correct?

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