1. ## About my ESFj mother-in-law

I love my mother-in-law. She's really cool, and she's a lot of fun.

But she has this funny quirk. And I just figured out what it's about. I want you folks to tell me if it's weak Ti or weak Te. Of course someone here will say it's some other function, and that's fine, tell me what you think.

Anyway, she never buys enough food. Last year when she was here, she was serving up something, and she gave my husband and my father-in-law plenty of food, herself a fair amount, and me a child-sized portion, and my daughter an empty plate. And then she said, "When my kids were that little, I just fed them off my plate." My daughter was 5 last year, and my mother-in-law had given me the right amount of food for a 5-year-old, so I just gave it all to her. And then my husband split his plate with me. My mother-in-law was horrified that we were still hungry. This was not her intent. She was really bothered that there wasn't enough food. I was offended because I thought she just didn't care if I had enough to eat or something.

Well now I have been shopping with her and I've figured it out. The other day, she was buying chicken breasts, and they come in packs of three here (which seems odd as a chicken has two, but whatever.) She thought three chicken breasts were too many and she should only cook one and a half and save the other one and a half for a future meal. It was just so much food! And I said that the three of us (my husband, daughter, and myself) eat two chicken breasts between us. How many did she and my father-in-law eat? They eat one to one and a half between them. So let's do some simple math here. Will one and a half chicken breasts feed all five of us if the three of us eat two and the two of them eat at least one? This has happened with other food as well, but that example should be enough. Anyway, we cooked all three, and we just barely had enough for all of us.

So the problem is that she has no idea how much food we will all need. She figures she can cook as much as she and my father-in-law generally have, and then add a little bit more for the other three of us. And then if she does that, there isn't enough food for everyone. I think the only reason she finally paid attention to me is that I'm pregnant and I'd lost two pounds between two appointments, and this gave her pause. She doesn't want to starve her impending grandchild. Otherwise, I'm afraid I'd be hungry every night still. It just looks like so much food!

I know you'd think someone with very strong Si would have enough food for everyone, but I think that her weak Te is causing her to not be able to estimate how much food we'll all eat. I could be convinced that it's some Ti logic thing.

Anyway, tell me what you think.

(And sorry I've been gone but I guess I haven't felt like I have much to say.)

2. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Anyway, she never buys enough food. Last year when she was here, she was serving up something, and she gave my husband and my father-in-law plenty of food, herself a fair amount, and me a child-sized portion, and my daughter an empty plate. And then she said, "When my kids were that little, I just fed them off my plate." My daughter was 5 last year, and my mother-in-law had given me the right amount of food for a 5-year-old, so I just gave it all to her. And then my husband split his plate with me. My mother-in-law was horrified that we were still hungry. This was not her intent.
I was wondering if the bolded part has something to do with really weak but valued . Because this is what she did when her kids were little, this is the thing to do when feeding small children: let them eat off your plate... so apply this "rule" or "law" to everyone in every situation.

I don't understand why she would be concerned that you lost 2 lbs in your pregnancy (worries about "her grandchild") but not care if you get enough to eat (like if you weren't pregnant).

3. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I love my mother-in-law. She's really cool, and she's a lot of fun.

But she has this funny quirk. And I just figured out what it's about. I want you folks to tell me if it's weak Ti or weak Te. Of course someone here will say it's some other function, and that's fine, tell me what you think.

Anyway, she never buys enough food. Last year when she was here, she was serving up something, and she gave my husband and my father-in-law plenty of food, herself a fair amount, and me a child-sized portion, and my daughter an empty plate. And then she said, "When my kids were that little, I just fed them off my plate." My daughter was 5 last year, and my mother-in-law had given me the right amount of food for a 5-year-old, so I just gave it all to her. And then my husband split his plate with me. My mother-in-law was horrified that we were still hungry. This was not her intent. She was really bothered that there wasn't enough food. I was offended because I thought she just didn't care if I had enough to eat or something.

Well now I have been shopping with her and I've figured it out. The other day, she was buying chicken breasts, and they come in packs of three here (which seems odd as a chicken has two, but whatever.) She thought three chicken breasts were too many and she should only cook one and a half and save the other one and a half for a future meal. It was just so much food! And I said that the three of us (my husband, daughter, and myself) eat two chicken breasts between us. How many did she and my father-in-law eat? They eat one to one and a half between them. So let's do some simple math here. Will one and a half chicken breasts feed all five of us if the three of us eat two and the two of them eat at least one? This has happened with other food as well, but that example should be enough. Anyway, we cooked all three, and we just barely had enough for all of us.

So the problem is that she has no idea how much food we will all need. She figures she can cook as much as she and my father-in-law generally have, and then add a little bit more for the other three of us. And then if she does that, there isn't enough food for everyone. I think the only reason she finally paid attention to me is that I'm pregnant and I'd lost two pounds between two appointments, and this gave her pause. She doesn't want to starve her impending grandchild. Otherwise, I'm afraid I'd be hungry every night still. It just looks like so much food!

I know you'd think someone with very strong Si would have enough food for everyone, but I think that her weak Te is causing her to not be able to estimate how much food we'll all eat. I could be convinced that it's some Ti logic thing.

Anyway, tell me what you think.

(And sorry I've been gone but I guess I haven't felt like I have much to say.)
it does sound to me like weak Ti, looking for and needing help with the math of it all.

congrats on your pregnancy as well. i like how you sneaked into the story. how far along are you?

4. Originally Posted by dbmmama
congrats on your pregnancy as well. i like how you sneaked into the story. how far along are you?
Thanks to you and glam. I'm not too far along - just 10 weeks.

5. Your assessment seems astute. What type is your father-in-law? Usually an ESE is able to prioritize and readjust such things with the proper input provided by an LII or LSI.

6. Originally Posted by Logos
Your assessment seems astute. What type is your father-in-law? Usually an ESE is able to prioritize and readjust such things with the proper input provided by an LII or LSI.
ISFp. I adore him too. I'm really lucky with my in-laws. Which is good because when they visit they visit for a long time.

7. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
ISFp. I adore him too. I'm really lucky with my in-laws. Which is good because when they visit they visit for a long time.
It is good to hear that you enjoy your in-laws, and makes you rather lucky that you are on good relations with them. I admit that I found your anecdote to be rather amusing, since I've been a similar situation with ESEs before and them not knowing how much to buy. An obvious difference is that I was on-hand (or a phone call away usually) to help them in the matter. Occasionally I am taken aback by some of their questions of "Is this enough?" or "Could we do this?", but I find the amount of care and concern that they put into what appear to be trivial matters to be endearing. While I am not too big of a fan of going out shopping, shopping with an ESE always seems to provide its own sort of entertainment value.

8. Originally Posted by Logos
I admit that I found your anecdote to be rather amusing, since I've been a similar situation with ESEs before and them not knowing how much to buy. An obvious difference is that I was on-hand (or a phone call away usually) to help them in the matter.

9. good to see you, slacker mom

10. Nice to see you back, Slacker Mom. Congrats on the new bun.

11. It's probably a combination of Ni and Te (allocation of resources), not so much Ti.

12. Congratulations (((((c:

This is what bothers me about ESFjs in the long run, especially if they are not very Fe about it (c:

I think it's mainly Ni too, I can't see how it's Te, and weak Ti might have something to do with not having some general guidelines for buying the right amount of food.

IMO what Logos provides is his strong Ni. He's not bothered by the ESFjs' shortcoming because he doesn't value it, much like I find Si polr "endearing".

In the same way, if I understood correctly, once you realized it was bad Ni and not bad Fi or Si, you felt better... who cares about Ni?

13. Hmm, On the other side, there's the ESE who will buy and prepare too much food and push that on everyone to eat so there's no leftovers... Speaking of myself of course.

Congrats on the young'n Slacker Mom.

14. Thanks everyone.

Ok, here's why I see it as Te. Ti is about internalized logic, and Te is about external logic, sometimes called "business logic" although that name can cause confusion. Though this is about allocation of resources really, which has a business edge to it. She has to figure out how many resources to get and how to distribute them. Collection and organization of external objects. It's very much a logic thing, and very external.

15. Originally Posted by cracka
Hmm, On the other side, there's the ESE who will buy and prepare too much food and push that on everyone to eat so there's no leftovers... Speaking of myself of course.
That's really the same thing - not knowing how much stuff to buy. You just err on the other side.

16. Ni and Te are paired with Alpha SFs, and in that there is Ni involved, but the lack of prediction is specific to the collection and organization of external objects, which is very much Te.

17. Uhm that might be right, I'll try to figure out why it doesn't strike me as correct, but even my weak Ni is predicting I'll fail (c:

Anyways, I've seen ESTjs doing something similar, or more often overcompensating like cracka, very often.

18. Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
Uhm that might be right, I'll try to figure out why it doesn't strike me as correct, but even my weak Ni is predicting I'll fail (c:

Anyways, I've seen ESTjs doing something similar, or more often overcompensating like cracka, very often.
Well LSE have Te, but they lack strong Ni. You can use resources or buy efficiently with food (Te) while still lacking the foresight to properly plan for a given amount (Ni). What Slacker Mom and thehotelambush are saying though is that both Te and Ni need to work in conjunction to adequately plan for the appropriate amount, which is what was lacking in her mother-in-law.

19. Originally Posted by Logos
Well LSE have Te, but they lack strong Ni. You can use resources or buy efficiently with food (Te) while still lacking the foresight to properly plan for a given amount (Ni). What Slacker Mom and thehotelambush are saying though is that both Te and Ni need to work in conjunction to adequately plan for the appropriate amount, which is what was lacking in her mother-in-law.
Even looking at this paragraph Te seems to be just stuffed in there to fit the theory: at first (correctly IMO) Ni does something and Te does something else, then Ni+Te do Ni's job together. So I agree that's what they were saying, but I still have the impression Te is redundant and Ni is enough.
I don't see a Te process missing here, I don't see "bad use of resources" or "inefficiency".

I have also often gone food shopping with an INFp, and he never had this problem. I admit one ESTj and one INFp are not enough to generalize.

20. It's strange to see an ESE erring on the side of too little. An ESE I hang out with a lot will routinely buy huge industrial size buckets of frosting, usually throwing away half but insisting that it's great for parties and cheaper.

It does make it pretty obvious why ESE needs Ti though.

21. My ESE husband, like cracka, usually overcompensates.

CONGRATULATIONS! It's good to see you

22. Originally Posted by diljs
It's strange to see an ESE erring on the side of too little. An ESE I hang out with a lot will routinely buy huge industrial size buckets of frosting, usually throwing away half but insisting that it's great for parties and cheaper.
Yeah, this is waaaay more common.

23. Originally Posted by diljs
It's strange to see an ESE erring on the side of too little. An ESE I hang out with a lot will routinely buy huge industrial size buckets of frosting, usually throwing away half but insisting that it's great for parties and cheaper.
Yeah you should see my ESE at Costco. I'm like "you're getting three CASES of granola bars??" and he says "yeah, we like 'em, we'll eat 'em" hahahaha

24. Well, not being able to estimate how much food you'll need is not being able to estimate, whichever way you get it wrong. My husband says his mom does overestimate for parties, but she must mess up the other way when she's just buying dinner.

25. I have the same problem sometimes. (not being able to estimate how much food (or even some other things) I should buy). I can't even estimate how much I need just for myself.

26. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Well, not being able to estimate how much food you'll need is not being able to estimate, whichever way you get it wrong. My husband says his mom does overestimate for parties, but she must mess up the other way when she's just buying dinner.
I don't really see it that way though... I estimate what I'll need, then throw in a bit more due to what I think may make me come up short. I always tend to plan on something unexpected... another person showing up, someone dropping a plate, people wanting to eat a bit more...etc. So, in my case I imagine I do it more "on purpose" than accidentally... so I wouldn't call it "wrong."

27. Originally Posted by cracka
I don't really see it that way though... I estimate what I'll need, then throw in a bit more due to what I think may make me come up short. I always tend to plan on something unexpected... another person showing up, someone dropping a plate, people wanting to eat a bit more...etc. So, in my case I imagine I do it more "on purpose" than accidentally... so I wouldn't call it "wrong."
Yes and that's what she does when she's entertaining company. But this wasn't a case of entertaining company, it was just cooking dinner, but for more people than she generally cooks for. And she was unable to estimate how much she'd need. In your case, and in her case when she's entertaining, the Fe overcompensates for the inability to estimate. But she wasn't entertaining me. She's been here for weeks at this point. We were just eating dinner.

I see it less as inability to predict (Ni) than inability to estimate needed resources (Te), though it is a combination of the two.

28. congrats on the preggers

29. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I love my mother-in-law. She's really cool, and she's a lot of fun.

But she has this funny quirk. And I just figured out what it's about. I want you folks to tell me if it's weak Ti or weak Te. Of course someone here will say it's some other function, and that's fine, tell me what you think.

Anyway, she never buys enough food. Last year when she was here, she was serving up something, and she gave my husband and my father-in-law plenty of food, herself a fair amount, and me a child-sized portion, and my daughter an empty plate. And then she said, "When my kids were that little, I just fed them off my plate." My daughter was 5 last year, and my mother-in-law had given me the right amount of food for a 5-year-old, so I just gave it all to her. And then my husband split his plate with me. My mother-in-law was horrified that we were still hungry. This was not her intent. She was really bothered that there wasn't enough food. I was offended because I thought she just didn't care if I had enough to eat or something.

Well now I have been shopping with her and I've figured it out. The other day, she was buying chicken breasts, and they come in packs of three here (which seems odd as a chicken has two, but whatever.) She thought three chicken breasts were too many and she should only cook one and a half and save the other one and a half for a future meal. It was just so much food! And I said that the three of us (my husband, daughter, and myself) eat two chicken breasts between us. How many did she and my father-in-law eat? They eat one to one and a half between them. So let's do some simple math here. Will one and a half chicken breasts feed all five of us if the three of us eat two and the two of them eat at least one? This has happened with other food as well, but that example should be enough. Anyway, we cooked all three, and we just barely had enough for all of us.

So the problem is that she has no idea how much food we will all need. She figures she can cook as much as she and my father-in-law generally have, and then add a little bit more for the other three of us. And then if she does that, there isn't enough food for everyone. I think the only reason she finally paid attention to me is that I'm pregnant and I'd lost two pounds between two appointments, and this gave her pause. She doesn't want to starve her impending grandchild. Otherwise, I'm afraid I'd be hungry every night still. It just looks like so much food!

I know you'd think someone with very strong Si would have enough food for everyone, but I think that her weak Te is causing her to not be able to estimate how much food we'll all eat. I could be convinced that it's some Ti logic thing.

Anyway, tell me what you think.

(And sorry I've been gone but I guess I haven't felt like I have much to say.)
this is actually kind of funny. my mother is similar (she's an LSE btw). as she and my father have aged, they seem to eat less and less. so then they think that everybody else has the same appetite they do. so they barely make enough food. and, sometimes, my mother cooks food that is on the very edge of freshness or that crosses over into being distinctly not fresh by any stretch of the imagination. lol.

and my parents tend to tell me to parent the way they did also. as in don't give your children too much attention, stuff like that. "we did it this way and it worked better." "i don't know what's gotten into you kids these days, the children have entirely too many toys."

i see it as partly generational. when i was a kid, we were urchins, set free to run the streets and get into trouble. these days, the culture really will not allow that type of parenting. someone would call child protection if i let my kids run free the way that i was allowed to.

and you know my parents are not always wrong. i mean me and my brothers were never overweight as kids...we were skinny. nowadays, kids get fat sitting on the computer and watching TV and you have 9 year old girls getting their periods.

but for what it's worth regarding your mother i would tend to think her behavior with food is partly her age, partly generational, and partly weak foresight in the form of Ni polr.

congrats on the baby too, are you going to find out the gender?

30. my moms on the overcomponsate side... but usually only by a serving or two. My best friend always brings me way too much when I eat at his house. He loves the cookies, brownies, etc... and always forces them on me when I'm over there (well, he doesn't force them, but he always brings twice what he'd eat... and he outweighs me by a good 100 lbs so it feels like it to me )

My ISFp friend is just awful at this though. She's an awsome cook but cooks massive amounts of food and always gives me two or three times what I can eat. She also never remembers to deal with the leftovers after she's done, so they tend to sit on the stove and plates until somebody does the dishes a day or two later and it's become all gross. (ehhh... I have an absolutely horrid story about a half week old quiche crawling with maggots on the inside when I went to do dishes once when we lived together.... *chills*) Her refrigerator is pretty much empty most of the time except for a few quick snack foods like lunch meat and bread. Since she's poor she shops by trying to fit the ingrediants for a meal (that she suddenly gets a craving for and must have) within the \$20 she has available for food (when I go with her I'm her walking calculator or else she has to pick and choose which items to take off when she goes over at the cash register). Then she gets home and wastes half of it like I said above She's also really impulsive when it comes to ordering pizzas... she'll suddenly decide she has to have it and will order twice as much as the people there can possibly eat paying for it out of the dwindling rent money. lol it's a train wreck

31. Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
My ISFp friend is just awful at this though...
Wow, contrasted with my general lack of attention for food and need to gain about 20 pounds, combined with my ability to manage money and remember to put things away (sometimes), we'd make an awesome team.

What about trial and error? Shopping one day gives a clue in how much to buy the next day if you misjuged the first day and then you just continue doing the same thing every day.

It would make sense if it was the first time she had you around or had anyone around at her place or was cooking something new/unusual or you where there for only one day.

But every single time seems really odd to connect to Ni and Te, because basically you just have to do what you did last you where in the same situation. The uncertainty of the situation is gone.

Also welcome back and congrats..

33. Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I see it less as inability to predict (Ni) than inability to estimate needed resources (Te), though it is a combination of the two.
I agree with it, but it can also be understood in another way.

Alpha SFs have Si and Ti as quadra values, and weak and unvalued Te; as well as weak Ti. So they tend to reach "final" conclusions about how things fit in a system (Ti) with the input of what they have experienced themselves (Si).

In other words: after they have reached a conclusion as to how much food is needed for a family dinner, or as to how much food a "child nornally eats", they dislike having to change their conclusion with new information (Te), especially through abstract conception (Ni) of a situation they have had little experience with.

Of course, if she'd make dinner with Slacker Mom's family often enough, the input from "new Si" would eventually overrule the old. It just doesn't happen overnight.

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