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Thread: Bill and Hillary Clinton

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    Default Bill and Hillary Clinton

    This is a real description by a real person about a real couple. It's in a book. I have left out just very few bits which might be too revealing of the couple's identity.

    What do you make of it?

    "Unlike him she's a normal human being, with emotions. She is capable of love and affection and caring and compassion and warmth and empathy in a way that he is simply not. When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino."

    "Her spiritual mysticism -- is an essential characteristic. She doesn't feel all the bumps on the road because she does have a faith -- it's not "Let Go, Let God" because she tries to manipulate the outcome. But I think that she has a piece with herself over the outcome -- that in times of threats that loom in her life, or have loomed and still loom, they are such that if she took all of them very seriously she'd be a wreck. I think that there's a kind of detachment that probably has a spiritual sense".

    "He works in a different way than [she] -- because his is a more creative intelligence. He can take in the world, and put it together in new ways. She takes in the world, and can at times make good decisions, and can see the fault lines and where the fights are. But she can't necessarily create something new out of it, or create a solution where one doesn't necessarily exist, or have the patience to let the decision present itself. She's much more apt to, when she hits a wall, bang her head into it. He'll figure out a way to go around it or jump over it".

    "She's not a creative thinker -- she's not a heavily substantive person. She's not a heavy-duty intellectual. He's much brighter than she is. She's bright, but she's not very bright. She doesn't spend her time like he does worrying about every problem facing the world, and trying to come up with a solution. [ -- ] She has a certain genre of intelligence, which is that of a very effective advocate".

    "He's always talking about books that he either just read or something he read in college. And he'll talk about Thomas Aquinas in the conversation. He'll talk about Erasmus. And he'll talk about Paul Kennedy. [ -- ] It will be a melange, a mosaic -- With her, there are never footprints of anything she's read beyond immediate preparation for her work".

    "She's not supple, flexible, or terribly skillful politically. She's brittle, rigid, with the fragility of iron that cracks when you drop it as opposed to steel, which doesn't."

    "She definitely has a streak of ruthlessness and paranoia [ - - ]. She has enemies. She has an enemies list. She has people she talks to, and people she does not talk to. When she's mad at you she doesn't talk to you for months and months and months. She has a very long shit list. And, she believes in always taking the fight to the other side [ -- ]"

    "In a real sense she is his human face [- - ] She's a real person. I think the big frustration of their marriage is that she's married to the most elusive, withholding, anal-retentive man you can imagine. He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her."

    "I believe it's a relationship in which she is -- addicted to him. And she adores him. She's the best thing that ever happened to him. But he's very elusive and very remote. And when he requires rescue she gets more attention, more affection, more love, more of the caring that I believe she craves from him, and also more power than she otherwise would get."

    [--] "I believe that it's a relationship based on mutual enabling. Because she likes what happens when she rescues him -- I think to extent that he's capable of loving anybody, he loves her. But it's a very limited capability in the first place. I think that he sometimes resents her and shakes under her domination. Sometime he welcomes her and needs her, because he requires her rescuing. And, other times he doesn't think a whole lot about her at all -- "

    "I think if she left him it would be a big blow to him, not in the sense that he'd miss her, but in the sense that he would find unacceptable the image of himself that he'd see in the mirror: the man that [she] left. But he'd get over it, and he would go on".
    I think that for socionics it's a treasure mine, and the author (presumably) knows nothing of socionics.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    my thought was he's ILI; she's SEE.

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    he sounds like an LII. she sounds ESE.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Okay, so one for Alpha, another for Gamma so far.

    You both thought they are duals -- any particular reason to go for duality?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Okay, so one for Alpha, another for Gamma so far.

    You both thought they are duals -- any particular reason to go for duality?
    well i picked up on a mutual meeting of needs and it seemed to have a caretaking flavor with Fe as the main need the ESE meets for LII. the only part that seemed off was the part about said ESE not having political skills. this is not so much true for either ESE or SEE.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    You both thought they are duals -- any particular reason to go for duality?
    good point. I was zeroing in on her dominance of him and rescuing him... how she bangs her head into the wall... how he appreciates her rescuing him.

    but this has all led to a different idea... because when I started reading it about how he's an emotional albino and he can radiate emotions back out... I had been thinking Ti dominance at first (needing Fe).

    now I'm wondering about LII-SEE. he appreciates her rescuing of him, but resents her dominance in part.

    When I read this paragraph alone

    "Unlike him she's a normal human being, with emotions. She is capable of love and affection and caring and compassion and warmth and empathy in a way that he is simply not. When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino."
    I was starting to lean into EIE-LSI, but... the proceeding paragraphs proved otherwise.

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    I thought it sounded more like Aggressor-Victim, since it also mentions him needing to shake off her domination. It sounds like she "takes care of him" more in a than way.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    I was starting to lean into EIE-LSI, but... the proceeding paragraphs proved otherwise.
    Why? How does it prove otherwise?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    But it was these parts of it especially that were making me think ILI...

    But he's very elusive and very remote. And when he requires rescue she gets more attention, more affection, more love, more of the caring that I believe she craves from him, and also more power than she otherwise would get."

    [--] "I believe that it's a relationship based on mutual enabling. Because she likes what happens when she rescues him -- I think to extent that he's capable of loving anybody, he loves her. But it's a very limited capability in the first place. I think that he sometimes resents her and shakes under her domination. Sometime he welcomes her and needs her, because he requires her rescuing. And, other times he doesn't think a whole lot about her at all -- "

    "I think if she left him it would be a big blow to him, not in the sense that he'd miss her, but in the sense that he would find unacceptable the image of himself that he'd see in the mirror: the man that [she] left. But he'd get over it, and he would go on".
    He's so removed... it seems ... so detached... it's not emotional displays that bring him out, but her rescuing of him... ?

    It's weird though because they don't seem happy in this description... like something is missing... or wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    now I'm wondering about LII-SEE. he appreciates her rescuing of him, but resents her dominance in part.
    SEE wouldn't give off Fe though, and what she gives him seems so clearly Fe.

    perhaps she is EIE? still doesn't fully explain the dominance though. but i have seen EIE's act pretty dominant, must be an Se hidden agenda manifesting itself.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Why? How does it prove otherwise?
    I thought he was too good at going around things that are coming to not have strong ... and her tendency to run into the things that are coming head on seemed more (or at least weak ).

    -----------------

    Hmm... I forgot about this part

    "She's not supple, flexible, or terribly skillful politically. She's brittle, rigid, with the fragility of iron that cracks when you drop it as opposed to steel, which doesn't."
    SEE stereotypically is politically skillful. Perhaps she is ESI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    But it was these parts of it especially that were making me think ILI...

    He's so removed... it seems ... so detached... it's not emotional displays that bring him out, but her rescuing of him... ?
    I agree with you on the and needing from her. Also, it's not that he needs from her primarily - according to the author (again, this description is how its author sees them, not necessarily "the truth").


    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's weird though because they don't seem happy in this description... like something is missing... or wrong...
    That's why I wouldn't say duality as first choice.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Here are my thoughts, with parenthetical notes edited in.

    "Unlike him she's a normal human being, with emotions. She is capable of love and affection and caring and compassion and warmth and empathy in a way that he is simply not. When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino." ()

    "Her spiritual mysticism -- is an essential characteristic. She doesn't feel all the bumps on the road because she does have a faith -- it's not "Let Go, Let God" because she tries to manipulate the outcome. But I think that she has a piece with herself over the outcome -- that in times of threats that loom in her life, or have loomed and still loom, they are such that if she took all of them very seriously she'd be a wreck. I think that there's a kind of detachment that probably has a spiritual sense". (I sense elements here, but also some )

    "He works in a different way than [she] -- because his is a more creative intelligence. He can take in the world, and put it together in new ways. () She takes in the world, and can at times make good decisions, and can see the fault lines and where the fights are (I see and here). But she can't necessarily create something new out of it, or create a solution where one doesn't necessarily exist, or have the patience to let the decision present itself (devalued , and the need to concretely see the fruition of something tangible - again). She's much more apt to, when she hits a wall, bang her head into it. He'll figure out a way to go around it or jump over it".

    "She's not a creative thinker -- she's not a heavily substantive person. She's not a heavy-duty intellectual. He's much brighter than she is. She's bright, but she's not very bright. She doesn't spend her time like he does worrying about every problem facing the world, and trying to come up with a solution. [ -- ] She has a certain genre of intelligence, which is that of a very effective advocate".

    "He's always talking about books that he either just read or something he read in college. And he'll talk about Thomas Aquinas in the conversation. He'll talk about Erasmus. And he'll talk about Paul Kennedy. [ -- ] It will be a melange, a mosaic (I wonder how he expresses these things. Is it with a sense of wonder, something just out of reach? Or is it something to provoke conversation with others around him?)-- With her, there are never footprints of anything she's read beyond immediate preparation for her work". (A very present-minded state of mind. What matters is now. I think multiple elements are at play here, with maybe and visible here)

    "She's not supple, flexible, or terribly skillful politically. She's brittle, rigid, with the fragility of iron that cracks when you drop it as opposed to steel, which doesn't." (At this point Gamma sounds pretty good)

    "She definitely has a streak of ruthlessness and paranoia [ - - ]. She has enemies. She has an enemies list. She has people she talks to, and people she does not talk to. When she's mad at you she doesn't talk to you for months and months and months. She has a very long shit list. And, she believes in always taking the fight to the other side [ -- ]" ( + I think)

    "In a real sense she is his human face [- - ] She's a real person. (i.e. he's pie-in-the-sky/head in the clouds which to a Gamma an Alpha would appear this way, I think.) I think the big frustration of their marriage is that she's married to the most elusive, withholding, anal-retentive man you can imagine. He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do (evoking a response by denying emotional response. This sounds like again.) - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her." (This is a different "present" state of mind, but one with being bold with risk and the exhilaration of the unknown, new experience. Taking caution to the wind. Again, multiple elements in play, but this sounds like it's coming from an sort of motivation from him.)

    "I believe it's a relationship in which she is -- addicted to him. And she adores him. She's the best thing that ever happened to him. But he's very elusive and very remote (This sounds more like a desire for the liberating spirit he seems to exude. She's more concerned about the present, the here and now, whereas his seemingly freewheeling carefree sort of attitude is elusive, intoxicating and frustrating). And when he requires rescue she gets more attention, more affection, more love, more of the caring that I believe she craves from him, and also more power than she otherwise would get." (He's acting out of when he is catalyzed by the movement, she's responding out of , the emotional caring and connection she desires.)

    [--] "I believe that it's a relationship based on mutual enabling. Because she likes what happens when she rescues him -- I think to extent that he's capable of loving anybody, he loves her. But it's a very limited capability in the first place. I think that he sometimes resents her and shakes under her domination (Domination. Is this PoLR how it's being described here? A judgement of emotional content?). Sometime he welcomes her and needs her, because he requires her rescuing. And, other times he doesn't think a whole lot about her at all -- " ( running off to the fields.)

    "I think if she left him it would be a big blow to him, not in the sense that he'd miss her, but in the sense that he would find unacceptable the image of himself that he'd see in the mirror: the man that [she] left. But he'd get over it, and he would go on". (The action and consequence defining the man. A bad thing that happens because it was caused by a bad person. But like any other ephemeral thought, this also too shall pass.)
    He's some sort of Alpha and she a Gamma.

    I'd probably say the is dominant for him, so ESFj

    For her, I suppose INTp or ISFj would fit here. I feel like I need more to distinguish the quadra values better.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    My overall impression is ENTp-Ti & INFp-Fe.

    I could also see ENTp-Ti & ESFp-Fi.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    He's some sort of Alpha and she a Gamma.

    I'd probably say the is dominant for him, so ESFj

    For her, I suppose INTp or ISFj would fit here. I feel like I need more to distinguish the quadra values better.
    But does it overall sound as bad as conflict? I agree with most of your analysis, by the way, but not all of it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    But does it overall sound as bad as conflict?
    I don't think so. As I was reading it, conflict didn't seem to fit right for some reason. So, I wouldn't go as far as saying exact conflictors, but I feel confident enough in saying that they are in opposing quadras.
    INFj

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    "She definitely has a streak of ruthlessness and paranoia [ - - ]. She has enemies. She has an enemies list. She has people she talks to, and people she does not talk to. When she's mad at you she doesn't talk to you for months and months and months. She has a very long shit list. And, she believes in always taking the fight to the other side [ -- ]"
    This is a Gamma thing IMO (though EII will not talk to people for months when mad at them either). But I see SEE as being more warm... more outwardly forceful from the beginning... saying they are mad at you flat out (or just being more demonstrative).

    I think she's ESI - he's ILI...

    he's a logical victim; she's an ethical aggressor (she's dominant, possessive, likes to rescue him because it gives her power)... so they both have to be gamma. I think he's too removed, detached, a little too ish and introverted to be LIE.

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    I suppose Extinguishment makes sense though. That sort of fits pretty well, I think.
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    he's a logical victim; she's an ethical aggressor (she's dominant, possessive, likes to rescue him because it gives her power)... so they both have to be gamma. I think he's too removed, detached, a little too ish and introverted to be LIE.
    Why do you think he's logical? Why not an ethical victim?

    @tereg: in my opinion, you spotted a lot of , but in his case, I think it's more important that their interaction seems overal more - .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I don't buy ILI for him, Fe>Fi seeking (or at least valuing) seems almost undoubtedly to me.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    For the woman, I definitely saw ISFj.

    guy, idk I saw some sort of NT.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I don't buy ILI for him, Fe>Fi seeking (or at least valuing)
    Yes, I agree.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I could somehow accept ISFj for her (nothing goes much against), but my best fit for him is still ENTp-Ti which would make them conflicting which I doubt is the case.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I agree with most of your analysis, by the way, but not all of it.
    Me too, Tereg. I thought most of it was excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Why do you think he's logical? Why not an ethical victim?
    One thing about what Tereg said that I sort of "hitched on" and found odd when reading it the first time as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by with Tereg's remark
    I think the big frustration of their marriage is that she's married to the most elusive, withholding, anal-retentive man you can imagine. He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do (evoking a response by denying emotional response. This sounds like again.) - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her."
    When I read this I thought he might be anal-retentive in a sort of way. The elusive and withholding part I saw as .

    But it was the denying affection to get others to do what he wants them to do part that seemed odd. I had sort of read this in this cold way... because the ILI (being PoLR) tries to erase all sign of emotion from their face...

    but to deny affection deliberately... I don't know what that is. Maybe Tereg's right... maybe this is an manipulation.

    But to get back to your question, Expat... I would have a hard time seeing him as Beta NF because he is so emotionless... when alone he feels nothing at all. I think I saw him as this person devoid of most feeling, who can reflect others feelings but cannot produce his own.

    But it is true that this doesn't necessarily mean he cannot be ethical.

    The other part of it that seemed odd was it seemed to say he showers affection on people he doesn't know well! (Not an ILI thing AT ALL). With her, he knows they're set, so he doesn't bother to do this with her, because he doesn't need to secure her. That does seem like a stereotypically IEI thing in a way...

    Though as an IEI myself, I don't relate to it... his coldness towards her... deliberately denying affection... showering people he doesn't know with affection (yuck, too difficult).

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    Also:

    When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino.
    "

    Would anyone describe ILIs (or even LIIs) as "giving emotion back with a tremendous radiance"?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    But to get back to your question, Expat... I would have a hard time seeing him as Beta NF because he is so emotionless... when alone he feels nothing at all. I think I saw him as this person devoid of most feeling, who can reflect others feelings but cannot produce his own.
    Well, that's the author's interpretation. What I think it means is that the author sees the guy reflecting others' emotions intensively, and, by contrast, he seems emotionless when on his own.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Also:

    "

    Would anyone describe ILIs (or even LIIs) as "giving emotion back with a tremendous radiance"?
    Only ethical type I could see is INFp-Ni.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Also:

    "

    Would anyone describe ILIs (or even LIIs) as "giving emotion back with a tremendous radiance"?
    Sometimes with LIIs. LIIs cannot create, read, or successfully manipulate well, but when there is enough that the LII does not have to worry about these tasks, then it becomes easier for the LII to come out of its shell. The LII can also lean back on his faked -role function as a means to deal with the emotional atmosphere.

    Examining the as a Suggestive Function on Wikisocion also supports this idea:
    He can easily fit into a jolly group atmosphere of partying, jokes, and the like, despite otherwise often making an impression of being very "serious". Compared to other "serious" people, the individual seems easily amused in the company of people with strong Extroverted ethics. Although he may seem serious in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial, quietly energetic, and emotionally very warm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Would anyone describe ILIs (or even LIIs) as "giving emotion back with a tremendous radiance"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Well, that's the author's interpretation. What I think it means is that the author sees the guy reflecting others' emotions intensively, and, by contrast, he seems emotionless when on his own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    Only ethical type I could see is INFp-Ni.
    Interesting... I can see this now...

    I do not know why, but I could not see much in that description before.

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    About himself and his wife, the man said,

    I was born at sixteen and I'll always feel I am sixteen. And [she] was born at age forty.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I propose these combinations:

    ILE-SEE;
    IEI-SEE;
    IEI-ESI.

    One of them must be right.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it some more, Alpha NT does sound a bit more likely, though the in him appears strong to me.

    The bit about mutual enabling I find increasingly fascinating.


    [--] "I believe that it's a relationship based on mutual enabling. Because she likes what happens when she rescues him -- I think to extent that he's capable of loving anybody, he loves her. But it's a very limited capability in the first place. I think that he sometimes resents her and shakes under her domination. Sometime he welcomes her and needs her, because he requires her rescuing. And, other times he doesn't think a whole lot about her at all -- "
    She likes what happens when she rescues him (because she gets more attention, more affection, more love, more of the caring that she craves from him) but he seemingly is just out of her reach.

    And then there's the resentment that is being described here. Very intricate in my mind and multi-layered. He deliberately denies emotional affection to illicit a response -- he wants to be stimulated -- yet when he receives the response, it almost appears in this sort of passive-aggressive way. Like he's getting what others thought he was wanting, but he sometimes resents her. And therein lies the elusiveness she feels. She's giving him what she thinks he needs, but then he either sees it as some sort of harsh judgment of his character or is afraid of the possibility of causing something negative or bad to happen -- and as a result withdraws emotionally. Edit: But this does not quench the thirst of the original intent of his -- to create some sort of catalyzing change to stimulate him.

    Very, very interesting to think about.
    INFj

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    So if I look at him as an IEI... then what happens is that he's distant from her until she rescues him, then since she gives him he's much more responsive and affectionate... She likes it when he is affectionate/responsive/feeling towards her... she doesn't like it when he is so cold and distant. But she's addicted to him, and cannot let go. So she has to wait it out. And he strings her along with denying her affection and then giving it again. (When he doesn't do this, then it may not seem that he loves her, and you need to know you are loved in a relationship.)

    But if she is Gamma SF (ESI), what sort of affection does Gamma SF seek?

    I was thinking that ILI comes off as very non-affectionate and non-expressive, but SEE sort of wrangles it out of them, creating a safe space for Fe expression. (ILI's HA is to love... they want to be able to love and express love.)

    I do not know exactly how ESI would (or in what way) want affection or seek it or create it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I do not know why, but I could not see much in that description before.
    Me neither. I think it's probably because it's only kinda mentioned briefly and it isn't pointed out enough nor emphasized. (edit: note: I am referring to Fe ego here. I did see Fe valuing from the start)
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it some more, Alpha NT does sound a bit more likely, though the in him appears strong to me.
    But is that or is that a learned behavior used to try and obtain ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Me neither. I think it's probably because it's only kinda mentioned briefly and it isn't pointed out enough nor emphasized. (edit: note: I am referring to Fe ego here. I did see Fe valuing from the start)
    Well I think this was already something:

    When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino."

    [ - - ]

    He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her."
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    But is that or is that a learned behavior used to try and obtain ?
    It could be that he really longs for it and he really likes what he gets out of it.

    I think that what is probably under the surface farther is the use of to stimulate . In other words... well look at this part.

    "He works in a different way than [she] -- because his is a more creative intelligence. He can take in the world, and put it together in new ways.
    How does he "take in the world"? We get a glimpse of that here:

    "He's always talking about books that he either just read or something he read in college. And he'll talk about Thomas Aquinas in the conversation. He'll talk about Erasmus. And he'll talk about Paul Kennedy. [ -- ] It will be a melange, a mosaic -- With her, there are never footprints of anything she's read beyond immediate preparation for her work".
    Which is why I openly wondered how he described these newly learned things.

    But there seems to be this... longing for more of it. He is looking for people or other external things to stimulate him. How does he accomplish this? How does he get "rescued" from this emptiness?

    "In a real sense she is his human face [- - ] She's a real person. I think the big frustration of their marriage is that she's married to the most elusive, withholding, anal-retentive man you can imagine. He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her."
    Could it be that this response to strangers is a way to ... sort of reel (for lack of a better word) them in? The newness stimulates his mind and wants to absorb what they have to offer. (Edit: Just like he does when he describes to people about something he's read. I think he might want this in return.) Once they have become close and known, then the "reeling in" is unnecessary. They are there. At that point it becomes about extraction rather than attraction.
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    But if she is Gamma SF (ESI), what sort of affection does Gamma SF seek?

    I was thinking that ILI comes off as very non-affectionate and non-expressive, but SEE sort of wrangles it out of them, creating a safe space for Fe expression.

    I do not know exactly how ESI would (or in what way) want affection or seek it or create it.
    The "tragedy" of ESIs is that their dual is the LIE. The LIE-ESI duality seems "robotic" to outsiders, in the sense that they communicate through - and little or . The ESI's inclined to assume that if a person wants to be with the ESI, especially to marry the ESI, and the person says that they love the ESI, that is truthful. The affection and devotion the ESI craves is in what the LIE does and feels, not in outward, "obvious" displays of it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The type of the author would also be interesting.
    In some ways, I would think that would be necessary as a means of assessing the author's particular perceptions of this couple. As Expat said, what is being provided is not necessarily the truth, but an interpretation of the relationship based on the author's perception of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Well I think this was already something:
    When he's with other people, he absorbs their emotion and their energy, and gives it back to them with a tremendous radiance that passes for emotion. It's nothing phony, it's heartfelt at the moment, but it's your feeling coming back to you. When he's alone, he's incapable really of feeling much of anything. He's an emotional albino."

    [ - - ]

    He uses denial of affection as his method of getting people to do what he wants them to do - the ones he's close to - rather than to praise or give affection. It's the strangers he showers everything on -- If he feels that his relationship with you is set, there's nothing to lose -- As he does with her."
    That alone does seem kinda Fe+Ni but the thing is that the author seems to focus on the man's unvalued Fi (more than on his valued and presumably creative (or ego) Fe) which makes it sound like "weak Fi" as well. And that's why I see Fe valuing > Fe seeking > Fe ego.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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