Beta-Delta Quadra Relations and Interaction Examples

[betterthan]

I don't have a problem getting along with Delats. But I really don't like being around them. Sorry. I just don't. I can take my super-ego people, for a short while, we can get along well - same with ENFps, but not at a close distance. There are a lot of things in those two types that I admire, they are awesome people, but our relationships suck.

With INFjs or ESTjs we will have our random moments, where we both think - aww maybe I was wrong about you, but it always goes back to GRRR, the underlying feeling between us is just GRR. We never say it. But we both know it's there, at least I know its in me and in them and I am pretty sure the INFjs know too. But maybe not the ESTjs, because as far as I have seen, everything they assume about people, the opposite is always true.

[dattebayo]

I think especially if they have your dual's temperament (Ej in my case, Ip in yours dattebayo), people from your opposite quadra don't have to be hard to get along with.

hello there hellothere This makes sense with the similarities that is naturally threre, but Would this also regard the Ij's/Ep's?
I'm wondereing because my ESTp sister and I get along REALLY well. She's my best friend, and this has got me wondering (along with Mimosa) if I might be an INFp, but I really don't see this as a possible as I don't get Ni that much

The inter-quadra friction arises between Beta GROUPS and Delta GROUPS. I find a group of Deltas and their mode of interaction confusing, inexplicable and often alienating - I'm sure Deltas feel the same way about a group of Betas. A lot of these conflicting preferences in communication can be mitigated for on the individual one-to-one level simply because what dictates the mode of interaction isn't communication styles alone, but mutual interest and interests.

I actually don't have any problem hanging out with a group of Betas? That said i prefer the freedom I get from being with other Deltas. My ESTp sister, I have noticed, will get restless when with my dad, my brother and me (all Delta) and try to get some group activity going

I don't have a problem getting along with Deltas. But I really don't like being around them. Sorry. I just don't. I can take my super-ego people, for a short while, we can get along well - same with ENFps, but not at a close distance. There are a lot of things in those two types that I admire, they are awesome people, but our relationships suck.

I tend to find the betas I've met irl awesome too. Not nessasarily in a "I like you, let's be best friends" way but more in a "I like how you do things differently from me" kind of way
And now enough with all this interacting, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I am an ISTj-Ti and I am feeling like a shit at the moment. I've got into some fight with my delta parents today. I hate their deltaness at the moment..

my sympathies. But yeah, your dad is probably right

j/k

[lefty]

Two days ago my IEE co-worker had a bad case of the hiccups. He said he'd had them all day when I asked him about it. I then told him that "water is the cure." He assured me that he'd been drinking water all day to no avail, but decided to take my advice anyway. I noticed him picking up a small paper cup (the kind accompanied by water coolers) and told him that he needed a full glass in order for the process to work. He said "okay" and drank a full glass. A minute later, he reapproaches me to tell me that the hiccups were finally gone and that I was right all along.

Does this give me my Si street cred back?

youi're a weirdo. You dont ever have to worry about being without your wierdo creds. lol.

[lefty]

I am an ISTj-Ti and I am feeling like a shit at the moment. I've got into some fight with my delta parents today. I hate their deltaness at the moment.

Fi of INFjs seems like a daunt monster to me these days.

i had to get away from my parents. delta injf mom and her alpha intj husband. absolutely could not get the attention i needed.

[lefty]

I don't have a problem getting along with Delats. But I really don't like being around them. Sorry. I just don't. I can take my super-ego people, for a short while, we can get along well - same with ENFps, but not at a close distance. There are a lot of things in those two types that I admire, they are awesome people, but our relationships suck.

With INFjs or ESTjs we will have our random moments, where we both think - aww maybe I was wrong about you, but it always goes back to GRRR, the underlying feeling between us is just GRR. We never say it. But we both know it's there, at least I know its in me and in them and I am pretty sure the INFjs know too. But maybe not the ESTjs, because as far as I have seen, everything they assume about people, the opposite is always true.

can you put your type in your signature or something?

[lefty]

i think in america we're on the right track having a beta leader coming up, obama, because that's what we need is an ethical enfj type who can also infp heal. we need to face beta types of issues like providing for every type of person and working on the environment. I think when you get to countries like canada and other progressive nations like france and other parts of europe...australia. once beta ideals have been instituted you dont necessarily have the same things going on where we're ruled by the deconstructionist conservatism and libretarian or worse very right wing delta agenda...often waved around by scheming gammas like the outgoing "administration" to their financial ends. when beta ideals are implimented a nation can become a more sustainable and equal opportunity part of the world and even deltas like say in canada can be cool, because the'yre in a society that favors being open and taking care of its citizens. they adjust. when the beta ideals are repressed like they are in this country then progress takes longer and everyone is scared, divided, and screwed.

[duality is cringe]

youi're a weirdo. You dont ever have to worry about being without your wierdo creds. lol.

I agree that I am a rather "off" human being, but I am curious as to why you think I'm weird.

[duality is cringe]

i think in america we're on the right track having a beta leader coming up, obama, because that's what we need is an ethical enfj type who can also infp heal. we need to face beta types of issues like providing for every type of person and working on the environment. I think when you get to countries like canada and other progressive nations like france and other parts of europe...australia. once beta ideals have been instituted you dont necessarily have the same things going on where we're ruled by the deconstructionist conservatism and libretarian or worse very right wing delta agenda...often waved around by scheming gammas like the outgoing "administration" to their financial ends. when beta ideals are implimented a nation can become a more sustainable and equal opportunity part of the world and even deltas like say in canada can be cool, because the'yre in a society that favors being open and taking care of its citizens. they adjust. when the beta ideals are repressed like they are in this country then progress takes longer and everyone is scared, divided, and screwed.

America already has a "beta leader," but whatever.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

when the beta ideals are repressed like they are in this country then progress takes longer and everyone is scared, divided, and screwed.

+5.

That is exactly what is going on right now.

[duality is cringe]

+5.

That is exactly what is going on right now.

Could you please explain what that means to you (beta ideals that are currently repressed in the U.S.)?

[meatburger]

I actually would find it unusual for an IEE to have lots of beta friends. I do think that either they are typed wrong or perhaps you are IEI.

I have had quite a bit of experience with betas.

SLE's we have a mutual respect for each other just as the super ego relationship states. As Deante said earlier i am very impressed with the use of , its like that mysterious thing that i will never have. I know some very cool SLE's. One was the king of my workplace (large bank with over 1000 people, and even the general manager liked him lol, other is my friends brother who was school captian. Whenever i see them, i stand up straigher, talk more confidently, look into their eyes etc etc. It is kind of fun talking in short periods but NEVER do we want to sit down and just chill out with them. Its not happened once.

I was at a work dinner last night and the team leader is an ENFj. Shes really sweet and calls me special and we laugh at each others jokes a lot. Again though, the communication barrier is there and any long conversations just dont really occur. Its short bursts.

ISTj. Haven't identitifed too many (my dad is enough lol). Suffice to say we get on occasionally when we talk about external factors(financial crisis) or i help him with a task around the house. Occasionally he opens up but vary rare. All in all though we can never get very close.

INFp: In a way they are the exception. Ive dated two of them and my two best and only girl friends are INFp. As someone said earlier INFp's get on with anyone though and this helps. We can laugh and feel relatively relaxed with one another, dont get too annoyed. I dont spend much time with them though, only a few hours at a time. I think its likely that delayed periods would end in arguments and annoyance. We can also get bored of each other which is what Starfall was saying. One of these girls and i are currently not talking (she doesn't reply to my smses) and im quite certian im grumpy enough at her to fob her off next time i see her

So to sum up my huge wall of text for tl;dr i would have to say that i doubt i will ever have close friends who are beta. Every relation with them is characterised by short type of communication bursts. I actually greatly respect every member though from a distance.

[Kristiina]

I have seen deltas in beta groups and I've been the beta in delta groups. Both are bad combinations. Friendships like that are possible but I believe that the person will get a whole new perspective when they finally find their own quarda friends to hang out with.

[strrrng]

I have seen deltas in beta groups and I've been the beta in delta groups. Both are bad combinations. Friendships like that are possible but I believe that the person will get a whole new perspective when they finally find their own quarda friends to hang out with.

I get a much different perspective from being around deltas a lot, but it's incredibly refreshing when I can interact with even one beta. I guess it's good in a way that my family is mainly delta, as it fosters growth with functions and appreciation of people outside your quadra, in that regard. But it's pretty annoying and stifling at times. They just seem too complacent, smooth, grounded and boring at times.

[Ritella]

Fi of INFjs seems like a daunt monster to me these days.

I understand that.

I agree with unefille's description. I would also add that how much I like, value, and respect a person is not socionics related. How much I get along with a person whom I like, value, and respect- after lots of different interactions in varying contexts- is usually socionics related.
Socionics comes into play the more interactions you have and in different contexts. And, you actually have to like the person to begin with. There are a lot of INFjs, for example, whom I can't stand.
Basically, I'm going to be "drawn" to a person for non-socionic reasons. And I'll probably stay with the person- over time- for socionic reasons. In that sense, socionics serves as the sort of "deal-breaker."

[Satan]

I get a much different perspective from being around deltas a lot, but it's incredibly refreshing when I can interact with even one beta. I guess it's good in a way that my family is mainly delta, as it fosters growth with functions and appreciation of people outside your quadra, in that regard. But it's pretty annoying and stifling at times. They just seem too complacent, smooth, grounded and boring at times.

start a war!

[UDP]

start a war!

[dattebayo]

starfall, you think I'm IEI? Mimosa said the same thing and had me all confused for a long moment. Then I settled for being a IEE, after some reading of profiles and now this... I'm soo back to confused LOL
Seriously speaking I have to find out what type I am one of these days, heh. Which of my vibes make you think IEI. If you have some specifics I would really want to hear
I haven't come across too many of dinki's posts so I think I'll go lurk on her for a bit

and I think YOU are lucky. Imagine having a wonderful IEE for a sister. Must be like a dream...ahhh...

EDIT: I went and read dinki's 'Why I love you" thread and I don't think I am even near dinki in dinkiness

[dattebayo]

meatburger, I have been thinking this over. Initially I think you are right. Most Beta-Delta relations once u get over the initial stage, will most likely get a bit gritty.
But at the same time I think that any two balanced people, no matter how different, can come through this and end up having as good a relationship as any other independent of type. Seriously, I mean, my brother is a SLI, my sister is a SLE. It doesn't matter whether I'm IEI or IEE, I will still have one great super ego relationship.

[hellothere]

you seem more IEE to me dattebayo... as a possible Fe-Polr I found that post of dinki's to be a bit cringeworthy (though also very sweet), but I haven't felt that with your posts so far at all, despite similar tendencies for emoticon overload

[Sirena]

starfall, you think I'm IEI? Mimosa said the same thing and had me all confused for a long moment. Then I settled for being a IEE, after some reading of profiles and now this... I'm soo back to confused LOL
Seriously speaking I have to find out what type I am one of these days, heh. Which of my vibes make you think IEI. If you have some specifics I would really want to hear
I haven't come across too many of dinki's posts so I think I'll go lurk on her for a bit

and I think YOU are lucky. Imagine having a wonderful IEE for a sister. Must be like a dream...ahhh...

EDIT: I went and read dinki's 'Why I love you" thread and I don't think I am even near dinki in dinkiness

Hey, I'm not entirely sure of your type, but what I do know is that your posts always make me chuckle. You're funny in a cute way.

[dattebayo]

you seem more IEE to me dattebayo... as a possible Fe-Polr I found that post of dinki's to be a bit cringeworthy (though also very sweet), but I haven't felt that with your posts so far at all, despite similar tendencies for emoticon overload

Hey, I'm not entirely sure of your type, but what I do know is that your posts always make me chuckle. You're funny in a cute way.

I didn't necessarily say that I thought you were IEI, I just wouldn't be suprised. I can't say I've really been following your posts, but I don't know, something about your writing style just gave me the 'dinki' vibe, lol. In other words, I think you're cute. (:

heh, you guys are cool This just totally made me smile

[meatburger]

I do agree i actually get a IEE vibe from the little i have seen of you dattebayo. You seem to be a little more hyper than the IEI's which gave me a hint. Just look to who your best friends are they are normally a good indication.

[dattebayo]

yeah, hyper... a lot he he

thanks meatburger. When it comes to really good friends Delta is in the lead, I think. But only just

[strrrng]

My entire immediate family consists of alphas and deltas (but no alpha NTs or ISTps). I essentially loathe the way they conceptualize most things, and am incessantly aggravated by the means in which they go about doing things.

So today I'm downstairs with my Ne-ENFp dad and Fi-ENFp 15-year-old brother. They're fixing a computer (lol @ the deltas fixing something) and I'm browsing t.v. channels. Then down comes my Fe-ISFp sister, in a little approval-seeking pouty cloud of idiocy. As is her person, she diffidently strolls up to my dad and meekly whispers to him about what my 7-year-old Te-ESTj brother has done that "hurt her" (she is 10). I don't even hear the details, but from hearing her tone of voice and knowing her behavioral patterns, I know that this is not a big deal. So, I say insouciantly, "suck it up, jenna...quit tattle-telling, and get over it." Then my dad says some delta righteous crap about how it isn't my "place" to comment and mitigates my poor little sister that it's ok.

What the fuck? Seriously. If we foster these ego-centric, negative behavioral cycles in children out of fear of hurting their feelings or whatever, we're only hurting them in the long run. I sort of saw this as me assessing things based on my Ti 'framework', if you will (general rules that should be upheld regardless of petty personal feelings), and Se 'positions' of things (explicit aspects of a situation which are not up for debate); while my dad did the opposite with Fi and Ne...maybe.

Either way, this type of situation with my family is pervasive and annoying as hell. If you get "hurt," suck it up and move on—and keep your fucking mouth shut because others aren't here to be burdened with your pathetic complaints. You can disagree with me, say I'm cold, etc. But I won't change, because this is the most pragmatic method in my opinion. People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything! And there is no place that I am intrinsically in or obliged to...unless you're dealing with the implicit hierarchy of deltas. ugh.

[Ritella]

this is interesting. i'm glad you posted it.
it's sort of foreign to me. the thing with Deltas is just that we don't like "tattle-tailing" but we do need to sort of "correct injustices." I mean, yeah, maybe what happened to your sister isn't a big deal. But, it's sort of like, then where do you draw the line? And also, if your brother is being an ass, your parents have to make a big deal out of every little thing he does, otherwise he'll grow up to be an ass.
the whole sort of "suck it up" attitude is odd to me because it's like "why?" we're not in some sort of crisis state or war zone. we can and should assume and expect the best in people. there's no reason to make life suckier.

[strrrng]

this is interesting. i'm glad you posted it.
it's sort of foreign to me. the thing with Deltas is just that we don't like "tattle-tailing" but we do need to sort of "correct injustices."

Right, ok. Well, I like to correct injustices too, but I evaluate the actions based on the specific context of the situation, the peoples' motivations, and sort of the effects of the actions within that context. I realize all humans share a general method of evaluating things, but this definitely does pertain to functions. The context of the situation that I assess things through is that of an explicit nature. There is no subjective/emotional connection, and things are parameterized by their interconnecting relationships that create a logically sounds whole; fuck you if you try to turn it into anything else. Then, I assess peoples' actions as disparate, intentional causal chains, and sort of trace the internal steps, gaining a sense of their motivations in that specific context (as it is explicit), which I then use to assess the overall picture. In this case, the situation was not a big deal, my sister was exaggerating, her motivations were egotistical and aimed more at getting approval and having my brother be in trouble than actually making things better (what the fuck does whining gain?). So my assessment was, essentially, 'shut the fuck up and move on'—because there was no conceivable reason why she should have done what she did. To be brief, I imagine the Fi/Te process is completely diametrical. I feel as though the "parameters" would be internally-derived, based on the relationship that existed between the people and not the "rules" of the situation. This, I suppose would reign superior to any internally-gauged sequence of intentional actions, rendering the only causal chains traced as external, gradational things. So, the focus would be more on 'what is the implicit relationship here, and what happened (ostensibly)', as opposed to 'what is the explicit context here and what were the peoples' motivations within this context?' What a beautifully elegant delineation between the Ti/Fe and Fi/Te methods of assessment (Ni/Se and Si/Ne are experiential).

I mean, yeah, maybe what happened to your sister isn't a big deal.

It wasn't. She's lucky I didn't go off on her for being the abject twat that she was.

But, it's sort of like, then where do you draw the line?

It is assessed situationally. This is where Ti/Fe differs from Fi/Te. It seems that with Fi/Te, the relationships are independent of any "context," as they are implicit. That, to me, is arbitrary bullshit. I draw the line when it needs to be drawn—and oh, do I enjoy doing it

And also, if your brother is being an ass, your parents have to make a big deal out of every little thing he does, otherwise he'll grow up to be an ass.

I don't think he was being an ass. To the best of my knowledge, they were engaging in their usual horseplay, and she got a little "hurt." Um, if you decided to engage in the situation, you consigned yourself to the potential consequences that could ensue. Don't cry like a fucktard when they happen. That's like me rollin' down to tha ghetto and complaining when I get robbed (I know, the Fi people, in all of their beautiful gestalt sense of relationships, will now tell me that I am completely wrong, because logically-correlational contextual comparisons don't matter to them).

the whole sort of "suck it up" attitude is odd to me because it's like "why?"

You have to "suck it up" because it is extraneous to assume that you can do otherwise (unless the specific situation allows for it—i.e. an accidental, unwarranted injury).

we're not in some sort of crisis state or war zone.

Yes, we are We just delude ourselves into thinking otherwise most of the time because we have laws and fences and dogs to hide behind. grrr

we can and should assume and expect the best in people.

To me, assuming the best in people is just as flawed as assuming the worst—and both of those are incorrect stances to take. I remain neutral and indifferent to people until they demonstrate who they are to me. It is situational and specific, not some general ethical code I impose onto reality.

there's no reason to make life suckier.

Nor is there any reason to make it better; it is what it is. Implicit assumptions are the downfall of modern ethical codes.

[Rubicon]

You have to "suck it up" because it is extraneous to assume that you can do otherwise (unless the specific situation allows for it—i.e. an accidental, unwarranted injury).

I'm also confused as to why you think she has to "suck it up". Clearly, she doesn't; otherwise, she wouldn't feel she could go to her father to get it sorted out. Maybe she was exaggerating, but regardless ... it just seems kinda pointless to suffer through something when you don't have to. Like playing a martyr. That's more like being a baby imo. There's a needle in my foot, but I'm going to leave it there to make myself tougher. Knock yourself out, but it's a bit insane to expect others to do the same.

[mikemex]

People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything!

From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.

However, you seem to be oblivious to the layers of complexity. Knowing the principles by which simple things work doesn't immediately give you an accurate picture of how the derived system operate. It's like trying to solve medicine issues by throwing away facts about the chemical elements that compose the body.

Above individuality there is a complexity layer where social interaction belongs. In such layer concepts such as sympathy, trust and respect not only exist, but are expected to be given and received. And you'll never be able to understand it in full if you try to solve it through Ti+Se.

[strrrng]

I'm also confused as to why you think she has to "suck it up". Clearly, she doesn't; otherwise, she wouldn't feel she could go to her father to get it sorted out. Maybe she was exaggerating, but regardless ... it just seems kinda pointless to suffer through something when you don't have to. Like playing a martyr. That's more like being a baby imo. There's a needle in my foot, but I'm going to leave it there to make myself tougher. Knock yourself out, but it's a bit insane to expect others to do the same.

She has to "suck it up" because bitching about it to other people does nothing to solve it and only wastes time and energy entertaining a situation that could have ended with her shutting her stupid mouth and moving on. And the whole reason she feels that she can run to daddy for sympathy is the fundamental problem: illusory entitlement to certain treatment from others—bullshit. And she wasn't "suffering" lol, christ; I mentioned how this assessment was situation-specific. As for the needle example, that is a bit different than this, but who knows, I might leave it in my foot, lol. Many a time I deliberately put myself through pain, and subsequently derive pleasure. There's no objectivity here. I don't expect people to volitionally endure pain; nor do I expect them to be able to impose their pain on others for mitigation. See how it's two-sided?

From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.

However, you seem to be oblivious to the layers of complexity. Knowing the principles by which simple things work doesn't immediately give you an accurate picture of how the derived system operate. It's like trying to solve medicine issues by throwing away facts about the chemical elements that compose the body.

Above individuality there is a complexity layer where social interaction belongs. In such layer concepts such as sympathy, trust and respect not only exist, but are expected to be given and received. And you'll never be able to understand it in full if you try to solve it through Ti+Se.

Touche

[Ritella]

Right, ok. Well, I like to correct injustices too, but I evaluate the actions based on the specific context of the situation, the peoples' motivations, and sort of the effects of the actions within that context.

i agree with this. and i do this too.

I realize all humans share a general method of evaluating things, but this definitely does pertain to functions. The context of the situation that I assess things through is that of an explicit nature. There is no subjective/emotional connection, and things are parameterized by their interconnecting relationships that create a logically sounds whole; fuck you if you try to turn it into anything else. Then, I assess peoples' actions as disparate, intentional causal chains, and sort of trace the internal steps, gaining a sense of their motivations in that specific context (as it is explicit), which I then use to assess the overall picture.

but this is not how i go about it. sounds very foreign to me.

In this case, the situation was not a big deal, my sister was exaggerating, her motivations were egotistical and aimed more at getting approval and having my brother be in trouble than actually making things better (what the fuck does whining gain?). So my assessment was, essentially, 'shut the fuck up and move on'—because there was no conceivable reason why she should have done what she did.

if i thought those were her motivations, then i would have had the same reaction. but a little less "shut the fuck up."

To be brief, I imagine the Fi/Te process is completely diametrical. I feel as though the "parameters" would be internally-derived, based on the relationship that existed between the people and not the "rules" of the situation. This, I suppose would reign superior to any internally-gauged sequence of intentional actions, rendering the only causal chains traced as external, gradational things. So, the focus would be more on 'what is the implicit relationship here, and what happened (ostensibly)', as opposed to 'what is the explicit context here and what were the peoples' motivations within this context?' What a beautifully elegant delineation between the Ti/Fe and Fi/Te methods of assessment (Ni/Se and Si/Ne are experiential).

i'm pretty sure that i consider both of these things. there are in the moment/situational "wrongs" and then there are more over-arching patterns of "wrong." So like it's possible that I would have thought that you're brother was being a shithead to your sister, but also that (from past experience) she likes to get him into trouble. In which case, they're both wrong.

I don't think he was being an ass. To the best of my knowledge, they were engaging in their usual horseplay, and she got a little "hurt." Um, if you decided to engage in the situation, you consigned yourself to the potential consequences that could ensue. Don't cry like a fucktard when they happen. That's like me rollin' down to tha ghetto and complaining when I get robbed (I know, the Fi people, in all of their beautiful gestalt sense of relationships, will now tell me that I am completely wrong, because logically-correlational contextual comparisons don't matter to them).

if this is true, then i agree with you. like, it's okay for her to complain when she ends up being the victim? but had she ended up hurting him, would she have inculpated herself? please.

From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.

i agree with this. i would say that people don't owe you anything; and you definitely shouldn't expect it. but, there's still things that need to be considered "unjustified" in certain contexts, and by a neutral moderating party.

[strrrng]

if this is true, then i agree with you. like, it's okay for her to complain when she ends up being the victim? but had she ended up hurting him, would she have inculpated herself? please.

Bingo. It's all about her little ego (or big). She wants socio-emotional control over people (okay, definitely tied to her over-arching patterns, lol), and will bend means to accomplish this. I wanted to curtail that annoyingly manipulative cycle—at least when it was utilized in my presence. If you're gonna manipulate people, at least be good at it. But crying like a histrionic retard, clearly veiling your self-serving motivations, will get you a nice 'shut the fuck up' from yours truly

[Rubicon]

Many a time I deliberately put myself through pain, and subsequently derive pleasure.

lunatic :-p

There's no objectivity here. I don't expect people to volitionally endure pain; nor do I expect them to be able to impose their pain on others for mitigation. See how it's two-sided?

That may be your personal modus operandi ... but I don't see why you think others should be made to feel inferior for acting differently ... especially being that your reasoning doesn't make sense. You don't expect someone to have to willingly endure pain - ok, then what's this arbitrarily-selected boundary concerning what lengths you can go to remove the pain? Who says we must all deal with our problems on our own, as self-sufficient units? If that works for you - great ... but what reasons can you give regarding why that method is superior? Are medals going to be given out to those who develop their own emotion-recycling system? Some people like being "imposed" upon. Perhaps they can diffuse the other person's pain, and remain unaffected. So it's win/win. I think you're just projecting your desires on others. You don't want others coming to you looking to resolve their problems, so you condemn them when they do it to other people. Well, consider that a lot of people wouldn't feel like they're being imposed on when someone comes to them for help. They may like being turned to for help. So I don't see how it concerns you, unless you're the person being "imposed" upon.

[strrrng]

lunatic :-p

lol fun

That may be your personal modus operandi ... but I don't see why you think others should be made to feel inferior for acting differently ... especially being that your reasoning doesn't make sense. You don't expect someone to have to willingly endure pain - ok, then what's this arbitrarily-selected boundary concerning what lengths you can go to remove the pain?

I don't think there's a boundary; just that, essentially, we are self-sufficient, and that this threshold shouldn't be crossed unless the situation really calls for it.

Who says we must all deal with our problems on our own, as self-sufficient units?

It's sort of implicit, as assuming anything else is extraneous.

If that works for you - great ... but what reasons can you give regarding why that method is superior?

It's not superior; it is what it is.

Are medals going to be given out to those who develop their own emotion-recycling system?

Nope, just a feeling of self-confidence and an elimination of illusory insecurities and whatnot.

Some people like being "imposed" upon. Perhaps they can diffuse the other person's pain, and remain unaffected.

I agree. I frequently am in this role, and enjoy it very much. I will always be there for those close to me when they really need help, but at the same time I feel as though I'm burdening others when I ask for help. I guess there could be some division between people, in regards to when they feel this way—when they're imposing or being imposed upon.

So it's win/win. I think you're just projecting your desires on others. You don't want others coming to you looking to resolve their problems, so you condemn them when they do it to other people.

I don't mind people asking for help; it's just that when they unnecessarily prioritize this over helping themselves, I get annoyed.

Well, consider that a lot of people wouldn't feel like they're being imposed on when someone comes to them for help. They may like being turned to for help

Sure.

So I don't see how it concerns you, unless you're the person being "imposed" upon.

I guess it doesn't/didn't directly. I just think people would be a lot better off if they maximized self-sufficiency (to the degree which they were capable of) and stopped wasting time depending on others when they didn't need to. We can't be weak as a people. Gah, I sound like some deranged 8.

[timo]

My entire immediate family consists of alphas and deltas (but no alpha NTs or ISTps). I essentially loathe the way they conceptualize most things, and am incessantly aggravated by the means in which they go about doing things.

So today I'm downstairs with my Ne-ENFp dad and Fi-ENFp 15-year-old brother. They're fixing a computer (lol @ the deltas fixing something) and I'm browsing t.v. channels. Then down comes my Fe-ISFp sister, in a little approval-seeking pouty cloud of idiocy. As is her person, she diffidently strolls up to my dad and meekly whispers to him about what my 7-year-old Te-ESTj brother has done that "hurt her" (she is 10). I don't even hear the details, but from hearing her tone of voice and knowing her behavioral patterns, I know that this is not a big deal. So, I say insouciantly, "suck it up, jenna...quit tattle-telling, and get over it." Then my dad says some delta righteous crap about how it isn't my "place" to comment and mitigates my poor little sister that it's ok.

What the fuck? Seriously. If we foster these ego-centric, negative behavioral cycles in children out of fear of hurting their feelings or whatever, we're only hurting them in the long run. I sort of saw this as me assessing things based on my Ti 'framework', if you will (general rules that should be upheld regardless of petty personal feelings), and Se 'positions' of things (explicit aspects of a situation which are not up for debate); while my dad did the opposite with Fi and Ne...maybe.

Either way, this type of situation with my family is pervasive and annoying as hell. If you get "hurt," suck it up and move on—and keep your fucking mouth shut because others aren't here to be burdened with your pathetic complaints. You can disagree with me, say I'm cold, etc. But I won't change, because this is the most pragmatic method in my opinion. People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything! And there is no place that I am intrinsically in or obliged to...unless you're dealing with the implicit hierarchy of deltas. ugh.

Your sister won the confrontation with simple tears. You were in it to win but your sister was a better strategist. Yeah it's pretty easy to blame your familly for their different values. Suck it up, there's nothing more pathetic than reading an emotional justification for a faulty belief structure. If you're smart you'll delete every post you made in this thread.

Timo Jansen

[Rubicon]

I don't think there's a boundary; just that, essentially, we are self-sufficient, and that this threshold shouldn't be crossed unless the situation really calls for it.

I think it makes more sense to become self-sufficient when you need to be, and not to waste time preparing for a famine that may never come. I'd add something about "living in the present", but that would likely offend your delicate Ni.

It's not superior; it is what it is.

Nah. Just in your head. :-p

I agree. I frequently am in this role, and enjoy it very much. I will always be there for those close to me when they really need help, but at the same time I feel as though I'm burdening others when I ask for help. I guess there could be some division between people, in regards to when they feel this way—when they're imposing or being imposed upon.

Yeah - I don't like imposing on people either. I tend to get more attached to people the more I do for them, but less attached to people the more they do for me. I just start to feel like I'm using them. Maybe it's the opposite for other people.

[strrrng]

Your sister won the confrontation with simple tears. You were in it to win but your sister was a better strategist. Yeah it's pretty easy to blame your familly for their different values. Suck it up, there's nothing more pathetic than reading an emotional justification for a faulty belief structure. If you're smart you'll delete every post you made in this thread.

Timo Jansen

I wasn't trying to "win" anything; a situation occurred and I responded—exigently, I might add. And I'm not "blaming" anyone; just expressing frustration at the way the situation played out. It wasn't a matter of reading an emotion for a belief structure; I know my sister's behavioral pattern, so the emotion was just a microcosm of it. Now fuck off, you ignorant clown.

I think it makes more sense to become self-sufficient when you need to be, and not to waste time preparing for a famine that may never come. I'd add something about "living in the present", but that would likely offend your delicate Ni.
Nah. Just in your head. :-p

lol

Yeah - I don't like imposing on people either. I tend to get more attached to people the more I do for them, but less attached to people the more they do for me. I just start to feel like I'm using them. Maybe it's the opposite for other people.

hmm...I may get attached to someone if I am supporting them in a substantial way, but if they're just dependent on me for some feeling of well-being, I get repulsed. I am here to help someone if they need it, but I wouldn't want them to 'give themselves' to me in such a self-defeating manner; I don't deserve that responsibility :d And yeah, if I see someone is constantly 'doing things' for me, I tend to move away from them, cause it's like, "I don't need you, are you trying to control me?" or something. But if someone is there to help me when I really need it, I will probably get more attached to them—especially if they do it out of their own volition, or notice the problem without me having to say anything. That is someone special. I think a real friend should always be that way; the rest of people can fuck off. And it's not some better/worse thing; you will just always have a very uncanny connection with a few people, which will pervade all interaction and precede any superficial 'agreements' and whatnot. Consummate, intense connection with someone is all I want; the rest of shit seems like a load of superfluous bunk. I think it's why I tend to value people and relationships so little on a general level; not because I disvalue people, but because the only type of interaction I truly feel is one where I lose myself in the other person, 'complete me' by 'attaining them' sort of thing.

[timo]

I wasn't trying to "win" anything; a situation occurred and I responded—exigently, I might add.

More like annoyingly.

And I'm not "blaming" anyone; just expressing frustration at the way the situation played out. It wasn't a matter of reading an emotion for a belief structure; I know my sister's behavioral pattern, so the emotion was just a microcosm of it.

Ugh. Get over yourself.

Now fuck off, you ignorant clown.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Timo Jansen

[strrrng]

More like annoyingly.



Ugh. Get over yourself.



Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Timo Jansen

lmfao

[JRiddy]

More like annoyingly.



Ugh. Get over yourself.



Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Timo Jansen

How's Kansas?

[strrrng]

How's Kansas?

I heard the moon crickets are coming in at the highest volume in recorded history. Bob told me. Or maybe it was devil.