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Thread: When Duals seem Conflicting and Social Position

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    Default When Duals seem Conflicting and Social Position

    I just noticed something... tell me if I'm wrong or not.

    If your Dual is higher up on the social ladder than you are or is in a position of authority, these relations will seem conflicting instead. You will not feel the magical, lovey dovey dual feelings - in fact it will be the opposite. In order for duals to be actualized, both parties have to be on equal social footing. For example, one of my science professors (who is an INTj) got into frequent clashes with some of the ESFj students. I just don't think this would happen at all if they were both students (or both teachers). And it seems to be true. The ESFj and INTj students ignore each other in public social situations just like most duals do.

    I think there's a reason for this. Since duals cover up your weaknesses so well, I just think that this will seem too condescending if they in obvious control over your future in some way. (Whereas, your Identical or Activity or maybe even Mirror would probably be better suited as a person that has power over you) But if they can help cover for you in a more subtle way then that's when the Dual power really seems to shine. This just can't happen if they are in a position of authority over you.

    I'm just saying, things seem to work best when they are undercover and there seems to be some mystery to them. Things appear too obvious and cartoony (instead of natural and more organic) when you create a power difference. Your neurosis (neurosises?) can't be cured in this power imbalance.

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    I think that this is partially true, yes, but we also have to make it a function of the level of health. Healthy duals that are your "boss" or "teacher" will make you flourish, whereas unhealthy duals that are your "boss" or "teacher" might cause clashes.

    I do think, though, that the cause is not only the one you mention, but also its simmetric: namely that being that I am the dual of somebody that is in a position of power over me, and thus I naturally cover (and perhaps a bit expose, to other subordinates) their weaknesses, they might feel threatened.
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    It varies greatly, but I would guess no more than any other dual relation. I've had an ESE teacher who was a complete ditz (oblivious to intellectual stimuli), so she never really got where I was coming from - although she was always very helpful and accepting. On the other hand, I also had an ESE teacher who was overall a fantastic person, not terribly smart, but we got along great, even to the point where it was a little distracting...

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    I think this makes sense because "you" can appear rather like your quasi-identical (your dual's conflictor) on a superficial level. As such if you're in an environment with a hierarchy (like a work environment) where interactions are fairly superficial... you sort of flaunt being weak in the same IM elements that your quasi-identical is weak in. If you and your dual were in a less superficial environment, the tension could play itself out into a good relationship... but as long as distance is there, it might have a conflicting sort of tension to it that doesn't play out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    If your Dual is higher up on the social ladder than you are or is in a position of authority, these relations will seem conflicting instead.
    Absolutely.
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    If the appearance of conflicting relations can occur in positions in which the dual is exerting themselves from a higher position of authority, then I cannot help but wonder about people reporting parental figures as conflictors.

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    I think that "duality gone wrong" can be the most destructive relationship psychologically, for some of the reasons B&D pointed out - that is, knowing each others' weaknesses.

    I don't agree, though, that this is more bound to happen in relationships where one has authority over the other, necessarily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I think that "duality gone wrong" can be the most destructive relationship psychologically, for some of the reasons B&D pointed out - that is, knowing each others' weaknesses.

    I don't agree, though, that this is more bound to happen in relationships where one has authority over the other, necessarily.
    Of course not, but when there are imbalances of authority, that can add an extra level of "stress" to further imbalance the relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Of course not, but when there are imbalances of authority, that can add an extra level of "stress" to further imbalance the relationship.
    Fair enough.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think this is more a matter of politics than type relations, although certainly the wounds may run deeper due to the mutual awareness of the other's weakness.

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    I had an ENTj boss for about a year, and he and I got along wonderfully, without any problems whatsoever. If he weren't six years older than me in addition to being my boss, we could easily have been best friends.

    I've never really thought about it, but yeah, I guess it makes a lot of sense that duals could be in such powerful positions over each other if the circumstances are right.

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    I worked over 3 years in close cooperation with an ISFj female clerk. I wasn't her boss, but I was senior to her in rank I guess. On the other hand, she was some 10 years older. It worked perfectly. No friction and no problems whatsoever. Just perfect, mutual trust.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I worked over 3 years in close cooperation with an ISFj female clerk. I wasn't her boss, but I was senior to her in rank I guess. On the other hand, she was some 10 years older. It worked perfectly. No friction and no problems whatsoever. Just perfect, mutual trust.
    My boss was so used to putting up with bullshit that once he realized that I was always on time and willing to work lots of extra hours, he would always come to me first to cover for people and to do special projects. It worked great because he was very efficient when it came to remembering everything I had done, (which made me feel like I wasn't completely wasting my time) so I would end up getting uncommonly large raises for something that not everyone would appreciate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I haven't had nor observed any problems like that.

    I have two ISTps at work, and I'm their senior in rank, one of them being my assistant. Both are men, and older than me, so I could have had a hard time with them, but our relations are really peaceful. I definitely appreciate them, I'm very satisfied with their work, and they always do their best to accomplish what I tell them to do - always delivering better results than I expected. And best of it all, I think they like me.
    This is so nice Sounds like you have an awesome work environment.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    I have an ENFps boss at work. We resolve every conflict in bed. We conflict a lot so we can dualize as much as we can.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I have an ENFps boss at work. We resolve every conflict in bed. We conflict a lot so we can dualize as much as we can.
    Talk about job satisfaction.

    I don't think i've ever had an ENFp boss. I might have an ENFp worker who's above me but she isn't my "boss". We get along rather well.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    I don't think i've ever had an ENFp boss. I might have an ENFp worker who's above me but she isn't my "boss". We get along rather well.
    I 'll never work "under" someone. If someone is leading it 'd be me.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I 'll never work "under" someone. If someone is leading it 'd be me.
    Yeah, my real boss hardly talks to me so it's really like i'm doing my own shit
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Actually that's what I thought as well when I wrote those words. My colleagues are great!

    The truth however is that I'm totally fed up with my boss and his constant complaints about my "personality". I think I've banged my head hard against that famous glass ceiling... I can't see any other reasons for him to complain, and trust me, I have searched my soul. My results are better than any of my colleague's, even more senior ones, I'm always trying to be polite and nice and I have no enemies (that I know of), so it's all in his head. He just had to justify why he didn't give me the promotion his boss wanted for me. (I would have ended up at the same level as my current boss. He couldn't handle it, and felt the need to stop my promotion. He managed, and now there is all those reports written about why I shouldn't be promoted. It's so stressful, and it's so not fair. But what can I do?)
    SLIs make shitty bosses. With all their shit about "do not take things personally" they can justify almost anything. How things between two person can't be personal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Oh. By boss is not SLI, my assistants is. My boss i ESE.
    Just jogged my memmory....You wouldn't believe how many times i have witnessed an ESE boss giving orders to an SLI employee....and putting extra supervisory pressure on him. It's as if they hand pick these Employees to be able to show them they are in control...hahhh....i sometimes don't know whether to be disgusted by this or amused.

    EDIT: given that i am supposedly ENFp..i'll say more disgusted as to why it's taking place (The ISTp will seldom fight back in this scenario...at least that's what it looks like on the surface)
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    Yeah. In many ways I'm scared to know my dual. Even though I know it makes sense it's the best/most ideal relationship; the fact that they can really know my *true* weaknesses, which means yes they can be a perfect saint that protects me from them or likewise they can be a nasty bitch and know what I really need and use it against me/say something that I can't possibly defend against no matter how hard I try because they're hitting a sweet spot, or to further their own agenda and nothing else.

    So I think in true duals there is a way to actually recognize your dual's weaknesses without realizing them. You know what I mean? So it can seem real, effective and erotic instead of silly and too hallmark-ish... or something. And that way they seem the most attractive too, and not vain- because they just did something for you without realizing how special it is. So there's that 'wow' factor without getting so caught up in emotions that you can't get anything productive done.

    So really *knowing* your weaknesses sounds more like an Identical relationship gone wrong but I don't know though.

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    When Duals seem Conflicting...

    They're probably Identity partners. The table on Rick's site explains it pretty well. Essentially, you understand them and they you, but because they're in a higher position, you're thinking "what the fuck? Why are they superior to me? I must also be as good as them", and either you strive to be as good as them, or you hold feelings of content against their position, wondering why they are up there and you are not when you're exactly the same kind of people. It's an injustice to you, especially if you're a Beta. Basically, you dig the hierarchy, but need to maintain top position. If some dick who thinks he's you comes along and pwnz you, you're not going to be happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    If your Dual is higher up on the social ladder than you are or is in a position of authority, these relations will seem conflicting instead. You will not feel the magical, lovey dovey dual feelings - in fact it will be the opposite. In order for duals to be actualized, both parties have to be on equal social footing. For example, one of my science professors (who is an INTj) got into frequent clashes with some of the ESFj students. I just don't think this would happen at all if they were both students (or both teachers). And it seems to be true. The ESFj and INTj students ignore each other in public social situations just like most duals do.
    I'd say duality based on one individual being in a position of authority and the other being subordinate could create some ideal sexual scenarios:

    Beta NF: Do me like a fucking bitch!

    Beta ST: Bitch, you think you're in power? Subordinate THIS!
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I'd say duality based on one individual being in a position of authority and the other being subordinate could create some ideal sexual scenarios:

    Beta NF: Do me like a fucking bitch!

    Beta ST: Bitch, you think you're in power? Subordinate THIS!
    Heh. I don't know. I think in a truly healthy relationship that can't happen. I think it's immoral/wrong for teachers to fuck their students so to speak. I was talking about an *actual* power difference not a dominant/submissive thing. Because a lot of dominant people have no power whatsoever, and a lot of submissive people have tons and tons of power. *shrug* I meant real social power in the real world.

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    Then you're asking the wrong guy I'm afraid. I'm about as socially powerful as Bill Clinton was after that Lewinski chick sucked him off.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Haha. But I love you anyway.

    I actually DID get a blowjob few weeks ago! It was.... okay.

    I think I'll write a book for teenage boys called 'Your First Blowjob: What to expect and what not to expect so you don't over-idealize the situation and kill yourself.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Haha. But I love you anyway.

    I actually DID get a blowjob few weeks ago! It was.... okay.

    I think I'll write a book for teenage boys called 'Your First Blowjob: What to expect and what not to expect so you don't over-idealize the situation and kill yourself.'
    Guys don't need books about getting a blowjob. They need to watch reels of video footage of overly made-up girls with extraordinarily low self-esteem demeaning themselves with the most sordid of affairs.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    That just appeals to the visual senses. The way you make it sound so dirty and hot but I doubt its as simple as the girls having low self-esteem.

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    I dunno, B&D... I've seen some pretty low self-esteem ridden girls in my time.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I just noticed something... tell me if I'm wrong or not.

    If your Dual is higher up on the social ladder than you are or is in a position of authority, these relations will seem conflicting instead. You will not feel the magical, lovey dovey dual feelings - in fact it will be the opposite. In order for duals to be actualized, both parties have to be on equal social footing. For example, one of my science professors (who is an INTj) got into frequent clashes with some of the ESFj students. I just don't think this would happen at all if they were both students (or both teachers). And it seems to be true. The ESFj and INTj students ignore each other in public social situations just like most duals do.

    I think there's a reason for this. Since duals cover up your weaknesses so well, I just think that this will seem too condescending if they in obvious control over your future in some way. (Whereas, your Identical or Activity or maybe even Mirror would probably be better suited as a person that has power over you) But if they can help cover for you in a more subtle way then that's when the Dual power really seems to shine. This just can't happen if they are in a position of authority over you.

    I'm just saying, things seem to work best when they are undercover and there seems to be some mystery to them. Things appear too obvious and cartoony (instead of natural and more organic) when you create a power difference. Your neurosis (neurosises?) can't be cured in this power imbalance.
    i have not noticed this. as a matter of fact, the duals that i've seen who work together in a hierarchical structure are a powerful team. i'm thinking of an entj/isfj team...the entj is higher up than the isfj.

    i have supervised all kinds of types in the last 10 years. including semi-duals, my supervisors, conflicts, beneficiaries, illusionaries, activities, and perhaps one dual. the hardest is conflict when you are the work supervisor. i have to proceed very very carefully in such a relationship.

    ILE

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