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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default Subtypes

    I know that some people get confused about how we arrive at the subtypes, so I'll explain them. Consider the ENTp-Ti subtype and the INTj-Ne subtype:

    ENTp-Ti:
    (Victor Gulenko) Self-centred and pensive. Their ideas do not have direct connection with reality, for example philosophy, religion, bioenergetics etc. Their favourite occupation is comparing different logical systems. A type of office scientist. A very slim figure is characteristic for them. Angular in their movements, does not pay attention to external appearance, worry little about their health.

    INTj-Ne:
    (Victor Gulenko) Analyst; a good scientist and conceptualist. Their primary attention is given to global issues. A generator of ideas. Achievements with potential are more important to them than the result of the current moment. Soft, correct and careful in his social contacts. Outwardly frequently very slim, gives more attention to external appearance and health than Logical subtype.

    What you'll notice about these two subtypes is how they are very similar. It might even be possible to switch around the descriptions, and things would not be that inconsistent. What's going on here is that the subtypes form a relationship similar to this grouping:

    ENTp-Ne
    ENTp-Ti
    -------
    INTj-Ne
    INTj-Ti

    If you consider the subtypes as being on sort of a spectrum, the ENTp-Ne and INTj-Ti subtypes are right next to each other. That means that there is a fine line separating these two types. That fine line is equivalent to an equal amount of Ne and Ti - a type completely between the ENTp and INTj. So, basically, the subtypes are determined by the amount of emphasis placed on the primary and secondary functions. In an INTj, when the amount of Ne used is close to the amount of Ti used, you get an INTj-Ne. When the amount of Ti used far surpasses the amount of Ne, you get an INTj-Ti. The reason the ENTp-Ti and INTj-Ne are so close in description is because both types are close in the amount of Ne and Ti that they use. This leads to two types that are nearing equal use of Ne and Ti, so they seem very similar. Both of those descriptions fit me so well, that I have discovered that I'm one of those two types. Choosing which one I fit is like splitting hairs, so you might as well flip a coin.

    Jason

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    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I know that some people get confused about how we arrive at the subtypes, so I'll explain them. Consider the ENTp-Ti subtype and the INTj-Ne subtype:

    ENTp-Ti:
    (Victor Gulenko) Self-centred and pensive. Their ideas do not have direct connection with reality, for example philosophy, religion, bioenergetics etc. Their favourite occupation is comparing different logical systems. A type of office scientist. A very slim figure is characteristic for them. Angular in their movements, does not pay attention to external appearance, worry little about their health.

    INTj-Ne:
    (Victor Gulenko) Analyst; a good scientist and conceptualist. Their primary attention is given to global issues. A generator of ideas. Achievements with potential are more important to them than the result of the current moment. Soft, correct and careful in his social contacts. Outwardly frequently very slim, gives more attention to external appearance and health than Logical subtype.

    What you'll notice about these two subtypes is how they are very similar. It might even be possible to switch around the descriptions, and things would not be that inconsistent. What's going on here is that the subtypes form a relationship similar to this grouping:

    ENTp-Ne
    ENTp-Ti
    -------
    INTj-Ne
    INTj-Ti

    If you consider the subtypes as being on sort of a spectrum, the ENTp-Ne and INTj-Ti subtypes are right next to each other. That means that there is a fine line separating these two types. That fine line is equivalent to an equal amount of Ne and Ti - a type completely between the ENTp and INTj. So, basically, the subtypes are determined by the amount of emphasis placed on the primary and secondary functions. In an INTj, when the amount of Ne used is close to the amount of Ti used, you get an INTj-Ne. When the amount of Ti used far surpasses the amount of Ne, you get an INTj-Ti. The reason the ENTp-Ti and INTj-Ne are so close in description is because both types are close in the amount of Ne and Ti that they use. This leads to two types that are nearing equal use of Ne and Ti, so they seem very similar. Both of those descriptions fit me so well, that I have discovered that I'm one of those two types. Choosing which one I fit is like splitting hairs, so you might as well flip a coin.

    Jason
    Well it's fairly self-evident that subtypes running along quadra/club will follow a spectrum. I doubt anyone would bother arguing that idea. Additionally, it's not a huge logical leap to say that Ti-ENTp and Ne-INTj are going to share a lot in thought process. To say that choosing between them is like flipping a coin is entirely false. The difference lies in temperament. Ti-ENTp's are still EP temperament; they may be more grounded than an Ne-ENTp, but they are still EP. Similarly, Ne-INTj's will appear a little more open and abstract, but they aren't EPs. They're IJ.

    Take myself and thehotelambush. While I'm generally more grounded and serious than someone like Allie or Riddy (Ne-ENTps) it would definitely be a huge stretch to call me either introverted or judging. I may be a little more level-headed, but I still have little patience for extended, solitary tasks and I still have a tendency for explosively extroverted behaviour. I'm fidgety, gregarious, and pretty impulsive. Less so than Riddy or Allie, but it's still definitely there. Meanwhile, thehotelambush is Ne-INTj and more open and sociable then one would expect from an INTj or Ti-INTj. But I don't think anyone would ever say that myself or Steve (another Ti-ENTp) are interchangeable with thehotelambush (THA) where type is concerned. THA clearly demonstrates IJ temperament. He's calm and quiet, hard to phaze. He still approaches issues from a very rational perspective where I will prefer an irrational approach.
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I am much more inclined to see the Ne subtypes of both types as the more similar.

    Ne-ENTp | Ti-ENTp
    ------------------
    Ne-INTj | Ti INTj

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    Nice theorizing although in reality the INTJ-Ne subtype and ENTP-Ti subtype do differ a lot.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Well it's fairly self-evident that subtypes running along quadra/club will follow a spectrum. I doubt anyone would bother arguing that idea. Additionally, it's not a huge logical leap to say that Ti-ENTp and Ne-INTj are going to share a lot in thought process. To say that choosing between them is like flipping a coin is entirely false. The difference lies in temperament. Ti-ENTp's are still EP temperament; they may be more grounded than an Ne-ENTp, but they are still EP. Similarly, Ne-INTj's will appear a little more open and abstract, but they aren't EPs. They're IJ.

    Take myself and thehotelambush. While I'm generally more grounded and serious than someone like Allie or Riddy (Ne-ENTps) it would definitely be a huge stretch to call me either introverted or judging. I may be a little more level-headed, but I still have little patience for extended, solitary tasks and I still have a tendency for explosively extroverted behaviour. I'm fidgety, gregarious, and pretty impulsive. Less so than Riddy or Allie, but it's still definitely there. Meanwhile, thehotelambush is Ne-INTj and more open and sociable then one would expect from an INTj or Ti-INTj. But I don't think anyone would ever say that myself or Steve (another Ti-ENTp) are interchangeable with thehotelambush (THA) where type is concerned. THA clearly demonstrates IJ temperament. He's calm and quiet, hard to phaze. He still approaches issues from a very rational perspective where I will prefer an irrational approach.
    You must have misinterpreted what I said (or I wasn't clear). I wasn't saying that all ENTp-Ti and INTj-Ne subtypes are close enough that you could flip a coin, I was saying that I'm close enough that you could flip a coin. Whether it comes down to this depends on how close you lie between the two types on the spectrum. I also think that the closer you get to the dividing line between the two types, the more you'll exhibit characteristics of both temperaments. For example, I'm very quiet and unsociable, but, on the other hand, I'm fidgety, I have a fairly high level of mental energy (but not physical energy), and I'm very disorderly. Interestingly, I identify with both INTj and ENTp descriptions. This tells me that I'm close enough that it's hard to tell which type I am. However, this doesn't apply to everyone.

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 07-04-2008 at 05:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    You must have misinterpreted what I said (or I wasn't clear). I wasn't saying that all ENTp-Ti and INTj-Ne subtypes are close enough that you could flip a coin, I was saying that I'm close enough that you could flip a coin. Whether it comes down to this depends on how close you lie between the two types on the spectrum. I also think that the closer you get between the two types, the more you'll exhibit characteristics of both temperaments. For example, I'm very quiet and unsociable, but, on the other hand, I'm fidgety, I have a fairly high level of mental energy (but not physical energy), and I'm very disorderly. Interestingly, I identify with both INTj and ENTp descriptions. This tells me that I'm close enough that it's hard to tell which type I am. However, this doesn't apply to everyone.

    Jason

    just wandering....is there a picture of you anywhere on this maze of a site ?
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    I wonder if this way of conceptualising subtypes is somehow 'incompatible' with the fixing-the-temperament-and-rotating-around-quadras system, where an INTj-Ne is closer to an INFj-Ne while an ENTp-Ti is closer to an ESTp-Ti. It seems to me like this would mean the INTj-Ne in actually further away from ENTp-Ti than the INTj-Ti, because the former is closer to a Delta NF while the latter is closer to a Beta ST

    I do think though that there should be a spectrum/continuum between temperaments as well as quadras, so there should be a way to reconcile the two (even if I don't understand it, imfd has probably tried to explain it before)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensi View Post
    just wandering....is there a picture of you anywhere on this maze of a site ?
    There are pictures, but, better yet, there is a video: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=19382. Keep in mind, however, that I don't strongly believe in visual identification.

    Jason

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    I've always identified very strongly with being introverted and rational, but some of the common conceptions of LIIs as "organized" and "reliable" don't fit me at all. I procrastinate like it's my job, my room is always a mess, and I get bored easily with routine. What subtypes have made me realize is that such things are related more to weak Se (perhaps as well as being an irrational subtype), so, yes, Ti subtypes are going to be more spatially organized (while having less differentiated emotions). But my thinking process is entirely rational. I need to have a reason for everything, something that ILEs rarely identify with. jason, it seems to me like you are very rational in this sense.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I've always identified very strongly with being introverted and rational, but some of the common conceptions of LIIs as "organized" and "reliable" don't fit me at all. I procrastinate like it's my job, my room is always a mess, and I get bored easily with routine. What subtypes have made me realize is that such things are related more to weak Se (perhaps as well as being an irrational subtype), so, yes, Ti subtypes are going to be more spatially organized (while having less differentiated emotions). But my thinking process is entirely rational. I need to have a reason for everything, something that ILEs rarely identify with. jason, it seems to me like you are very rational in this sense.
    Maybe you're right. One reason I've been leaning away from LII is because of what you stated. I have a friend who I think is an LII, and it seems that we're very different. Everything he does is based on some kind of rule. He's extremely organized, very rigid, and focuses much more on concrete systems. For example, he thinks philosophy is just nonsense. For me, this is utter heresy. It's hard for me to see us being the same type. However, it could be that we're different subtypes. I'm almost certain that he's an INTj-Ti, while I would be an INTj-Ne.

    Jason

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    as an aside, it's interesting to note that an INTj "averaged" with an ESTp and an INTj "averaged" with {ISTj, ENTp} would be two different animals. consider the 3rd tier Reinin dichotomies, which consist of Quadra Values and also the Thinking Styles (negativism and result in the INTj.)

    the ESTp and INTj both have identicle thinking styles. so an average of the two types would be no less negativist+result (also known a "Holographic Thinking") than the typical INTj.

    ISTj and ENTp on the other hand are positivism and process (precisely the opposite of the INTj's thinking style.) so to average these two types with an INTj would dilute the INTj's thinking styles in the resulting subtype.

    nevertheless, both resulting averages in the above two cases (although depending upon the weight of the average of course, but that is not important) may appear identical, in terms of Temperament and Club. both would be more EP and beta ST than the typical INTj.

    but elsewhere in the dichotomies, they differ. such is the peculiarity of a many-dimensional system the types become, when you consider extensions like the Reinin dichotomies. (in that case, there are 15 orthogonal dimensions precisely.)
    Which criteria are you using to construct the averages? Thinking styles across different quadras? A different ring from the usual temperament-across-quadras which takes into consideration the result-process and negativist-positivist dichtomies instead of introversion-extraversion and judging-perceiving?

    Basically you "mean" (not sure that you mean it, perhaps you're only toying with ideas) that subtypes across a given type could alternatively be explained via thinking styles quadra progression rather than temperament quadra progression?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    There are pictures, but, better yet, there is a video: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=19382. Keep in mind, however, that I don't strongly believe in visual identification.

    Jason
    check im.
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Maybe you're right. One reason I've been leaning away from LII is because of what you stated. I have a friend who I think is an LII, and it seems that we're very different. Everything he does is based on some kind of rule. He's extremely organized, very rigid, and focuses much more on concrete systems. For example, he thinks philosophy is just nonsense. For me, this is utter heresy. It's hard for me to see us being the same type. However, it could be that we're different subtypes. I'm almost certain that he's an INTj-Ti, while I would be an INTj-Ne.

    Jason
    Or maybe he's LSI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I've always identified very strongly with being introverted and rational, but some of the common conceptions of LIIs as "organized" and "reliable" don't fit me at all. I procrastinate like it's my job, my room is always a mess, and I get bored easily with routine. What subtypes have made me realize is that such things are related more to weak Se (perhaps as well as being an irrational subtype), so, yes, Ti subtypes are going to be more spatially organized (while having less differentiated emotions). But my thinking process is entirely rational. I need to have a reason for everything, something that ILEs rarely identify with. jason, it seems to me like you are very rational in this sense.
    yeah and "you must have misunderstood". i thought that was very rational too. that was his first thought.

    Hotel, what do you mean by differentiated emotions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    yeah and "you must have misunderstood". i thought that was very rational too. that was his first thought.

    Hotel, what do you mean by differentiated emotions?
    For one thing, Ti-LIIs don't seem to express as many gradations in their emotional state (in their speech, especially). But I tend to think they aren't as aware of them, either.

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Or maybe he's LSI?
    I thought of that, but he seems to lack confidence and has a hard time standing up to people. Also, the description of the INTj on Socionics.com fits him better than the description of the ISTj. I don't know if you have watched Star Trek, but it's funny - his demeanor and behaviour is strikingly like Data's. If you consider Data to be an ISTj, then my friend is probably an ISTj. However, if you consider him to be an INTj, then he's probably an INTj.

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 07-05-2008 at 08:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    I am much more inclined to see the Ne subtypes of both types as the more similar.
    Same here. I find this applies to all types as well. I.e. Ne ENTps are more like Ne INTjs, Ni ENFjs are more like Ni INFps etc.
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    Same here. I find this applies to all types as well. I.e. Ne ENTps are more like Ne INTjs, Ni ENFjs are more like Ni INFps etc.
    Yep I agree too, based on my own experience.

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