Se/Fi vs. Fe
i believe this was discussed somewhere but i don't know where.
what do you see as the differences between Se Fi and Fe? more specifically ENFj and ESFp? these are the top two i think i may be. thanks. (other than the obvious quadra values, because using those are not working for me right now)
the similarities i see that i identify with are Se, strong ethics, Ni and sexy, silly, serious playfulness, and competitive.
Ugh, this is a difficult one. To be honest my first thought on the matter is that both Se+Fi and Fe+Ni are stereotyped as being loud and boisterous which causes some confusion. Hmm.. I take it this is something you're considering for yourself? If so, I've a question for you. I can't guarantee it's accurate, nor can I guarantee it'll truly separate the two types, but I shall give it a shot nonetheless:
Which of the following statements apply to you more (remember they don't necessarily preclude eachother):
a) You enjoy being with people for the sake of soaking in the general emotional atmosphere. The atmosphere and mood of the gathering is more important than the actual individuals comprising it; i.e. you would feel just as happy with the same emotional atmosphere with completely different people.
b) You enjoy being with people for the individual bonds you form with them and for the experience of the occasion. The individual people that comprise the social gathering are an important factor; the experience for you would be noticably different (not necessarily better or worse; just different) depending on who you were interacting with, regardless of the general atmosphere or mood of the event.
To be honest I've spent about 10-15 minutes working on this question and I'm still not happy with it, since I don't feel either of these descriptions really accurately convey the differences in either one. If one of them does particularly stand out to you over the other one, then perhaps it might be of use, but if you find you relate to both of them quite similarly then you'd be best off ignoring this, since it's not something that's easy to simply differentiate with descriptions. I'll try and think of an alternative approach in the meantime. I'm starting to think what you look for in other people would be a better thing to think about, but again, it's not something where you can simply say "This is X, that is Y". I dunno, let me know what you think; I'll see if I can work from there.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
thank you so much for taking the time to come up with this.Originally Posted by BLauritson
almost 100% b experience and bonds, my emotional expression comes out FROM the physical experiences and bonds, those come first. i can also form a bond with someone fairly quickly from a shared experience. something as simple as:
in the grocery store yesterday, my two girls were riding in a shopping cart that is shaped like a car. my kids are not "normally" calm and quiet, but in this moment they were. a couple with kids who were loud right then walked past. the man said to me "how do you get them to be so quiet?" i said "they aren't normally like that." and then over my shoulder as they just passed me "DON'T JINX IT!" and we both had a good laugh.
to me, the experience of pushing the kids around the store, bumping into other parents and sharing something that we both know to be true about kids in a fun and playful way was the package of experience, bonding and then emotional expression together. but like i said, i think the experience and bonding come first to give me the WHAT that i feel like emotionally expressing ON or WITH.
i would LIKE to be in more social situations where people physically played more. and where we bonded BECAUSE of those fun experiences. most of my friendships were made from having shared experiences and interests and activities together. then while we are sharing the activity, we are being goofy, crazy, silly, fun, loud, etc...playfully competitive too.
unfortunately, i don't find moms in my circles to be like this. i was really excited when my homeschool group was going to be coordinating games and outdoor play sport things for the kids at the park. our first game of kickball ended up isolating me and my boys from others and a lot of the moms not liking me because my boys and i were having such fun ACTUALLY PLAYING kickball. i thought "how cool, we're gonna have fun with new experiences and fun making new and better friends through this experience. more opportunities to make friends..." nope. i'm too competitive or physically "out there" for the other moms...now a bunch of them don't even like me at all anymore...wtf? people don't know how to PLAY with their kids! Come on! Get up, let's go, let's have some fun!
Up until this point I was still a bit uncertain, but now I'm starting to narrow it down. I don't want to say anything yet though, since I know how easily a thought pattern can be influenced. Anyway, if you don't mind doing so I'd like you to elaborate further on this particular quote. Well, a couple of questions spring to mind about this anyway:
1) Is this a mindset you're in often? (i.e. hoping to make new friends etc.)
2) When you do meet and interact with strangers, even after you leave, do you consider yourself having a lasting bond with them, even if only a casual one? Obviously they won't necessarily be close bonds or anything, but would you consider it a lasting connection, or a situational one? I'm not sure I'm explaining this correctly, but hopefully you see what I mean. Depending on your answers to these two questions, I'll probably have a reasonably confident idea of your type. Unfortunately, I must go to bed now, so it will be many an hour before I'm able to respond. Rest assured though I shall not forget this thread.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
I'm very intrigued.*waiting in anticipation*
that's an easy one. yes and yes.
i'll elaborate in the sense that i don't "remember" consciously those connections, especially to be able to tell a "story" about them later. the few stories i've shared were like pulling teeth to get them out. my hubby is the one that is good with that stuff. he is sentimental and i'm in the present, eyes looking straight ahead for next, next, next (or slightly in the clouds). he calms me down and i get him moving. making connections is the main reason i get on the internet...
i WANT to make more and new friends. i think i'm not looking in the right places for the friends i can really let loose and be myself with...as my baby gets a bit older, i look forward to doing more things FOR AND BY MYSELF (meaning without kids for a change.) things like my own softball team, a dance class, going out with other mom friends, having more "dates" with my hubby, being able to jump in the pool without having to hold a baby!
I think that that is a very good question cause one is Benefit/Control to the other....they are somewhat dependant on one another....i sometimes have problems distinguishing someone this way on the first impression...till i get to observe them a little more and it becomes rather obvious.
ENTP:wink:
ALPHA
i'm an impatient cuss...WHAT are your observations that make it rather obvious to you?
There isn't really any set characteristic rule other than observing the percentages of the various disbursements of functional energies....i'm an impatient cuss...WHAT are your observations that make it rather obvious to you?
your true identity is your overall identity and not not any supporting identities you've acquired over your lifetime.
IRL....Je is rather easy to spot over Pe......despite the fact that both of those types value Se and Ni
ENTP
This paragraph especially gives me reason to think you're SEE>EIE. I wouldn't rule out EIE entirely, but based on what you've said so far in this thread (I haven't read any other of your typing threads though, since I don't read typing threads in general that often) I'd say with reasonable confidence that you're SEE. What you said about "he calms me down and i get him moving." is a very good summary of ESxp-INxp interaction in general. While technically an argument could still be made for EIE, I think overall what you've written in this thread points more to SEE. Especially what you say about being in the present all the time; that's very indicative of Se-ego (not to say that no other types can be in the present, but it points much more to Se-ego over Ni-ego. Ni-egos, especially Ni-dominants, are usually inside their heads more than they are in reality).
So, how does the prospect of being SEE sound to you?
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
the prospect of being SEE sounds great.
one question left then. over in another thread on internet communication, jem mentioned to me that Fe is more about altering the emotional mood, which you mentioned too. and that Fi is about our true inner feelings. and that the two don't always coincide. an Fe will and/or can express to alter the mood even if it goes against their true feelings.
if that is true, would an Fi only express their feelings when their true inner feelings are wanting/needing to be expressed then, regardless of if the mood is altered or changed?
also, who are the ones that hide their true feelings in lieu of the relationship, not necessarily for preserving the emotional atmosphere?
ok, still now sure about this....
Kam said in another thread that his emotions can be affected by others' emotions. That is very true for me. Not emotions that are coming out "just to lighten the mood". Those seems fake to me. But a person's true expression and/or vibe. I can tell the difference.
I don't like that I allow others' emotions to affect me so strongly. I always have. It's so "bad" that I have to stay away from certain people, certain tv shows, certain movies, I don't watch the news. Maybe that is me manipulating the mood or atmosphere because if i didn't, it would be an emotional disaster for me. but the reason i do it too is because my relationships and the bonding i DO WANT suffer because my emotions are "out of hand" so to speak.
A simple for instance. When walking down the aisle in the grocery store, I can "sense" the emotional vibe and/or state of another coming toward me. If this vibe is not one that I want to take in to my emotional being (because it would come right into me if i didn't take precautions), then I either 1. look away as i walk past, maintaining my own emotional equilibrium 2. put up a "deflector shield" 3. smile and send THEM positive energy. I have to do one of those thing to keep my own emotions stable as well as any relations and/or connection/bond I had with the other person emotionally stable as well.
The main thing that helps me be able to do those things to help myself and the relationship I have with others is MOVEMENT. That is why i workout, dance a lot, run around physically playing with my kids. As I do those things, I am strong enough to take care of what I need to in the above mentioned instance. When I stop moving my body, i become too weak to ward off negative energy from others and it goes right into my emotional body to wreak havoc. and the first thing to suffer is my relationships with others. since they ARE important to me, i try not to let that happen.
Another indication in favour of SEE. Some may disagree, but I think a lot of people (myself included) hold the view that if a particular type stands out to you as one you'd really like to be, or really like the thought of being, chances are that is your actual type.the prospect of being SEE sounds great.
eh...this is a really difficult one to be honest, since it's not necessarily as clear-cut as that. It's not so much a case of one shows their feelings, one hides their feelings, but...I think whether or not they're expressed in general is more of an individual trait, but what differs is how they're expressed. As I understand it, Fe-egos will express their feelings through things like body language, tone of voice, basically anything you could channel emotion through. Imagine the emotion as a sort of energy and they're physically releasing that energy by channelling their emotions through what they say and do. Fi-egos on the other hand, is more prone to simply tell you how they're feeling. That's not to say that they'll tell you with a completely straight face that they're feeling some sort of strong emotion or whatever, but they don't channel it outwards in the way that Fe-egos would. It's one of those things that's much easier to observe when you've got real life examples to compare. Furthermore, these descriptions aren't necessarily rigid in the sense that there will be exceptions depending on the circumstances. I think I once came up with the analogy that the way an Fe-ego would express their emotion (assuming they had no reason to restrain themselves - that's a very important factor also; being Fe-dominant doesn't mean they're going to be unrestrained in how they express their emotions), but yeah, my personal perspective is that the way an Fe-ego would express their emotions is akin to the way a good singer would project their voice onto the audience. Do you see what I mean when I say that? And if an Fi-ego express their emotions, they might still be showing the emotion for example through their facial expression, but there isn't that element of, like in the analogy, there isn't the element of the singer projecting their voice. That's something else I should point out also just to avoid misunderstandings - when I talk of a singer projecting their voice, that doesn't mean that an Fe-ego would "project" their emotions onto another person, in the sense of, say if Person A is angry, and they project their anger onto Person B and therefore assume Person B is the angry one. That's NOT what I'm referring to here. I know how easy misunderstandings are in this place so that's why I'm pointing that out. Anyway, with that long ramble over with, onto the next parts.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "in lieu of the relationship".. could you elaborate please?
To be fair, unless you were completely emotionally detached, or had very thick skin, who wouldn't be affected by another person's emotions? If someone were angry and shouting at you, how many people would you expect to simply shrug it off and not be affected? I think people tend to forget this sort of thing when considering whether they value Fe or Fi. I have Fe-PoLR but I can be affected in just the same way. For example, a while back at work I had a woman shouting at me down the phone for about 13 minutes, which in my opinion (both at the time and looking back on it) was completely unjustified. This was near the end of my shift. Now I'm normally a very safe driver, but the way I was driving home that day, I nearly caused several accidents along the way because I wanted to kill the bitch so badly. In other words, emotional sensitivity has absolutely nothing to do with Fe vs Fi preference, or even whether you have strong or weak ethical functions.
Again, I honestly don't think this is related to Socionics. I think you just have a high level of empathy and that you know it can overwhelm you. As a result, you've learned to take steps to avoid getting overwhelmed so that both yourself and your loved ones don't suffer from it. It's just common sense really.
When I was in the USA with Kelly (Khamelion), one thing I noticed, which I've since attributed to Se-dominance, was that she was very good at reading subtle vibes to the extent that when I was talking to her once and then lost my train of thought, before I said anything she was able to tell just based on subtle vibes that I'd lost my train of thought, which actually surprised me when she said it. It's something I've come to notice in sensory types is that they are (barring any physical problems of course) much better attuned to their physical senses than intuitive types tend to be, to the extent that I'd imagine that a lot of them take for granted the level of physical sensitivity they have, i.e. assuming that everyone has that. And I think the same is happening with you; you're picking up on very subtle vibes, which because you have a strong level of empathy those vibes can affect your emotions so strongly, which is why you have to take action to stop that from happening.
Hmm...don't really have a great deal to comment on with regards to this, although Se-dominants are very much prone to physical activity and usually have a lot of energy for this. That's not to say that being physically active is necessarily a sign of Se-dominance, but it's definitely something I've observed in them.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
for now i'll reply with this quote in another thread:
What do you mean by "their own relationship with themselves"?
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
the only thing i can really say right now is that my emotional sensitivity is a HUGE THING about me my whole life. it is SO STRONG that it's not about someone yelling at me or something like that. i walk into a room and i sense each person's emotional well being right then and there. and i am affected by each of them. they don't have to say a word. they just BE and i know what is going on within them emotionally. the "thing" of it for each person is so strong to me that that is why i have to protect myself. most people are truly unhappy inside. i sense it and it sucks. unless it truly is all a mirror of my own inner state, my own inner unhappiness... being human is scary. i was happier and more at peace being an angel. so, i do energy work to be that Light source while i have a human experience. so, i have lots of physical energy that i use all day to keep me grounded or i go into inner unhappiness land. no thanks. that sucks. and that's why i was determined from a young age to figure out how to "overcome" this emotional sensitivity thing and to help others, especially children and "inner children", with being healthy and strong emotionally...it just so happens that physical play and remembering being an angel are the ways i do it.
This sounds very Ni/Fe (not necessarily in this order) IMO.
if a person doesn't know who they are or like themselves or understanding their own way of being, doing, etc....and be able to like and love themselves, their relationships with others will suffer and not be based in true like or love for others.
i really believe that if more people allowed themselves to play like children, let themselves be ok with who they are and just did it, whatever they as themselves would do, people would like and love themselves more, which would in turn make for better relationships with others.
To be completely honest I'm not really sure what to think right now...I'll have to dwell on this for a bit.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
welcome to my world!
Well, having thought for a little bit, to be honest I'm still more convinced of Fi-ego if nothing else, for the reasons outlined previously. Saying that...the emotional sensitivity certainly complicates matters. I mean, I had considered your tendency towards physical activity a sign of Se-dominance, but I'm also considering it possible that you could be a Delta NF who's simply taken to physical mobility as a coping strategy. Since I don't know you very closely or anything, it's very difficult to tell.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
the more i think of it myself, delta nf with se as a coping strategy does sound right. and if so, which one? i move my body, push and workout and such to GROUND me. and why not SLI or LSE? aren't LSEs in constant motion and might be emotionally sensitive and need someone else to calm their emotions? just some thoughts coming out now...
Hmm...needing something physical to ground you definitely seems to indicate Ne-ego over Se-ego. I can't really give any real reasoning as to why I don't think Delta ST of any sort, other than it just doesn't feel right.
eh...typing completely on gut-feeling, for some reason my first instinct is EII>IEE, but again, I don't have any proper reasoning for this. I'm more confident of Delta NF over Beta NF though.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
.
yes, relating to you and discojoe on other occasions has led me to the SEE idea, for now.I want you as a friend.
I NEED physical movement too. Actually, I am always moving automatically. It's definitely a physical impulsivity. The EP thing is physical for me. But, I also relate to the IEE interest impulsivity too....
outdoors, yes.
So would you say you relate to EP temperament more than IJ temperament then?
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
for many years i related to I and J but not the IJ socionics description. the EP description is closer. but still a possibility of EJ.
to be more clear. i was super shy for many years because of the whole emotional sensitivity thing. so, i identified with I. but i always felt like an extrovert that was "trapped" in this self consciousness. it was very uncomfortable.
now that i've matured, i'm not so shy anymore. most do see me as an extrovert. and i do now as well.
as far as the P and J, those are the two that i have the hardest time deciding on. i go both ways in different things, in different ways. it's not very clear cut to me on those.
my sis says EP while still wanting control over being EP. the control i want is the freedom to go and do and whatever, whenever i want. i do not like anyone else telling me what to do...maybe that is Se and since she doesn't value it (maybe) she sees it as needing control (J). it's MY life and i will live it MY way.
Hmm.. this is indeed a difficult one. I think you probably won't find the answer to your type immediately, but rather it'll become clearer as time goes on. My advice at this stage would be to consider ESFp vs. ENFp and see which one feels right to you. If, after some time, you still don't really fit that well into either of them, then it would be worth, IMO, considering ISFj vs. INFj and seeing if either of those fit you. But for the time being, I think SEE vs. IEE would be worth considering, since I'm fairly confident based on what you've said that you have Fi in the ego block. Whether it's leading or creative Fi remains to be seen, but I think exploring the types I've mentioned here might help. Like I say, it probably won't be an immediate answer and at first it might even feel a bit strange to consider yourself as type XYZ (I know when I first started on the idea of being ILI, it took a bit of getting used to) but I think if you truly are one of these types, then if you consider the idea for a while, perhaps a couple of weeks or so, it'll probably start to make more sense. Of course, others may have alternative opinions but this is what my thoughts are at this stage.
You know, it's just occurred to me that this is the first time I've properly attempted to type someone online beyond a single post. I'm sure you must feel rather special now
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
SEE's see LSI's as overly strict.
EIE's see ILI's as (someone help me with this one)... socially inept? awkward?... and feel like they should correct/help them with it?
Basically what I'm saying is that it comes down to whether the person is most compatible with Te + Ni or Ti + Se.
I agree.I want you as a friend.
if catherine zeta-jones is LSI then, yes, i watched an interview with her a while back and strict was the word i thought she was too much of.
socially inept doesn't bother me. rudeness does.
well some beta fire is being thrown at me in the beta section. not my cup of tea.
there are different camps thinking i'm different types, with their own reasons for it. only i know me irl. i'll decide myself....
i really appreciate it.Hmm.. this is indeed a difficult one. I think you probably won't find the answer to your type immediately, but rather it'll become clearer as time goes on. My advice at this stage would be to consider ESFp vs. ENFp and see which one feels right to you. If, after some time, you still don't really fit that well into either of them, then it would be worth, IMO, considering ISFj vs. INFj and seeing if either of those fit you. But for the time being, I think SEE vs. IEE would be worth considering, since I'm fairly confident based on what you've said that you have Fi in the ego block. Whether it's leading or creative Fi remains to be seen, but I think exploring the types I've mentioned here might help. Like I say, it probably won't be an immediate answer and at first it might even feel a bit strange to consider yourself as type XYZ (I know when I first started on the idea of being ILI, it took a bit of getting used to) but I think if you truly are one of these types, then if you consider the idea for a while, perhaps a couple of weeks or so, it'll probably start to make more sense. Of course, others may have alternative opinions but this is what my thoughts are at this stage.
You know, it's just occurred to me that this is the first time I've properly attempted to type someone online beyond a single post. I'm sure you must feel rather special now
I haven't read anything there, so I don't know what you're referring to... but there are different types of "beta fire". I'm sure it's possible to be repelled by that of some Betas even if you're Beta. (Not that I think you are.)
Since there's no way to KNOW someone's type, all any of us are left with is our own observations, opinions, and understanding. Just because you or others think you're one type or another doesn't actually make you that type, so in the end we're all essentially believing what we want to believe.there are different camps thinking i'm different types, with their own reasons for it. only i know me irl. i'll decide myself....
Anyways, what I'm getting at is that other people's opinions don't matter. It's interesting to hear people tell you what they're seeing and how they interpret it, but that's essentially all it is.
Hmmmm... There aren't many celebrities that I've been attracted to, and she's one of them. That could be why. I don't know her type though.if catherine zeta-jones is LSI then, yes, i watched an interview with her a while back and strict was the word i thought she was too much of.
socially inept doesn't bother me. rudeness does.
Can I just say that it's funny how this is the second time someone (ScarlettLux first time) has considered SEE and EIE. I'd be interested to keep up to date with future occurrences like this.
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