Te in ego & Religion/beliefs/spirituality

[UDP]

I am remembering Expat saying something like "If most people ever saw what goes on in the mind of a Te dominant, they might not be able to believe it" or something like that. (Please find the real quote).

As some of you may know, I have been looking at spirituality and religions for a while, and especially recently I've been looking at some things.

This thread is sort of a mixture of a number of questions and comments I have on the matter of religion/beliefs/spirituality.


First, do you know any Te-ego people who are very religious or spiritual? What are they like to you?


For myself, I have been investigating spirituality and religion for a while, but it still seems to remain entirely beyond my grasp. Being around more and more people over the last few years, and seeing those that are really "ethically skilled", it has made me realize how unskilled I am. I seem to be unable to "use ethics" properly. Maybe that's because it's not something you "use", I don't know. At any rate, religion/beliefs/spirituality remain elusive for me.

I am actually beginning to understand why there were things like "shamans" and designated religious people, because it seems so much easier for me to look to someone (whom I trust on these matters) for advice, rather than trying to figure anything out myself.


I haven't exactly "lost faith" in my ability to have faith or understand faith/spirituality/be religious, but I wonder if maybe it is just something I cannot be good at, or, something I should really just leave to other people. I wonder if this is one thing that I cannot cultivate much skill at, and should just sort of realize that it is simply not my forte.

[implied]

i only remember something about how if most people were inside the mind of an INTp for a day, they would probably not want to claim they were INTp. i'm obviously paraphrasing here because i can't remember the quote verbatim either.

[Mediator Kam]

For myself, I have been investigating spirituality and religion for a while, but it still seems to remain entirely beyond my grasp. Being around more and more people over the last few years, and seeing those that are really "ethically skilled", it has made me realize how unskilled I am. I seem to be unable to "use ethics" properly. Maybe that's because it's not something you "use", I don't know. At any rate, religion/beliefs/spirituality remain elusive for me.

I haven't exactly "lost faith" in my ability to have faith or understand faith/spirituality/be religious, but I wonder if maybe it is just something I cannot be good at, or, something I should really just leave to other people. I wonder if this is one thing that I cannot cultivate much skill at, and should just sort of realize that it is simply not my forte.

You make it sound like religion is a woodworking class or something. Religion and spirituality isn't (shouldn't be) an ethereal subject that only ethical types can fully grasp. You should be using your Te to determine what (if any) systems of religious beliefs make sense to you. Otherwise, why would you pursue it? For feelings that are based on lies? My advice would be to study as much as you can about all the different types of religions, then decide whether you think they make sense.

I know a few Te-ego types who are religious, and they are very competent in being able to explain why they believe what they do. There is nothing airy fairy about their beliefs.

[force my hand]

I haven't exactly "lost faith" in my ability to have faith or understand faith/spirituality/be religious, but I wonder if maybe it is just something I cannot be good at, or, something I should really just leave to other people. I wonder if this is one thing that I cannot cultivate much skill at, and should just sort of realize that it is simply not my forte.

It seems to me that a couple of things have to align first - both mechanistic belief and then trust that said belief is valuable to human experience. I think because of culture we tend to assume the latter, and because of it don't get too involved with the nitty-gritty aspects of the former.

I would say spend time and energy 'questing' for your spirituality, but begin to recognize how the two aspects play out in your mind.

For me, the biggie is mere belief - if I can't find it or it doesn't make sense with my experience, I stop there, and worry about human experience within a naturalistic context.

[xyz]

It seems to me that a couple of things have to align first - both mechanistic belief and then trust that said belief is valuable to human experience. I think because of culture we tend to assume the latter, and because of it don't get too involved with the nitty-gritty aspects of the former.

I would say spend time and energy 'questing' for your spirituality, but begin to recognize how the two aspects play out in your mind.

For me, the biggie is mere belief - if I can't find it or it doesn't make sense with my experience, I stop there, and worry about human experience within a naturalistic context.

Thank you, you nailed it man.

[Phaedrus]

First, do you know any Te-ego people who are very religious or spiritual?

No.

What are they like to you?

Scientifically minded and non-religious in general.

[Logos]

No.


Scientifically minded and non-religious in general.

Just like Thomas Aquinas.

[jason_m]

No.


Scientifically minded and non-religious in general.

Ignore this. It likely comes from a troll. That's why it might not sound accurate.

Jason

[Phaedrus]

Ignore this. It likely comes from a troll. That's why it might not sound accurate.

And how do you explain the fact that it actually sounds sound and accurate if we compare with how Te ego types are in real life? Is a comparison with reality irrelevant in your opinion?

[Expat]

I am remembering Expat saying something like "If most people ever saw what goes on in the mind of a Te dominant, they might not be able to believe it" or something like that. (Please find the real quote).

As far as I recall, when I did say something like that, I was referring to some individuals who type themselves incorrectly (in my judgement) as Te ego types. As in, they think they are Te ego but if they knew what Te ego really feels like, they'd turn away in disgust.

Apart from that, I don't think it's more difficult to believe what goes on in the minds of Te dominants than what goes on in the minds of Fe dominants etc.

[Joy]

AI don't think it's more difficult to believe what goes on in the minds of Te dominants than what goes on in the minds of Fe dominants etc.

[Logos]

As far as I recall, when I did say something like that, I was referring to some individuals who type themselves incorrectly (in my judgement) as Te ego types. As in, they think they are Te ego but if they knew what Te ego really feels like, they'd turn away in disgust.

Apart from that, I don't think it's more difficult to believe what goes on in the minds of Te dominants than what goes on in the minds of Fe dominants etc.

Or Ti minds, Ne minds, or Si minds, etc.

[BLauritson]

I don't follow any established religion and can't see myself doing so, but now and again I think on philosophical subjects relating to spirituality (I used to do so a lot more, but my mind is too preoccupied with real life nowadays. Gone are the days when I worked weekends and had the weeks off). I tend to think about what would make sense in a given context, based on what I "know" already (or, to put it another way, what seems realistic to me). I suppose the best way to sum it up is that I think about these subjects critically, but I criticise them against a subjective understanding or belief in the first place. I don't expect anyone else to agree with what I believe, but in my own mind, what I believe is correct, in as far as I've thought about it. It's obviously not something I can actually argue the accuracy of, since I have no objective data to argue it by, but basically I evaluate everything according to my gut instinct and my conception of spirituality as a whole. It's a complicated subject.

[iAnnAu]

As some of you may know, I have been looking at spirituality and religions for a while, and especially recently I've been looking at some things.
For myself, I have been investigating spirituality and religion for a while, but it still seems to remain entirely beyond my grasp. Being around more and more people over the last few years, and seeing those that are really "ethically skilled", it has made me realize how unskilled I am. I seem to be unable to "use ethics" properly. Maybe that's because it's not something you "use", I don't know. At any rate, religion/beliefs/spirituality remain elusive for me.

I'm SLI not LSE, but the "beyond my grasp" thing resonates with me. Even as a little kid, I was kinda like "yeah, right" around religious talk. Of course, I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic, but my parents also accommodated a period around 9-11 when I thought "maybe I'm missing out on something" and sampled a dozen or so churches ... so, I think I'm just not "wired" for religion.
I've also had specific experiences that caused me to have a chip on my shoulder about people with strong religious beliefs, especially christians ... I've been trying to get over this, since it's basically a waste of energy. I can admit that many people I respect and even admire have faith, and I have no wish to respect them less just because of that aspect.
There has of course been much debate for millenia about whether the human ability for faith signifies something unto itself. Did God create us with a need for connection to him/her/it/them, are we so free-willed that we aren't created knowing we need that connection even though we do, are we so connected on an as-yet-unconscious plane that we express our connection through the concept of God, did certain power-hungry individuals come up with the idea of God to keep the rest of us under their thumbs, is God and/or religious belief a concept that humankind will eventually outgrow ... etc. etc.
Funny that for me it's all abstract. Whether I'd like to or not, I simply don't have a faith. And actually, I don't want to.
However, I have noticed that the people I do respect who have faith seem to be more compassionate than the people I respect but tout no religion. This is only a small sampling group, so it's hard to say whether I should draw conclusions from it, but it's as if I can logically deduce that everything is interconnected and that I improve my place within the web by altruistic behavior (given that the AB doesn't significantly impair my self-sufficiency) ... but religious people are more likely to *feel* like giving in that way - the impulse arises spontaneously, whereas in my case I undertake the action at the conclusion of an analysis. And that brings back the nagging suspicion "maybe I'm missing out on something."

I am actually beginning to understand why there were things like "shamans" and designated religious people, because it seems so much easier for me to look to someone (whom I trust on these matters) for advice, rather than trying to figure anything out myself.

A friend of mine (INTP but perhaps INTj - not too sure) has undertaken a lifelong survey of religions - it's led to me reading many books I wouldn't have otherwise because we like discussing topics after both of us have read at least a couple of the same titles on a subject. For a few years, he considered himself Buddhist, but last year he became Sufi. I've spoken to him about the conversion several times, and the best that I can represent his message to me is something like
"I figured out that I want the faith, but that I'm not disciplined enough in my personal life to maintain the faith without the structure. Then it became a problem of finding a faith worth maintaining. While Buddhism wasn't unworthy, it didn't provide the right kind of structure."
And when I prodded him about where belief fits into that, he responded along the lines of
"I think belief is what you make of it. Sufis believe that God is love, that by loving you get closer to God, and that by refusing to love you refuse God. I can totally get behind that - it mirrors my inner belief. On top of that, the prayers, services and rituals revolve around bringing yourself closer to God, so when I practice the faith, I'm not contradicting myself."
This is one of the friends whom I respect highly, and I can respect this viewpoint, too. But for me, I just can't contrive faith, so engaging in the rituals of religion would not bring me closer to God - they'd make me feel like a hypocrite.

I haven't exactly "lost faith" in my ability to have faith or understand faith/spirituality/be religious, but I wonder if maybe it is just something I cannot be good at, or, something I should really just leave to other people. I wonder if this is one thing that I cannot cultivate much skill at, and should just sort of realize that it is simply not my forte.

One of my favorite quotes is "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." - Andre Gide.

[XoX]

People should draw a picture or take a photograph which would reflect what goes on in their mind. Or something. Perhaps visualizing it would make it easier to grasp for others. Well, it is probably hard to visualize.

[BLauritson]

People should draw a picture or take a photograph which would reflect what goes on in their mind.

If only it were that easy

[XoX]

If only it were that easy

Yeah. It is not. But I guess if you are even somewhat skilled in art or music or perhaps literature then you can show (at least a little bit) what's going on inside your mind. Perhaps making a movie could show it. But for someone non skilled like me...my art or music doesn't really reflect much anything.

[BLauritson]

Hmm.. I think it would half depend on your ability to write, draw, whatever, but the other half would depend on how accurately you can translate what's in your mind into an expressable format, if that makes sense. Sometimes a mental image can be far too rich or have too many sensory memories (by this I mean images, sounds, smells, etc.) or emotions attached to it to accurately express via a single sense, be it sight (drawn or written expression) or sound (music etc.).

[XoX]

Hmm.. I think it would half depend on your ability to write, draw, whatever, but the other half would depend on how accurately you can translate what's in your mind into an expressable format, if that makes sense. Sometimes a mental image can be far too rich or have too many sensory memories (by this I mean images, sounds, smells, etc.) or emotions attached to it to accurately express via a single sense, be it sight (drawn or written expression) or sound (music etc.).

I think your response supports my argument. I mean you say that "half the time it may be sometimes perhaps not possible". Doesn't that mean that many/most of the times it works ok? I can't think of anything else anyways. Art is the most authentic way to experience the inner workings of another person's mind.

[BLauritson]

I meant that having artistic ability or whatever is only half of the picture; oftentimes it can be difficult to express what's in one's mind purely because of the vivid detail of the mental images. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to disprove what you've said or anything, I'm just exploring how easy or difficult it could actually be to express oneself fully.

[calenwen]

“Very few people believe in God,” he replied.

I didn’t see how he could deny the obvious. “Of course they do. Billions of people believe in God.”

The old man leaned toward me, resting a blanketed elbow on the arm of his rocker.
“Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions. A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But your four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.”

I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. “If you asked them, they’d say they believe.”

“They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do.

“Are you saying God doesn’t exist?” I asked, trying to get to the point.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy. If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.”

-God's Debris

Hm....

[Mediator Kam]

Hm....

Trying to make 'senior member' status eh? :-P

[calenwen]

Trying to make 'senior member' status eh? :-P

1. I don't even know how one goes about making "senior member status"

2. I know it's somewhat irrelevant, but I had just read the story and found that passage particularly thought-provoking

[XoX]

I meant that having artistic ability or whatever is only half of the picture; oftentimes it can be difficult to express what's in one's mind purely because of the vivid detail of the mental images. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to disprove what you've said or anything, I'm just exploring how easy or difficult it could actually be to express oneself fully.

To express oneself fully would be really difficult. But to express at least something of your inner world. And with many pieces of art work perhaps a better picture would form. I just can't figure out any better way right now.

[guest32456]

Hi UDP

Hope you are well

Ultimately I can only speak from my direct experience. So you are free to disagree with me. But I would say two things.

1. I firmly believe that if you seek you will find.

2. Sometimes when searching you have to entertain a different worldview.

Take care of yourself,