How cool would it have been to live in the middle ages, but with the internet and computers?Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
How cool would it have been to live in the middle ages, but with the internet and computers?
That has been my dream since birth.
/Don Quixote
The end is nigh
I look at it this way: Se > Si, unvalued Fi, or both...
Jason
Maybe he was just a dick/awesome?
The end is nigh
dick = Se > Si
awesome = unvalued Fi
Jason
I like math; not really as a form of entertainment but a form of creative industry. I love to solve out problems and figure things out and the feeling of that.
Now I really dislike MATH CLASS, its only likeable to me when I can choose to do it rather than be required to do it by the confines of social industry.
I'm better at it than most people, but I don't have exceptional faculty for it and I don't enjoy it most of the time. I do enjoy it when it's connected to physics, then it becomes a matter of expressing the world mathematically. I used to like using numbers, but now I hate them. I like to work in terms of symbols only. I do like mathematically concepts when they really make sense to me. Linear algebra is one area I find relatively enjoyable. Spans, linear independence, and vector spaces make a great deal of sense to me. Basically I really love it when I understand it, but hate it when it's applying thing I have memorized. Usually when the math becomes involved, I sit and sulk and try to think of a clever way to get out of it. Usually this doesn't work and leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but occasionally it does and I get really pleased with my clever dodge of hard work. Computation, whether it be involved calculus, matrix operations, or something else, is really dull for me though. Basically any aspect of math a computer could do sucks. I love clever algebraic tricks.
ENTp Physicist: The Cliche
Arctures: delta just produces boring people
Arctures: but that's how we like it
vero: who needs a real person
vero: That's why I date an SLI
dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si
Kraezz: you just have to do the ****** thing sometimes
Not very, because you still lack modern medicine, in-door plumbing, central heating and air, an overall lack of hygiene, while dealing with religious fanaticism and warped medieval logic. No thank you. Remind me again why it would be cool to live in the middle ages?
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Less math, more kittens
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
lol. The coolness factor of living in the "frikking" middle ages would still supersede all that. Plus religious fanaticism and warped logic aren't so bad when they're on your side.
I was thinking that, but didn't say it.
Quaero Veritas.
This online community already has plenty of religious fanaticism, warped logic and extremely poor hygiene (come to stickam and see). So in at least three respects the middle ages might actually be an improvement.
Yeah, I get the joke, and I don't think that it's so simple either. Sometimes a huge magnification of a few positive factors can make up for a lesser magnification of many smaller negative factors - it depends on what you value.
Jason
Last edited by jason_m; 12-11-2009 at 03:35 AM.
Heres an equation for you....
Middle Ages in Movies/Books >> Real Historical Middle Ages
"Those "realists" who disregard an ILE's dreams as empty and impractical fantasies, will find in Don Quixote an ardent and irreconcilable enemy. "
Last edited by jason_m; 12-11-2009 at 08:35 AM.
I thought about this thread, and I think the reason that fewer Alpha NTs interested in math than I expected has less to do with the nature of mathematics and more to do with the kind of mathematics that most people have been exposed to. Assuming that most people here have only been exposed to it, high school mathematics is more of an exercise in rote learning and problem-solving; it's about memorizing rules, definitions and procedures, and then applying them. Higher level math is more of an exercise in logic; it's similar to learning formal logic. Just take a look at an introductory book on group theory or foundations of mathematics to see what I mean... (Of course, everyone has a different sense of what type of "logic" that they like, but what I'm saying is that there is more to mathematics than what some people realize...)
I think that there is probably another reason as well. For the sake of argument, let's say that the large majority of mathematicians are NTs. This does not necessarily mean that the large majority of NTs enjoy math -- i.e., if you are a mathematician, then you are probably logical and creative, but if you are logical and creative, you don't necessarily enjoy math.
The saddest ESFj
...
math can choke a gargantuan phallus
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" isand not
I actually like math but more of the spatial geometry stuff....
What I hate is doing math as a "chore" for class and such, I could imagine myself as one of the people who did geometry and shit for fun if I was in classical greece before it was required ciriculumn that got pounded into you as part of your required education and pathway towards becoming a productive citizen.
I think people are so angsty against math because they were forced to learn it, if they weren't (forced to learn it) they would either simply not care, or would be interested in it.
I mean it seems like its not enough for people to simply say "That doesn't interest me", they seem like its their motive to weed it out from society like some kind of hiersey and if you are a math/science/engineering major your a clergy in that hieretical base but you've sold out because you can make more money in the work world, but by no means is any math/science/engineering major actually interested in such fields... thats absurd, those majors are for people that wish to become tools to make a more hefty paycheck. Of course, I think this all stems the bad taste math class leaves in their mouth from our grand system of public education and the whole idealized portrait of 1950's america were the nerds do math/physics and the popular kids go to the football game and root for the hometeam.
Heres your starter kit on how to talk about studying math without looking like a nerd.
Person: Hey what major are you
You: Engineering
Person: Do you like it
You: Not really there are a lot of nerds and asians in my class
Person: Lol, yea but you make a lot of money
You: Yea
What not to do.
Person: Hey what major are you
You: Engineering
Person: Do you like it
You: Yea, currently I am working on a new propulsion system to increase the efficiency of solid rocket engines by superfluidity of helium
Person: Uh huh?
You: Oh sorry didn't realize, um lets say you have a normal rocket booster..................
Person: Ummmmmm.......... (akward vacuous valley-girlish/dude-bro gaze)
You: Thats fine we don't have to talk about it if it doesn't interest you
Person: Ugh are you calling me dumb?
You: No I just assumed you weren't interested in discussing this
Person: Cause I am not dumb, your a nerd, I am going to get laid, have fun with your propulsion system
You: Uh....................................
At all means establish the inherent nerdiness of your major so that you are both on the same level and be sure to distinguish the nerds from yourself, this proves an effective communication tool in establishing an unspoken contract between you and your audience. Any attempt to ignore this crucial step could result in disasterous results, any attempt to simply show a substantial motive beside "making money", "getting laid", or "being a badass" will be met as either emo or incomphresensible resulting in a difference to an idealized 1950's portrait of society. Since engineering will not get you laid and will not make you a badass, you obviously must make money, so that you can buy things to become the badass, and be a badass to get laid. Simply being yourself is purely emo though and should be avoid, especially any attempt to connect with your true motives and intentions in a diplomatic but realistic way. Attempts at diplomacy are merely signs of weakness that must be meet with more force in order to win rather than compromise.
Lol wtf, sorry went off on like 5 tangents hahahah, I don't give a fuck.
Last edited by male; 01-26-2010 at 12:51 AM.
yup, thats true for me. being forced and having shitty teachers, it almost seems a requirement to make math boring. there have been some good teachers who have sparked somewhat of an interest, only to have it put out by the next.
<Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is
I was always good in math, and interested in it, but I got bored with it. I guess I outmatured the alpha NT mathematical mindset.
QFT.
This is what I hate about the our education model in general. For instance, I taught myself a lot of computer science (programming, web design, etc.) before I ever took a computer science class, and I loved it; it was like a fascinating puzzle I couldn't get enough of. Then, one day, I signed up for a computer science course. After the first couple weeks, I realized that if I'd been introduced to computer science through school, I probably wouldn't hated it. Which got me thinking -- what if I hadn't been introduced to math, science, history, etc. through school?
Same goes for anything. Hell, socionics is really interesting, but can you imagine having to learn socionics for school and get graded on it?
The education system makes math especially painful. Potentially, it can be a creative challenge; solving a math problem can be like constructing a work of art. But the education system chews math up and spits out a bunch of mundane rules. Of course, there are some people who can go to class, learn those rules, and rediscover the creative element of math -- I envy those people. For the rest of us, math = memorizing empty rules + internalizing repetitive procedures.
FWIW, my dad is a math teacher, but I don't think he really discovered his passion for math until he dropped out of school for a while.
EIE-Ni
lol actually I'm thinking of being a math teacher in case being a programmer doesn't do it for me. Math carries a certain stigma in American culture for some reason, and it's probably tied to our lack of respect for education in general. Math is way more important in Chinese culture, and it shows. It's not that their kids are smarter, but their numbering system is just easier to learn. It's so easy that their kids get at least a year ahead of American kids in math just from having a simpler number system. ex: they say "four tens" instead of forty.
The saddest ESFj
...
Hmm, lucky bastards!
The French number system gets really weird. For instance, 94 is "four twenties fourteen." I wonder if French kids ever get beyond arithmetic...:wink:
EIE-Ni
I agree that the educational system is the primary problem here. I was the same way with grammar and languages -- it was intensely boring in school, but when I rediscovered it after graduating, I found out how fascinating and fun it was.
I suspect the school system is Te-oriented, which explains why Alpha NTs are good at school, but find it mind-numbingly boring.
How do Gamma NTs feel about school?
Quaero Veritas.
I can't imagine learning math in german
They say numbers like
1-10
one, two, etc....
11 and 12
have special one syllable words
13-19
literally you are saying 3-10, 4-10, 5-10
20's, 30's etc up to 100
literally you are saying 1 and 20, 2 and 20, 3 and 20
100's etc up to 1000's
literally you are saying 1-100 1 and 10 (for 111), or 5-100 4 and 50 (for 554)
you get the point from their....
german is very mechanistic, you have to like mentally build the picture of the number in your head and assemble it on the spot to even make sense of how to speak the damn thing. Generally the entire flow of the german language is like this, it just becomes kind of compulsive assembly of peices in a predetermined order with a lot of visual imagery, lol seems so german to me.
Yea this is about right and I used to love physics when I was a freshmen... but after approaching the ass-end of completing a physics major I feel like my passion for natural science has been drained from me a little. Luckly there is carl sagan's cosmos...
But I actually got introduced to math pretty early I remember... as a kid I asked my dad why they always have letters in all the complex math stuff... and he told me what a variable was.... I used to do that stuff all the time (asking questions about random stuff), cause I was just uh generally curious, but in class it always felt like such a burden.
That's not true. I know mathematicians of many different types; in fact, I'd say there is *almost* zero correlation between type and interest in math. Actually, I'm not really interested in math myself anymore. There are so many other areas you can applyand
to, but within a certain area of interest or community type-related tendencies are very obvious.
This is why it's hard to type someone of a profession or community one isn't familiar with, because you have to be familiar with the community-based language to extract the type-related emphasis.
An ESE friend of mine is a mathematician, for example. He is better than me at math, but there are plenty of times when he is anything but "logical". He mainly does math because it's fun/challenging.
I like math. I don't like it when it's too simple, like algebra, because then it's boring, and sometimes for certain things (like matrices) just too stupid for me to care about. I might not like it when it gets really complicated because I might feel that it's too arbitrary, but I haven't gotten far enough in math studies (not even close) for me to reach that level of math yet. But I did really enjoy calc 1 and 2. A lot of that is like puzzle solving or something. Enough complexity to be fun, but explicit and fit-together-y enough to enjoy for that reason.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
It doesn't surprise me that NTs are not usually the ones who are best at math. (That's why I said, "for the sake of argument.") What does surprise me is that you say that there is no correlation between math and personality type. I thought logical or maybe intuitive types would form a good-sized part of the professional mathematics community, and that there would be at least some correlation between NTs and math...That's not true. I know mathematicians of many different types; in fact, I'd say there is *almost* zero correlation between type and interest in math. Actually, I'm not really interested in math myself anymore. There are so many other areas you can apply
This is why it's hard to type someone of a profession or community one isn't familiar with, because you have to be familiar with the community-based language to extract the type-related emphasis.
An ESE friend of mine is a mathematician, for example. He is better than me at math, but there are plenty of times when he is anything but "logical". He mainly does math because it's fun/challenging.
What I found when I was a computer science major was that there might be a number of different types majoring in computer science, but there was some pattern regarding those who were really passionate about it...
well, there might be some correlation but it's very small IME. Just off the top of my head I know personally an ESE, ILE, LII, ESI, IEI, ILI, IEI/EIE, EIE, LSI, LSI, SEI, ILE, LSI or EIE, LII, IEE, ESI, LII, ILE, SEI, LIE etc. all in pure math. It seems like introverted logical types are most common, esp. LSI and ILI. I'd guess the most there is of any particular type is something like 10%, and probably much less. Logical types definitely predominate, however, maybe 2/3. But then again, most mathematicians are male.
It's not so bad. You should see the danish number system. It's like a mixture of french and german, completely nonsensical. For example, their way of saying 51 is "http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/ts/language/number/danish.html" ->
51 enoghalvtreds* 1 and (2½ times 20)
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
A bit of a side note, but the names of numbers aren't too relevant as long as a place value system is constant in the numerical representation. Even in English, there are some odd numbers. Eleven? While it doesn't have any name indicative of its place value, anyone fluent in English and is familiar with place value will clearly recognize that eleven represents 10+1. Thirteen is clearly 10+3. Connections in the brain are made between the name of the number and it's value, not between the number and the most literal interpretation of its name. (For those familiar with French, any French speaker will clearly see quatre-vingt quatorze(literally, Four-Twenty Fourteen) and 90+4, not 80+14. or 4x20+14) The problem only arises for those learning another language.
I agree, MatthewZ. Names, whatever their literal meaning, eventually become mere labels.
Quaero Veritas.
Why would we see 90+4? That's not what the connotation is at all and only an anglophone would make it so. The connotation IS 4x20+14 which, visually, you see 94. I know what you're trying to get at, that when you hear 4x20+14 you're thinking of the number 94 and not actually the meaning of the word, but we all ask the question at some point (Why is it quatre-vingt? Why is it soixante douze, quatre-vingt douze?). For the most part you ignore the literal context of what you're saying in favour of what you mean, but a french speaker is not going to think of 94 as 90+4.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
Math bores me.
Well I think eventually it all falls into place like this, but an intuitive language helps make the process of learning quicker.
The role of language really isn't just a bunch of estoric nonsense, if you listen to long arduous speeches by german people they will commonly have to pause at the end of long sentences to think about what word to say at the end since in alot of large sentences in german you will have to put a verb at the end describing the actions beind done to a variety of different objects.
The flow of this makes the speaker forcibly recall the interaction of all the objects at the end of a sentence. At first while they were speaking they may have been aware of it, but towards the end they must recall what they were thinking, either that or hold onto that information during the speech.
really the flow of language does affect the way people think, ideas in essence though are not bound to language... for example geometry probably is more useful from spatial intelligence and picturing things in your head than the use of language.
I think language is a good way of helping people hold onto their thoughts and engage them in thinking, and basically for this reason it helps people learning the concept of numbers to grasp onto it slower or quicker... its just the same as geometry, it doesn't help to describe geometry with words as much as it does to draw a diagram.... if this holds true for geometry why is there no reason to think that a different language could help someone grasp an idea faster.
It's kinda odd, I've had trouble learning it in the past, but I love it regardless. When it comes to exact precision and nitty gritty details, I'm like fuck, but still manage to get it done with effort. I focus more on the actual concepts of math then the details; which throws me off from time to time.
You're a native French speaker?
If only more people would recognize that, we'd have such miracles as a quarter of students understanding calculus as opposed to the 2% who understand it today.
Last edited by tcaudilllg; 02-07-2010 at 11:18 PM.
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