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Thread: Please type my 88yr old mil

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    Default Please type my 88yr old mil

    she has lived a long life but the crux of her personality has stayed the same. i've known her for almost 20 yrs and probably know her better than she knows herself.

    she doesn't know herself because she has always believed that societies ideas, especially ones from "experts," are the ones that know best. she has always been very elitist and class conscious and very much to the extreme about it. to the point of "eating pizza" is for lower class citizens and she has gone on and on about who has what job and rank in society with all of her relatives and friends.

    here is a recent pic:



    she was a school teacher but wanted to be a doctor. she sees children as "clean slates" that she needs to forcefeed info, knowledge and ways of behaving that coincide with societies ways. even though she got all the way to writing her dissertation for her Phd, she doesn't actually believe that people are individuals with individual potentials and characteristics. she knows a lot of psychology and education stuff but is not good at applying it irl.

    she is very much into history and it's cultural significance on and in the world. she has many "things" that remind her of some kind of cultural history.

    overall, a melancholic type. prone to believing people are not able to handle life's problems. "the poor mexicans." etc...

    because of this, she did a lot of missionary style stuff with poor mexicans and american indian children. she took her own children with her on many of these expeditions. kind of social worker like. as well as advocacy and doing "sit ins" in the 60's.

    she also traveled back to England and all over the world every summer and took her kids with her to teach them about other cultures. anything less would be "low class." especially the fact that her son is heavily into sports.

    she has a strong will with what she believes is right. very independent. but not a strong physical will. very hesitant with her physical movement of her body. but will grab a child's hand to show them something she deems important for them to know whether they want to or not.

    she is very naive in understanding that anyone could ever do anything that was not morally correct. very naive about this. so much so that she has numerous cons take advantage of her and one for many years (we finallly put a stop to it).

    she is of the mindset of peace over war, no matter who or what is happening in the world. she lived through ww11 and knew many who died. but also sees how the "other side" are victims needing "help."

    she has been the BIGGEST spendthrift you'll ever come across. to the point of plugging her sink drain to catch the couple of drops of water to use later. and never, ever, ever would or did buy anything new for herself. garage sales or she used things until they fell apart and still used them. somewhere in her psyche she believes she doesn't deserve anything. that also includes pain relief. she is in a lot of pain right now and will NOT take anything, anything for it at all. and when i say in a lot of pain, whatever is going on may be the thing that kills her, literally.

    as far as sex, she's not been a sexual person. she use to see sex with her husband more as her wife duty.

    now that dementia has kicked in and we are taking care of her, she is content to stay in her bedroom, read the newspaper and nonfiction mysteries all day. she has one old friend that comes to visit maybe once a week. oh and she has never really cared for pets or having pets inside the house. the things that she "expects" us to do and take care of that she can't are keeping a clean house (very clean, nothing out of it's place), being productive with our actions, taking care of her plants and trees in the backyard and being quiet.

    i have mostly seen her as INFj, but with my own understanding of the difference between Beta NF and Delta NF changing, I am not sure if she could be INFp instead. Whatch'all think?
    Last edited by dbmmama; 06-08-2008 at 07:44 AM. Reason: fix link

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    From the point of view of a socionics type, your description of her seems contradictory to me. I think that part of your description reflects your interpretation of her motivations, not necessarily the way she'd describe her motivations herself. In fact, you make it very clear when you say, right in the beginning, "i've known her for almost 20 yrs and probably know her better than she knows herself."
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Sounds LSI to me. EIE would be my second choice. If Delta, then LSE.
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    Do you think she's an enneagram 3?
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    I think she's EIE.
    I really can't see INFJ. The whole "forcefeeding" info to children is more ENFJ than INFJ, i think. Like, I actually think that children can teach me things that I don't know or that I've forgotten. Also, the way in which she thinks about/likes to help struggling populations- I don't actually know any INFJs who do that. The collection of various items, the obsession with not wasting money on water, the views on sex and societal norms are all aspects I've seen very strongly in unhealthy ENFJs.
    Is she obsessed with cleanliness? And does she transfer her feelings toward other people in a very openly un-apologetic way?
    EII; E6(w5)

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    i think so far i might agree with ritella on this one.
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    Yes, I agree that EII seems extremely unlikely for her, based on your description of her. She sounds like she has valued Se, Ti/Fe, and unvalued Ne.
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    By "obsession with cleanliness," I meant whether she judges other people by how clean they keep their house/ how domestic they are. In my experience, that's sort of token behavior of unhealthy HA in EIEs. If she's judgemental about this, than I would say EIE. If she is domestic, herself, but doesn't judge other people by it, then I would think LSI could be more probable.
    Also, the fact that she's telling you about her sex life?! EHW, GROSS. Any delta would probably tell you this iff you asked, and in a very one-on-one, this is private info kind of way. On the other hand, I actually know an EIE who openly "volunteers" information on this sort of thing in a very "everyone thinks I'm aristocratic, but I know how to 'keep it real,' see?" way. This always causes a reaction in me of "TMI, TMI, TMI. Thanks for traumatizing me. That's not being down to earth, that's just inappropriate."
    EII; E6(w5)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    By "obsession with cleanliness," I meant whether she judges other people by how clean they keep their house/ how domestic they are. In my experience, that's sort of token behavior of unhealthy HA in EIEs. If she's judgemental about this, than I would say EIE. If she is domestic, herself, but doesn't judge other people by it, then I would think LSI could be more probable.
    Also, the fact that she's telling you about her sex life?! EHW, GROSS. Any delta would probably tell you this iff you asked, and in a very one-on-one, this is private info kind of way. On the other hand, I actually know an EIE who openly "volunteers" information on this sort of thing in a very "everyone thinks I'm aristocratic, but I know how to 'keep it real,' see?" way. This always causes a reaction in me of "TMI, TMI, TMI. Thanks for traumatizing me. That's not being down to earth, that's just inappropriate."
    i love this description because it's so true to my own experiences with EIEs heh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    If she is domestic, herself, but doesn't judge other people by it, then I would think LSI could be more probable.
    I think LSI's could judge others like this, though perhaps they'd be less adamant about it.
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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    I was thinking the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    From the point of view of a socionics type, your description of her seems contradictory to me. I think that part of your description reflects your interpretation of her motivations, not necessarily the way she'd describe her motivations herself. In fact, you make it very clear when you say, right in the beginning, "i've known her for almost 20 yrs and probably know her better than she knows herself."
    i hear ya on this one and understand your point. to me, it's a matter of her not not knowing her reasons for things but the reasons behind the reasons. she doesn't know those. those kinds of things are what i'm good at seeing in others.

    we've had numerous lengthy conversations over the years as well as a lot of ups and downs for me to see what is going on with her. trust me, i question people's reasons behind their reasons automatically, either in my mind or to them directly. and i do it objectively. much is revealed in this, i get right to the "heart" or the "point" of why someone is behaving the way they are. to the point of people thinking me a "guru" or "freak" depending on the perspective. THAT'S my psychic stuff or what i call psychic because it flashes into my mind very quickly.

    i will elaborate on her more in the continuing replies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    I think she's EIE.
    I really can't see INFJ. The whole "forcefeeding" info to children is more ENFJ than INFJ, i think. Like, I actually think that children can teach me things that I don't know or that I've forgotten. Also, the way in which she thinks about/likes to help struggling populations- I don't actually know any INFJs who do that. The collection of various items, the obsession with not wasting money on water, the views on sex and societal norms are all aspects I've seen very strongly in unhealthy ENFJs.
    Is she obsessed with cleanliness? And does she transfer her feelings toward other people in a very openly un-apologetic way?
    all of this sounds right to me. not necessarily her feelings but her beliefs, yes, very much so. but if she's EIE, they may be one and the same...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    By "obsession with cleanliness," I meant whether she judges other people by how clean they keep their house/ how domestic they are. In my experience, that's sort of token behavior of unhealthy HA in EIEs. If she's judgemental about this, than I would say EIE. If she is domestic, herself, but doesn't judge other people by it, then I would think LSI could be more probable.
    Also, the fact that she's telling you about her sex life?! EHW, GROSS. Any delta would probably tell you this iff you asked, and in a very one-on-one, this is private info kind of way. On the other hand, I actually know an EIE who openly "volunteers" information on this sort of thing in a very "everyone thinks I'm aristocratic, but I know how to 'keep it real,' see?" way. This always causes a reaction in me of "TMI, TMI, TMI. Thanks for traumatizing me. That's not being down to earth, that's just inappropriate."
    sounds right again, very judgmental in the cleanliness/orderliness of others.

    she's only mentioned something about her sex life in passing a couple of times. i just remember everything people tell me about themselves. no, she's not down to earth about it, more inappropriate overall compared to others... it doesn't bother me personally. because i find anything anyone tells me about themselves fascinating, i don't judge it as weird or gross or anything like that. it's all fascinating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I've known a few old people who are very conscious of not wasting anything as well, and it's probably more because they lived through both the Great Depression and WW2 than anything else.
    yes, i agree. she has lived through both and is one reason i know she does this. the one thing that strikes me about it though is her uppityness about judging others that don't do things "her way." and this is just one of the things that is "her way." just like the cleanliness/orderliness thing.

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    another thing...her daughter, my sil, is DEFINITELY EIE, a very unhealthy one. Rosie O'Donnell victim, out there, feminazi, lesbian, in your face about it thing.

    i never really saw them as the same personality but now that i think about it, when they get together they do have this symbionic thing where they "get" each other.

    yes, i can see it.

    that would surely not make me like them! unless, i am that way with my own "agenda" and don't see it in myself. but there are just so many things i do the exact opposite of her and for the opposite of reasons.

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    hmmm so when I posted a rant about my friends a few weeks ago, I reminded you of her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    hmmm so when I posted a rant about my friends a few weeks ago, I reminded you of her?
    sorry hellothere i didn't read that post. do you have a link?

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    here:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...highlight=band

    you said:
    my mil is definitely EII. no question....what SO EVER. and this sounds like her to a T! even your quote screams of her way of seeing things. yes, don't doubt your type based on individual events. overall, things fall into place for a reason and your reason for this thing that happened sounds very EII to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    ah yes, thanks for refreshing my memory.

    it was the overall fact that you wanted to be productive over enjoying the food. my mil is like that. she values Si in that she does enjoy food but productivity always will come first before any kind of enjoyment. she is "proper" that way. not meaning you are or not but she sees eating as a productive activity for a person's body.

    i don't know what that means right now. i'm just trying to sort this out. your post just sounded like her...she'd rather everything be productive somehow than enjoyable.

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    i just read this thread on switzerland and from the op's description, that is my mil. if the essence of switzerland is delta, then my mil is delta.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=19250

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    If she's delta, I'd suggest looking at LSE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    If she's delta, I'd suggest looking at LSE.
    could be, work, work, work, that's her motto. could be. might be why she studied psych but didn't ever DO anything with it...but she's such a pushover when it comes to changing her mind about those psych things. maybe it fits.

    when i was over there and cooking dinner one time, i had a small pot on a big burner and i knew it wasn't "efficient" energywise but i had a reason for what i was doing. she noticed and that was her comment to me, the only comment and it came with an explanation.

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    Yeah, that sounds more LSE than EII.

    I've never met a female LSE who had been raised to behave the way she was. It's interesting to think of how they'd turn out... maybe pretending that women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands but obviously being the one in charge in the couple, like my SLE mom?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Yeah, that sounds more LSE than EII.

    I've never met a female LSE who had been raised to behave the way she was. It's interesting to think of how they'd turn out... maybe pretending that women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands but obviously being the one in charge in the couple, like my SLE mom?
    yes, sounds like her. in charge and yet submissive because that is a wife's "role" so to speak.

    she went on in college to her phd because all of her hippie friends were into pop psychology in the 60s. she flipped and flopped and never was consistent with anything in her parenting but the house was immaculate, the dinner was on the table at 5pm with a certain dish for each night being the norm, the garden was all in neat rows and she saved every dime by buying things either on sale or at garage sales. (think dick and jane work, work, work and are happy as they work, work, work)

    i just recently had to throw away things that were so old, tattered, torn that she bought at garage sales 20 years ago. they were disgusting...but "good enough" to her. all that mattered was that they "worked." and she even kept the old vacuum that didn't actually work but she kept using it anyway because she didn't want to buy another.

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    dbmamma, she sounds like a rational delta. delta values all over the place. i disagree with those who are saying beta....there's an Fi valuing element in your description that contradicts beta.

    let's not forget that as you age, you become more balanced. what type do you think her husband was? and what type are you? that might suggest a good double-check.

    fwiw you seem beta.

    but they way you describe her makes her seem like either an LSE who was highly dualized or an EII who was highly dualized in life.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    yes, sounds like her. in charge and yet submissive because that is a wife's "role" so to speak.
    gross

    Anyways, at the risk of pissing people off I'll just say that this is a combination of rationality, aristocracy, and neuroticism.

    she flipped and flopped and never was consistent with anything in her parenting
    weak Fi

    but the house was immaculate, the dinner was on the table at 5pm with a certain dish for each night being the norm, the garden was all in neat rows
    Si creative

    and she saved every dime by buying things either on sale or at garage sales.
    Te + Si

    (think dick and jane work, work, work and are happy as they work, work, work)
    Delta Delta Delta Delta

    i just recently had to throw away things that were so old, tattered, torn that she bought at garage sales 20 years ago. they were disgusting...but "good enough" to her. all that mattered was that they "worked." and she even kept the old vacuum that didn't actually work but she kept using it anyway because she didn't want to buy another.
    Most of this paragraph just sounds neurotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    dbmamma, she sounds like a rational delta. delta values all over the place. i disagree with those who are saying beta....there's an Fi valuing element in your description that contradicts beta.

    let's not forget that as you age, you become more balanced. what type do you think her husband was? and what type are you? that might suggest a good double-check.

    fwiw you seem beta.

    but they way you describe her makes her seem like either an LSE who was highly dualized or an EII who was highly dualized in life.
    I think you're attributing things to Fi that aren't solely related to Fi. I think aristocracy + rationality + neuroticism explains a lot of the "stick stuck of one's ass" stuff that you appear to be attributing to Fi, if I'm understanding you correctly. (Yes, I'm basing this in part on things you've said about Fi and your dad, and I don't think we came to an agreement then so I what good could come of trying to do so again... just thought I'd mention that I disagree with your idea of Fi, but I'm willing to agree to disagree.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I think you're attributing things to Fi that aren't solely related to Fi. I think aristocracy + rationality + neuroticism explains a lot of the "stick stuck of one's ass" stuff that you appear to be attributing to Fi, if I'm understanding you correctly. (Yes, I'm basing this in part on things you've said about Fi and your dad, and I don't think we came to an agreement then so I what good could come of trying to do so again... just thought I'd mention that I disagree with your idea of Fi, but I'm willing to agree to disagree.)
    i didn't even give an example, joy. lol.

    all that helping of people seems Fi sort of. FiNe. sort of a missionary quality or something. plus she VI's EII.

    as far as my father goes, i've changed my mind since then....whatever he does, it's manipulative and although it may be fed by Fi doesn't exemplify Fi.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    lol okay. sorry.

    (I still think she's LSE though. Ni PoLR > Se PoLR.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    dbmamma, she sounds like a rational delta. delta values all over the place. i disagree with those who are saying beta....there's an Fi valuing element in your description that contradicts beta.

    let's not forget that as you age, you become more balanced. what type do you think her husband was? and what type are you? that might suggest a good double-check.

    fwiw you seem beta.

    but they way you describe her makes her seem like either an LSE who was highly dualized or an EII who was highly dualized in life.
    for one, i'm using people i know and trying to figure out their types to help me figure out my own...

    i'm not quite sure about mil and her duelization stuff yet. i'm guessing at her husband's type as i did not meet him. he died in 85 a couple of years before meeting my husband. my best guess from what i've learned of him is istp or he could have been the estj with her being infj.

    well, as far as balanced, i think she got "nuttier" as she aged. of course that's coming from my perception of nutty.

    the whole "duty" thing was strong in her from a little girl. you do as you're told. period. there isn't even a thought in her head that you would do otherwise. and when someone does, she is bewildered, very much. all of her childhood stories are about duty and doing as you're told of some sort.

    when i told her that i knew as a kid MY OWN THOUGHTS AND DESIRES on things and rebelled about being told what to do, she thought (and still thinks) i have a mental disorder of some kind. she thinks this of her son as well. she took him to different psychiatrists when he was a kid to FIX him and when the psychiatrist told her that HER CONTROLLING NATURE was actually the problem, she fired him and moved on. so, my husband "hid" in books and music is get away from her.

    so, when i came along and said to him "be yourself and 'screw me' if i don't like you for who you are." he was finally able to breathe and relax and truly let his guard down.

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    She sounds like someone I would argue endlessly with... an 8's worst nightmare. My mom is like that, but not as bad.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    well db from what you just said LSE seems more likely. def delta quadra values.

    my mother is LSE, too. and she can be pretty rigid. on the other hand, she's about as true blue as they come. utterly reliable. my mom, not the greatest at the emotional side of parenting, with the patience and sympathy one expects....but she made sure she put money in the bank, was extremely frugal, and had a pretty stable outlook.

    if you are IEI, then i could see how your mil could get to you. if you are EIE, then i guess that would make you superegos, which also makes sense.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    lol okay. sorry.

    (I still think she's LSE though. Ni PoLR > Se PoLR.)
    she does seem dualized though doesn't she?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I think so. The neuroticism makes it sort of hard to tell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post


    She sounds like someone I would argue endlessly with... an 8's worst nightmare. My mom is like that, but not as bad.
    oh trust me, we've had our fair share over the years!

    even though i disagree with almost everything she is, does, believes...., i still respect her as a person and now especially in her last days, i have gone out way out of my way to do things that respect her wishes. which are actually hard for me, but, i couldn't not do them. i am very respectful of people's individual desires in life, even when they mean not seeing me ever again. (which she has professed.) that's why my husband took over her care and when we go over there now, he brings her her food, etc...

    my husband just thinks she's jealous because i have a HAPPY marriage, a HAPPY life, a HAPPY disposition. i DO with my children what she learned about in school and they are turning out the way she wished her own did, respectful, secure, happy, confident.

    as i've talked with her over the years, i hear the melancholy about not being able to live the life she wished for and she sees that i am.

    that has been me. i knew what i wanted from a very early age and went after it and got it and keep going after what i want and will and continue to get it. i play and have fun with my kids. she never did.

    one time when i took her to the hospital and i had my baby with me, i was playing with the baby on the foot of her bed and she said "you're really a natural mother." and i smiled and said, "yes, thank you." i think that was the only compliment i ever received from her. i also knew that she said it because she thought she was going to die that day.

    i stopped arguing with her many years ago. i now send her Love because I believe that is what she really needs/wants, is to be loved for being herself too. it's not worth arguing anymore, i wish her Peace as she journeys through the next transition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    well db from what you just said LSE seems more likely. def delta quadra values.

    my mother is LSE, too. and she can be pretty rigid. on the other hand, she's about as true blue as they come. utterly reliable. my mom, not the greatest at the emotional side of parenting, with the patience and sympathy one expects....but she made sure she put money in the bank, was extremely frugal, and had a pretty stable outlook.

    if you are IEI, then i could see how your mil could get to you. if you are EIE, then i guess that would make you superegos, which also makes sense.
    she did put money in the bank and was extremely frugal but had anything but a stable outlook. her outlook changed with the tide or winds or whatever. but i may be referring to how she handled the emotional side of relationships, because i care more about that in my parenting.

    IF i'm beta, iei is the least likely i think. i'm just too direct and down to earth. i may "get" Ni stuff and may "go there." but, it's just that, "GO there." like it's a place to GO TO and BE IN while i move my body irl.

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    It sounds like you've had a stressful time but made your peace with it in the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    she did put money in the bank and was extremely frugal but had anything but a stable outlook. her outlook changed with the tide or winds or whatever. but i may be referring to how she handled the emotional side of relationships, because i care more about that in my parenting.

    IF i'm beta, iei is the least likely i think. i'm just too direct and down to earth. i may "get" Ni stuff and may "go there." but, it's just that, "GO there." like it's a place to GO TO and BE IN while i move my body irl.
    are you leaning toward any type? i'm not sure why i said IEI. i actually have thought more EIE, you remind me of an EIE friend i've had for years. she's become progressively more Se strengthened over time and i get somewhat of a similar flavor from you but what do i know? lol

    sounds like your handle your mil pretty perfectly .... don't see how she could complain.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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