Ezra's Gamma

[Joy]

.

[Elro]

A very well-reasoned argument - impossible to pick apart.

[marooned]

this is why we needed discojoe's pie button.

[Joy]

Fuck it. I've stated my opinion and have no obligation to elaborate if I don't feel like it. You people can think what you want. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

[marooned]

Fuck it. I've stated my opinion and have no obligation to elaborate if I don't feel like it. You people can think what you want. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I didn't mean my post in a way making fun of your post... it simply came to mind.

[Joy]

I didn't mean my response towards you... more elro and glamorama

[implied]

A very well-reasoned argument - impossible to pick apart.

duh, cause he values , , , & . that not good enough for you?

[Gilly]

Joy you should understand that it seems a bit silly to post such a declaration without any intent of informing people of the rationale behind it.

[Joy]

Do you think I care right now?

[Gilly]

Do you think I care right now?

I was trying to help you, actually. It might do you some good to see the world from where someone else stands instead of being so goddamn reactive.

[implied]

i love ifmd95 so much.

[akeaneau]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on socionics, but I just cannot see how Ezra is SEE. That would mean Ti is his PoLR, and that's just doesn't seem to match the content of his posts. It seems to me that he uses Ti alot

It would also mean that he is my conflictor. I don't really see that. Maybe I haven't been around enough, but he seems to get along ok with most LII's. Of course, not everyone accepts inter-type relations...

[Ezra]

glamourama, I'll explain it to you in PM. Last night, I thought everyone I cared who thought I was SEE actually did think I was (though I still need to discuss it with niffweed). Most of these people came to this conclusion themselves. Now I realise that I want to explain it to you, for whatever reason I can't explain.

duh, cause he values , , , & . that not good enough for you?

For you, it seems that this kind of argument is good enough.

[liveandletlive]

joy what made u decide this? ive talked to him about his type and im still between SLE and SEE for him so im curious to hear your argument.

[Ezra]

joy what made u decide this? ive talked to him about his type and im still between SLE and SEE for him so im curious to hear your argument.

I'm forwarding my PM to glamourama to you. That has some of Joy's arguments in.

[Gilly]

Let me see it too, por favor.

[Minde]

...wouldn't that mean Ezra supervises me? If I'm EII, that is.

I honestly don't feel supervised at all. And I don't really see the strong Fi, either (provided I have a decently accurate understanding of Fi).

[strrrng]

Fuck it. I've stated my opinion and have no obligation to elaborate if I don't feel like it. You people can think what you want. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Then don't make some dumbass claim about it in public.

btw, nice demonstration of how you're Fe - promoting an opinion to make an effect, then bitching when there is external discord

[FDG]

btw, nice demonstration of how you're Fe - promoting an opinion to make an effect, then bitching when there is external discord

Most definitely.

[UDP]

...wouldn't that mean Ezra supervises me? If I'm EII, that is.

I honestly don't feel supervised at all. And I don't really see the strong Fi, either (provided I have a decently accurate understanding of Fi).

Do you see him as your conflictor? You said before you did not, I believe.
Hmm, interesting point. Who DO you feel supervised by?

I can't say I "feel supervised" by anyone on this forum.

[strrrng]

Gamma probably makes more sense. What about LIE as another consideration?

not enough Ni

[Elro]

I think there's an argument there for Ezra being Ti PoLR. However, I'm not sure I see the creative Fi. (In other words, I see what could be called poor Ti, but I don't see valued Fi.) If I am ILE, that may just be function-blindness on my part... But even so, I'd be happy to hear someone's argument for it. Another hesitation I have for considering Ezra as SEE is, as glamourama said, his dislike of how Beta is stereotypically portrayed. From some of his recent posts it seems like he doesn't really understand Ti. He seems to equate Ti with simple closed-mindedness - of course looking at it that way would make someone not like it.

[strrrng]

flawed conceptions of beta (all negative, of course), with ezra using those misconceptions to type himself, whilst portraying gamma and its values in an overly favorable (and IMO not entirely true) light (not surprising, considering that most of the "arguments" for his SEE-ness have come from supposed gammas on this forum.)

no surprise there lol. It seems that the same type of stuff has contributed to Joy's self-typing of ENTj.

[strrrng]

Yeah, I'll admit that the negative or flawed Beta stereotypes used to make me feel rather badly about myself, and even lead me to believe that I am a bad person because I am Beta (as crazy as that sounds!). Because of those negative portrayals I didn't feel like I even identified with being Beta. :-/

Too bad I don't care enough or feel like I have enough knowledge of Socionics to argue what I believe.

what's wrong with being an emotionally-unstable rape victim???

[hellothere]

not enough Ni

according to some objective standard of how much Ni an Ni-ego type should have, or relative to how much Si he uses?

[strrrng]

according to some objective standard of how much Ni an Ni-ego type should have, or relative to how much Si he uses?

based on the fact that he doesn't give Ni interpretations. I don't see him use it at all, really. He's not that abstract imo.

[Ms. Kensington]

based on the fact that he doesn't give Ni interpretations. I don't see him use it at all, really. He's not that abstract imo.

lol.

in other news, i havent read much of ezra's posts, but he is very reactive, and kinda reminds me of gilly in that way. I think I've seen him post in the style of making arguments and in demanding arguments.. i dont think i've seen it enough to say its strong or weak though. Seems like its in the mushy middle in the land of typing factors.

[strrrng]

lol.

in other news, i havent read much of ezra's posts, but he is very reactive, and kinda reminds me of gilly in that way. I think I've seen him post in the style of making arguments and in demanding arguments.. i dont think i've seen it enough to say its strong or weak though. Seems like its in the mushy middle in the land of typing factors.

Ni people are more contextually-oriented. They deal with ideas by shifting frameworks and whatnot. He seems more absolute.

[strrrng]

*sigh*

Wrong.

lol, I wasn't referring specifically to you.

[Ms. Kensington]

Ni people are more contextually-oriented. They deal with ideas by shifting frameworks and whatnot. He seems more absolute.

thanks, btw i wasn't saying anything about "abstract" being too .. abstract. Just laugh a lot at anything that could be seen as socially awk.

[hellothere]

based on the fact that he doesn't give Ni interpretations. I don't see him use it at all, really. He's not that abstract imo.

okay fair enough, I think I agree with you on this.

[Ezra]

And I don't really see the strong Fi, either (provided I have a decently accurate understanding of Fi).

What's your conception of Fi?

He seems to equate Ti with simple closed-mindedness - of course looking at it that way would make someone not like it.

Dubya tee eff; I dunno where the fuck you got that idea from.

[Elro]

Dubya tee eff; I dunno where the fuck you got that idea from.

From here:

"Ooh look, I have no answer to this, you are kicked." This is clear LSI behaviour.

(Note that the original post of this was deleted.)

Her valuing of Ti This, to my mind, is practically unadulterated. Maria will often give off the air that she actually values what others are saying, but in reality, she only does this on the basis that it fits in with her own ideas. She is unwilling to consider anything beyond what she believes any given type should act or sound like.

But fair enough - are these not good representations of your idea of Ti?

[Ezra]

From here:

(Note that the original post of this was deleted.)

But fair enough - are these not good representations of your idea of Ti?

Fair enough. You won the battle, big man. But damn, I am going to beat your ass back to hell when the war comes.

IM EZRA RAWRRR TUFF GUYZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

[Minde]

Do you see him as your conflictor? You said before you did not, I believe.
Hmm, interesting point. Who DO you feel supervised by?

I can't say I "feel supervised" by anyone on this forum.

I don't know yet exactly how to quantify what the relation is. Stickam has helped a little, but nothing definite.

I think I could feel "supervised" by liveandletlive, probably. I remember when she was describing her trip to Europe(?) and some of the problems she was having with her companions. She had some of the same desires that I would have, but she approached the solution in a... way that probably would have been a bit uncomfortable for me. Also, how she deals with printers that don't work. I'd have agreed with her, but... Basically, she seems like an ESTp with Fi. Or an ENFp with Se instead of Ne. Comprehensible yet scary. I'd agree with and like her enough that I couldn't resist her ideas and goals very well. At the same time, I think she'd understand me pretty well and probably like me well enough, too. Hm, that doesn't quite capture it but, oh, well. The conversation is about Ezra, not her.

Anyway, I don't feel supervised by Ezra.

What's your conception of Fi?

My concept of Fi? It's rather hard for me to put into words, I'm afraid. I'm sorry if that sounds like a cop-out. I don't want it like that. Perhaps I will come up with something that works.

But until then, maybe we can take other people's definitions, ones that I think aren't too far off. Joy's, for example:

Look, Gamma Fi presents itself differently in different people. The key is that they are confident in their understanding of their relationships with others and their own likes and dislikes (as well as others). Obviously they won't always be completely certain, but more so than others, since it's one of the aspects that stands out to them.

Are you confident in your understanding of your relationship with others? How about of other people's relationships with each other?

Do you know who your friends are, Ezra? Do you know who likes you? Do you know who doesn't care? Do you know who loves you? And why? Is this something that comes relatively easily to you? Or is it foreign?

There's more to Fi than that, but that's a start, I believe.

[Minde]

Or the SLE might think they know. ;P I've seen that many times. But they are very surprised when they discover that they didn't! People reacting harshly to their rudeness seems to come from out of the blue, since they are not aware of it.

But I am there and I see people's attitudes changing towards the SLE I know all the time, and I tip him off, "You're pissing off that person. You need to stop X action." And the SLE might be like, "Fuck, I don't care." (Because he is enjoying himself.) But then they react harshly to him and when he is confused and tries to write them off I can remind him. ^_^ Eventually he acquiesces my advice, but he doesn't like to feel controlled by rules and limitations on his forms of behavior, so it may take awhile.

True. And, you're right, that's where people who are proficient in that can see what the case really is. And, I'd say from what I've observed that while Ezra has an idea of it that isn't too far off at times, he's still less than skilled at it. Certainly not as skilled as someone with Fi in the ego would be.

See, I'll watch him (like I do others, btw) and think to myself, "Why is he being so open with that person? Sure, they're laughing and joking, but doesn't he see that person doesn't really care at all about him? That they can't be trusted like that? He's giving himself to the wrong people. Etc." (It's a very brief thought, though, and not usually in so many words - because I've long since learned that people rarely like hearing that type of stuff from me. They don't want to be hampered like that. It's their business, too, not mine.)

Also... Gah! I was going to say more but I can't. Words aren't coming tonight.

[Ezra]

Are you confident in your understanding of your relationship with others? How about of other people's relationships with each other?

[...]

Do you know who your friends are, Ezra? Do you know who likes you? Do you know who doesn't care? Do you know who loves you? And why? Is this something that comes relatively easily to you? Or is it foreign?

To be quite honest, I'm oblivious to that. I don't notice the feelings that fly between people at all. I know when someone is annoyed at me, because I can read how they're speaking to me etc., but generally, I have no conception of people's feelings towards me. You know this coloured ribbon shit someone was going on about a while ago; how Fis can sense the different ribbons between individuals? Well, that was incredibly far out to me; I had no idea what the fuck it was talking about. If that is the case with some people, then I am blind to it. In the words of a member of a ghetto, I ain' gaht no fuckin' coloured ribbons goin' between me and they. Waht iz dat shit, man!?

See, I'll watch him (like I do others, btw) and think to myself, "Why is he being so open with that person? Sure, they're laughing and joking, but doesn't he see that person doesn't really care at all about him? That they can't be trusted like that? He's giving himself to the wrong people. Etc."

Be more specific. Who are you talking about?

(It's a very brief thought, though, and not usually in so many words - because I've long since learned that people rarely like hearing that type of stuff from me. They don't want to be hampered like that. It's their business, too, not mine.)

FTR, I like it. Helps me get an insight into my character.

[Gilly]

To be quite honest, I'm oblivious to that. I don't notice the feelings that fly between people at all. I know when someone is annoyed at me, because I can read how they're speaking to me etc., but generally, I have no conception of people's feelings towards me. You know this coloured ribbon shit someone was going on about a while ago; how Fis can sense the different ribbons between individuals? Well, that was incredibly far out to me; I had no idea what the fuck it was talking about. If that is the case with some people, then I am blind to it. In the words of a member of a ghetto, I ain' gaht no fuckin' coloured ribbons goin' between me and they. Waht iz dat shit, man!?

Wow. The ribbon thing actually makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe Fi PoLR should be reconsidered for you, Ezra.

[Ezra]

Wow. The ribbon thing actually makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe Fi PoLR should be reconsidered for you, Ezra.

SEE was pretty much one big joke, to be honest. I was too easily convinced by small pieces of evidence; caught up in making quick, instinctive decisions.

[Minde]

Aww...lol. Well if I think it would help to mention I would mention it. Otherwise if they are enjoying themselves and not in too much danger I won't.

For me it depends on how close I am to them and if I think they'll be receptive. There isn't often that combination of close to me + needing + wanting.

Are you an E9? Minde, people should always value what you say, and I think alot of them do.

Thank you, that's nice of you to say. If I have an E-type it's probably 9w1.

To be quite honest, I'm oblivious to that. I don't notice the feelings that fly between people at all. I know when someone is annoyed at me, because I can read how they're speaking to me etc., but generally, I have no conception of people's feelings towards me. You know this coloured ribbon shit someone was going on about a while ago; how Fis can sense the different ribbons between individuals? Well, that was incredibly far out to me; I had no idea what the fuck it was talking about. If that is the case with some people, then I am blind to it. In the words of a member of a ghetto, I ain' gaht no fuckin' coloured ribbons goin' between me and they. Waht iz dat shit, man!?

Ribbons? Expat talked once about how Fi was like laser beams, is that what you mean?

Be more specific. Who are you talking about?

I was talking about you, but also about other people that I see. What do you mean be more specific? Give you a specific instance involving you and someone else?

FTR, I like it. Helps me get an insight into my character.

What do you mean into your character? Wouldn't it be helping you see other people's character?

And, you'd like it... That's interesting. If you do like receiving that input, then while I still say you're not strong in Fi, I can't say you don't value it.

So, are you saying that while you don't get it at all, you're not adverse to hearing about it? Particularly as it relates to how people feel about you?

SEE was pretty much one big joke, to be honest. I was too easily convinced by small pieces of evidence; caught up in making quick, instinctive decisions.

It made for some interesting discussion, though, didn't it?