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Thread: Enneagram type 4,8 and amorality?

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default Enneagram type 4,8 and amorality?

    In this shoddy Enneagram book I have I was reading about the E4-E8 combination. And the book brilliantly pointed out how both E4 and E8 are "amoral," without really elaborating any further on it.

    I was wondering if any E4s related to "being amoral." (Or E8s for that matter.)

    It sort of struck me as discordant. A note that's a little flat. I can partially relate to amorality but it's something that I don't want "to be" but may tend towards when I don't want to be morally judgmental either. But "pure" amorality, in the form of having no moral compass, that I do not at all relate to.

    Amorality could of course partially be meant in the context of "non-conforming" to the general moral standards of society... which I might think more resonant with E4 and E8.
    Last edited by inumbra; 06-04-2008 at 05:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    In this shoddy Enneagram book I have I was reading about the E4-E8 combination. And the book brilliantly pointed out how both E4 and E8 are "amoral," without really elaborating any further on it.

    I was wondering if any E4s related to "being amoral." (Or E8s for that matter.)

    It sort of struck me as discordant. A note that's a little flat. I can partially relate to amorality but it's something that I don't want "to be" but may tend towards when I don't want to be morally judgmental either. But "pure" amorality, in the form of having no moral compass, that I do not at all relate to.

    Amorality could of course partially be meant in the context of "non-conforming" to the general moral standards of society... which I might think more resonant with E4 and E8.
    I can set aside strict morals when I don't want to be judgmental also. It's kinda bad in a way but I guess I'd like to think that compassion and understanding trumps rules. My ESE husband and I always butt heads over stuff like that. He's pretty strict.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I can set aside strict morals when I don't want to be judgmental also. It's kinda bad in a way but I guess I'd like to think that compassion and understanding trumps rules.
    I tend to think that way as well.

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    strrrng's Avatar
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    I could see them being amoral, as they are the most immersed in their own personal feelings and inner worlds, and thus may develop certain eccentric ways of doing things that don't accord with external rules, i.e., developing fantasies about ways things should be and actually trying to practice these fantasies.

    I dunno though

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    The 8w7 I am married to (ESTJ) is the behavior police (actually in law enforcement btw, how fitting)...anyhow...he can justify any behavior at all in himself (thus the reason we are getting divorced).

    Me, 5w4.........my moral compass is very strong. Perhaps that has to do with my commitment to God and the accountability of it........however even as a young child I walked the straight and narrow because anything other than correct horrified me. Correct was a blend of society/my logic of correctness.
    Again, I am a 4 wing...so maybe it has to do with my 5. Not sure.

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    are any of the enneagram types described as being particularly "moral"? except for type 1s of course

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    inumbra used to be called Loki? And she's been here since 2007? Amazing.

    I think the amorality of the e4 and e8 are actually the amorality of the IEI and the LIE, respectively, and it might be due to their Ni.

    Michael Pierce has something to say about the role of Ni in amorality in this video on IEI's starting at 4:00, but best at 9:45-10:45: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4dLLS-DQfA
    and on ENTJ's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89uYbBOm6fg

    If amorality is indeed a result of strong Ni, then you would also expect ILI's to be fairly amoral (anyone want to weigh in on that here?) and, to a lesser extent, EIE's. Many ILI's are also e5, just as are the extremely moral SLI's.

    Incidentally, I don't think the high-Ni types are without morals. I think they simply have their own morals.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-24-2017 at 10:28 PM.

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    8 : amoral
    4 : wannabee amoral
    6 : firstly wannabee amoral (oh my new moral is that I don't like moral !) then regret it later

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    I can actually kind of see Ni as being amoral. Perhaps it's because their inner sensory perception is distorted. They can imagine very disturbed things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    I don't feel moral ... I just do what makes me feel satisfied. That just happens to be what's moral I guess most of the time, since hurting people doesn't feel good. I guess that's more empathetic, I definitely feel people. My stomach actually is a bit opposed to anything that has to do with morality. It's just so boring and limiting and I hate categories and judging people when I don't feel/know who they are. I don't think I can comfortably combine my feelings with logic.. I may feel repulsed by a person but I can't just logically take that feeling and come to the conclusion that it's ... "wrong", maybe that's just my Asperger's talking. Also why I don't think Fi is morality because otherwise I would be Ti leading, because I don't have the right to impose myself on others (which is also a bit of Se+ polr) and I'm someone who's more "searching" and "learning" that someone who is using what I've learned to affect others.Also emotions are recreational, not a lifestyle for me.

    I don't even see morals basically, so I'm not really non conforming even, just oblivious and careless to what people or myself value.



    I think I'd prefer to observe and note what causes what instead of compulsively identifying every occurence in the world by a value and limiting myself and feeling controlled by such feeling values. I'd rather be someone who knows that for example: "Oranges grow on trees", and be able to tell people that oranges grow on trees so that they can decide for themselves whether it would be morally right for them to grow oranges on trees. "Slapping people hurts the other person" instead of "Slapping people is bad"
    Last edited by Seductress Steve; 01-24-2017 at 10:58 PM.



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    I have a bit of an aversion to the word "morals" because I feel people use them to justify their "goodness" and other people's "evilness" when it is just an individual's perception and lack of understanding in play. It is especially irritating when people brag about their own morality while putting someone else down, not even taking the time to think about the other person and why they may be the way they are or do what they do/did .

    If I use this definition of amoral then I can say yes, by some people's standards I am amoral.

    unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something
    That doesn't mean I don't have my own preference and standards of what I feel is ultimately right or wrong for me to do. There are a lot of gray areas for me too though so the scales never tip too far in either direction of right/wrong. I have plenty of compassion and empathy, even for people those with high morals deem unworthy or trashy.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    I think some people are not comfortable with imposing their own will and beliefs onto other people, but that's not really type related.

    I think Fi is concerned with morality from feelings that "just feels right", even though it may not be logical or even make sense totally. Ti morality has more to do with logical correctness and consistency. I actually see this in difference between Eastern morality (mostly East Asia) vs Western morality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

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    Amorailty, as in unconcerned with right and wrong?
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I dont think any not-unhealthy types are truly amoral (or people, rather), but type 1,2 and 6 lives revolve around right/wrong and moral expectations. Soo... a person with none of those in their tritype are going to be closer to amoral.

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    Same.
    Pookie, often IEI feel there is nothing that can be really discerned as "true" or "false", or why do true have power over false and stuff. Nietzsche even implied that true/false come from a moral choice (the guy got it all at the end). Due to their Ni they can see (or at least doing as if) far more possibility of refinement. At the end Ni "come from Se" wich is like all sensing function concerned with life in it's hollyness, and here there is no definite true and false. This can be an interpretation of why they see that.
    This can explain why they often end in the problem of immorality, for at the end making new moral that become fastly annoying for delta, or sometime wonderfull to defend

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    Quote Originally Posted by noaydi View Post
    Same.
    Pookie, often IEI feel there is nothing that can be really discerned as "true" or "false", or why do true have power over false and stuff. Nietzsche even implied that true/false come from a moral choice (the guy got it all at the end). Due to their Ni they can see (or at least doing as if) far more possibility of refinement. At the end Ni "come from Se" wich is like all sensing function concerned with life in it's hollyness, and here there is no definite true and false. This can be an interpretation of why they see that.
    I dont see what that has to do with amorality
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Every type can be immoral, the balancing act of situational right and wrong transfers to anybody.

    E1 can be immoral in a way that they impose their own hurtful code of conduct on others.
    E2 can be immoral by manipulating others into dependency.
    E3 can be immoral by deception for their gain, oppressing others to shine.
    E5 can be immoral by detaching human value from their distant world views.


    It's a health level question as usual, dependent on how egocentric the person actually is.
    So, every type - including 4&8 - can be SUPREMELY moral.

    E4 can be moral in a way that they can help others with their complexes and suffering.
    E8 can be moral in shielding others and taking down authority that exploits the weak ones.


    So, the distinguishing element: focus on others. Morality is always a question of consideration

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